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 Alpharius wrote:

JD wrote:So, Beasts of War has a video talking about some of the changes to camo in 3rd edition

- attacks made from camoflague are no longer normal roles, they are now face to face rolls. Apparently this rule in 2nd edition caused to many issues with changing the tempo/timing of the game. However, there is now an additional -3 modifier to the ARO roll for being "suprised". So, for example, a TO camo troop revealing himself and shooting at an enemy who shoots back in ARO is being hit on a base -9 (-6 for TO camo and -3 for surpise), -12 if that TO camo trooper is in cover
- no matter how many modifiers are being stacked, no shot will have modifiers greater than +12 or -12, those are the max. So no revealing (-3 for surpise) a TO camo cutter (-6 for TO camo) in cover (-3) at the back of the board (long range -6) to have the target ARO at -18. Its capped at -12. Not huge, but its something.
- the F2F roll for a revealed camo trooper is important when dealing with template weapons (chain rifles, chain colts, flame throwers) as these don't make face to face rolls and ignore the surprise and camo penalties, so camo troops don't want to reveal themselves close to troops with template weapons.

That's a bit of a change - but definitely easier to explain.

I'm wondering how this affects camo attacks in ARO: do ARO camo attacks get the extra -3 modifier for surprise?

That would definitely help balance out the major drawbacks of your opponent getting shots back at you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Regarding the "evolution" of the minis and sculpting: The faces and weapons are way better. And the detail is amazing.

However I really don't care for the elements that have been added in, many of which are pretty typical "macho/heroic" sculpting style elements that other games have already overdone (GW/PW) and which I loved CB for leaving out.

These include:
-big shoulderpads;
-everyone being a bodybuilder;
-powerarmor suits with skinny little legs that a human couldn't fit inside;
-backpacks on everyone, probably to bulk them up.
-less crouching poses, more static "I'm a bodybuilder rraagh" poses
-squarish armor

IMO the last issue is the most serious: the rounded, Shirow-inspired aesthetic of the best older models has been left behind rather than refined. CB would be much better served making their digital sculptors get better at making anatomically correct sculpts and distinct rounded shapes, which will make them look less like everyone else's products. They are losing both a lovely aestethic and one of their competitive advantages.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the figs. The new Alguaciles are amazing. But the Fusiliers' over-fed/over-equipped look is not good. Nor is the HI that a human can't actually fit inside of.

CB can do better than this, and I hope they will.

Having more squared off armor makes sense in a few cases. Like Haqqislam.

I for one don't mind more troops wearing backpacks, either. The old Fusiliers, for example, were seriously lacking in equipment. Where were they keeping spare magazines for those huge guns?

And, to be fair, the legs (and arms) being way to skinny on the power armor has always been an issue. How is anyone supposed to actually fit into the Wu Ming or the newer Janissary armor?

Speaking of, I'm loving the new redesigns. I'm not sure why they seem to be updating the basic Ghulam designs along with the specialists, but they look good. So does the new HMG Janissary. I'm not a fan of the skinnier PA for the Janissaries, but it works out great for the Ahl Fassed, which is what I'll be using him as.

Also interesting that they're redesigning the Hac Tao again. The HMG version was already a slight redesign of the Multi-Rifle version. I'm surprised they're not going to just stick with that version.

 Savnock wrote:
-squarish armor

IMO the last issue is the most serious: the rounded, Shirow-inspired aesthetic of the best older models has been left behind rather than refined. CB would be much better served making their digital sculptors get better at making anatomically correct sculpts and distinct rounded shapes, which will make them look less like everyone else's products. They are losing both a lovely aestethic and one of their competitive advantages.

This depends on the aesthetic they want for the faction. As mentioned, it works for Haqqislam. In the art book, they said they wanted them to look high tech, but more utilitarian high tech, not the sleek and expensive high tech of Pan Oceania and Yu Jing.

This resulted in the more angular armour we saw starting with the Jannisary redesign in the starter, as opposed to the rounded-to-the-point-of-looking-anti-aliased remotes and Maghariba Guard. Also the addition of enough pouches to make Rob Leifield jealous on some units, like the Muyibs.

 Daba wrote:
Nice summary, Alkasyn.

Is that 1-10 list the best sellers? Though there's no Penthesilea who was apparently the best selling ever, or is it within a specific time period?

First of all its a list of top ten boxes not blisters, from what I remember it includes boxes that have at least older than 6 months to clear out the new releases spikes from their data.

Okay, sure: squarish armor works for Haqq. And more kit is okay.

But the squaring-off has definitely infected YJ and Nomad power armor, and it's reducing the cool curved surfaces.

Barzam, now that you mention it the legs on most PA were already too small, see it now. But the new suits' topheaviness just emphasizes it even more.

