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Eldar EML on AGP firing Plasma.

And how many players rolled a 1 to wound? (increases the survivability of Eldar heaps thou)

I doubt most of these rumors. The MC thing is weird.

However, this move would make sense for GW. And those Nid Zilla players have no grounds to cry. You lost your abilty to be super shooty. I lost my LatD when the chaos codex came out. A few hundred in bugs tops, I had 400 in mutants alone.

Besides, with these rumors think of cheap HTH carnis running across the board screening Feeder Tendril stealers and guants, allowing everything to reroll missed hits.

Zilla will still be good, just in another way. And be thabkful you have an army. I lost my White Scars, LatD and soon my 13th company.

Aduro wrote:Isn't it a nerf to Perils? Befor it was a str 6 hit which allowed no saves. That's an Instant Death for alot of psykers out there. Now it's just a wound, and allows invulnerable saves, even if you have to make it twice that's still better than no save.

Yes it's a nerf to players if by nerf you mean "balanced so marines don't get instakilled while Eldars do".

Wouldn't a limitation on Rending put the tank-busting emphasis on stuff like Carnifix units. Running might put them in the running for anti-tank duty. Sounds like an excuse for Godzilla armies to me. And fun ones, with classic configurations like the old Screamer Killer posture.

Fallen668 wrote:
Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this).

Is it just me, or is this no fun at all?

Dead Horse wrote:

Fallen668 wrote:
Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this).

Is it just me, or is this no fun at all?

The best armies out there are "Troops" dominated. More fun to play against, and more effective anyway.

...it must be just you...and others.

WC_Brian wrote:
As far as Nidzilla being nerfed due to inability to kill vehicles... I don't see it. The average vehicle is not nearly as survivable. [...] Only Land Raiders, Monoliths and tanks sitting in cover are happy about the new rules. Everyone else got at least a little nerfed.

Nope. In terms of survivability, only holofield vehicles got nerfed (mobility/scoring considerations are another matter). Non-skimmers benefit from the rumored gentler damage table and can potentially get cover saves. As for skimmers, a penetrating hit (assuming the new chart still holds) on a SMF has 3/2 the odds of downing the skimmer as it did when glancing in 4th ed. (4-6 vs. 5-6). A 5+ cover save reduces the hits to 2/3 of what they'd be otherwise. 3/2 x 2/3 = 1. Same odds. And that's ignoring the fact that some hits will still only glance (e.g., every single venom cannon hit), and those are much weaker (again, assuming .pdf rules except as contradicted by new rumors); it also ignores the fact that damage prevented by a cover save has no effect at all, so there'd be fewer shaken/stunned/weapon destroyed results to boot.

Holofield skimmers only become (potentially) less survivable because the nature of holofields makes the damage table more important (statistically) than the cover save.

So yes, armies that had a hard time killing vehicles will have at least as hard a time now (mostly harder), unless we're talking about falcons. With gunfexes losing a portion of their firepower if the one-weapon rumor is true, and the rumored damage table weakening the glance-only venom cannon, tyranids suffer triply against vehicles in the current-rumor 5th ed. rules.

Ironically, as someone else pointed out earlier, this may actually hurt non-zilla nids more than godzilla. In the latter, the dakkafex can be replaced by the elite BS + scytal, no biomorphs carnifex and still be pretty good at killing troops (better against some hordes), while also adding some okay anti-tank (S8 shot that rarely misses something as large as a vehicle? Yes, please!). The gunfex is weakened, but overall the list could still put out a reasonable amount of high-strength long-range firepower.

It's the "balanced" tyranid armies that really needed strong anti-tank from their