And nobody in their right mind should go for moar shoulderpad these days. Upping shoulder armor is lame.

Anyways, enough negativity. Even with a few faults CB's figs are still far and away the best scifi gaming stuff out here IMO.

 Savnock wrote:

Regarding the "evolution" of the minis and sculpting: The faces and weapons are way better. And the detail is amazing.

However I really don't care for the elements that have been added in, many of which are pretty typical "macho/heroic" sculpting style elements that other games have already overdone (GW/PW) and which I loved CB for leaving out.

These include:
-big shoulderpads;
-everyone being a bodybuilder;
-powerarmor suits with skinny little legs that a human couldn't fit inside;
-backpacks on everyone, probably to bulk them up.
-less crouching poses, more static "I'm a bodybuilder rraagh" poses
-squarish armor

IMO the last issue is the most serious: the rounded, Shirow-inspired aesthetic of the best older models has been left behind rather than refined. CB would be much better served making their digital sculptors get better at making anatomically correct sculpts and distinct rounded shapes, which will make them look less like everyone else's products. They are losing both a lovely aestethic and one of their competitive advantages.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the figs. The new Alguaciles are amazing. But the Fusiliers' over-fed/over-equipped look is not good. Nor is the HI that a human can't actually fit inside of.

CB can do better than this, and I hope they will.

I do not get the big shouderpads comment as the pic illustrates, there has been no significant change in the shoulderpad ratio from almost 10 years ago to now.


It is logical to have a well developed body in miniatures that represent a professional soldier and the fact that everybody commented on the lack of webbing on normal troops when dire foes appeared with webbing is the real reason on why the new models appear with backpacks not to "bulk up the models", now not all factions share the same aesthetics, some are more round, some are more squarish, depending on faction.

 PsychoticStorm wrote:

 Daba wrote:
Nice summary, Alkasyn.

Is that 1-10 list the best sellers? Though there's no Penthesilea who was apparently the best selling ever, or is it within a specific time period?

First of all its a list of top ten boxes not blisters, from what I remember it includes boxes that have at least older than 6 months to clear out the new releases spikes from their data.

For anybody who has not seen it, and thanks to Alkasyn


Cajas Top 10 ventas= Boxes Top ten sales. Lovin' the Spanglish there. La Real Academia Española is dispatching operatives to Vigo even as I type

Your box came in 4th, PS. Good show. I guess the GoT theme to Fleeting Alliance really helped that box. Sadly, Angus's box is not up there. Poor Angus

I feel people vastly underestimate Bipandra.

Poor Angus indeed.

In what way?

Why? I've never seen a mini so obviously have a great (if somewhat intoxicated) time of it!

I think I've seen him converted with a beer can in his arm. Fitting.

People focus too much on her costing 0.5 SWC and ignore how great she really is for PanO.

With that one, you basically get 2 PanO as the 'civvie' is still a Fusilier. Maybe a significant number of sales are to do with what civvie model there is?

Though maybe it could be game effects too. Oda is quite good, maybe that's true for the other popular DF boxes?

Which boxes would one expect to be popular? the O-Yoroi is what drew my attention to Infinity so maybe that's why it is up there? And biker girls seem popular too.

 Savnock wrote:
... Nor is the HI that a human can't actually fit inside of.

The digitally sculpted HI are designed by starting with the same human dolly that's used for that faction's LI and adding on extra layers of armour on top of the LI and MI designs. In other words, all the new HI actually have a human inside.

There's some mention of this in the BoW 'Designing Operation Icestorm' video but the seminar at the Interplanetary went into more depth.

I sort of agree with the roundedness compared to more crisp-edged new designs, but apparently that's to make the models nicer to paint and to help distinguish the separate elements of each design. Kneepads on the fusiliers were given as an example, the transition from fabric on the thigh to the kneepad was accentuated to make it clearer that it's two different materials.

I think the more gear is definitely a good thing, you can only burst 3-5 so many times on one magazine before it starts getting silly

like Bolts, Bipandra will have more sense in v3 ... i hope
Bipandra is a nice mini but not competitive imo
PanO dont waste order to heal they kill stuff

that 10 box list is very strange, ALEPH support pack ? oO there must be a lot of ALEPH player

From experience everybody was puzzled on "why Bipandra" then realized how good troop she is, regardless, here is today's video.

Weapon ranges!

Really like those range bands. Good to see sniper rifles start working like sniper rifles.

I've run Bipandra and Trauma Doctor, there wasn't any noticeable difference in performance.

They seriously changed the weapon's range.

About Bipandra: in Neoterra, Fusiliers are AVA 5. One of the link dies, you simply replace him with Bipandra. Also very useful when link members go down. Really, I'm *perfectly* happy paying that 0.5 SWC for Bipandra - it's a great unit.

Also, WIP 13; that's 65% likely to heal, vs 75% for a really, really good doc. TBH, I don't see why PanO shouldn't heal - when it's appropriate (as with all factions, ever). The times either my doc or my engineer got a crucial unit back on it's feet... I've lost count.
Bipandra is almost worth it just for the sixth fusilier (especially when playing an HMG, 2xML link, hehe) let alone the doc options. Also, specialist, so only 9|0.5 more expensive than the paramedic you want as a specialist anyway - so even outside of links, she's okay.

As for taking docs/mechanics in PanO: they're 4/5 pts more expensive than the cheapest (25mm-based) ordermonkeys you have. I find it easy to find a place in my lists for those. YMMV, but I find many players discount support staff for PanO more because it's somehow become forum gospel rather than on own experience.

Cool, shotguns sound pretty slick now, especially the combi or rifle plus light shotgun. I can maybe buy the range penalty on the sniper rifle.. hmg worse at close range seems odd though... i mean i see what they're doing for game balance, and i really like that, but it's i dunno less believable in some ways.

Certainly it looks to make the game look potentially more fun, which is totally cool. Which is how they explain it, they're not aiming as much for realism as playability, probably a good call.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for taking paramedics and so on... even if they only had 10 wp, having a chance to get one of your dudes back up seems pretty... well, important. Plus all of that mission gobbledegook i don't understand yet.

I think the idea is that HMGs and support weapons are more unwieldy in close quarters.

I remember what you've said, you're willing to pay the SWC tax for NCA link team. I agree that you'll get more mileage in the link team, since you can also snatch objectives with her and the causalities will be right near her. Doctor has 60% to pass and Bipandra has 65%, honestly not making a difference. Outside of the sectorial... for now I can spend those points elsewhere and not regretting anything. YMMV indeed.

I run Doctor and Engineer on regular basis and they make a difference, though you wish you wouldn't need them. Doesn't change the fact they'll be the joke of every other player with gloriously superior WIP.

To be fair, most (all?) Dire Foes tend to be good in their sectorial and add something, but outside of it are a bit average.

So... Are Spitfires and Molotoks the same weapon now?

Edit: the only difference I've been able to think of is that the Molotok is not vulnerable to E/M.

 Savnock wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:

JD wrote:So, Beasts of War has a video talking about some of the changes to camo in 3rd edition

- attacks made from camoflague are no longer normal roles, they are now face to face rolls. Apparently this rule in 2nd edition caused to many issues with changing the tempo/timing of the game. However, there is now an additional -3 modifier to the ARO roll for being "suprised". So, for example, a TO camo troop revealing himself and shooting at an enemy who shoots back in ARO is being hit on a base -9 (-6 for TO camo and -3 for surpise), -12 if that TO camo trooper is in cover
- no matter how many modifiers are being stacked, no shot will have modifiers greater than +12 or -12, those are the max. So no revealing (-3 for surpise) a TO camo cutter (-6 for TO camo) in cover (-3) at the back of the board (long range -6) to have the target ARO at -18. Its capped at -12. Not huge, but its something.
- the F2F roll for a revealed camo trooper is important when dealing with template weapons (chain rifles, chain colts, flame throwers) as these don't make face to face rolls and ignore the surprise and camo penalties, so camo troops don't want to reveal themselves close to troops with template weapons.

That's a bit of a change - but definitely easier to explain.

I'm wondering how this affects camo attacks in ARO: do ARO camo attacks get the extra -3 modifier for surprise?

That would definitely help balance out the major drawbacks of your opponent getting shots back at you.

Yes?

At least, as far as we know right now!

I'm rather happy with the HMG getting a close range reduction. I mean you could argue that it's less maneuverable and easy to get snapped on a close range target, which is what things like the Sptifires are for.

But gameplay wise it means my HMG actually sits back and performs a proper supression/support fire role, allowing the 'lighter' equipped units to be more door to door.

So no more Nisse Rambo for me. Huzzah! Hexas you're back in the game.

Cool changes

Really like those changes. It will give some real choice in list building now. HMG's are no longer going to be the go to weapon for raking up kills at all ranges.

Boarding shotguns are going to be seeing a lot of use I think, especially amongst infiltrators and AD troops. Maybe even in backfield support troops to defend against said infiltrators and AD troops.

Good going CB. Can't wait to see N3 in full.

No kiddin', I make extensive use of Boarding Shotguns already, now hopefully they'll be even more fun.

Interesting. I use a lot of snipers, boarding shotguns and spitfires so let's see how that goes.

Boarding Shotgun Tiger Soldier going to be a solid pick now?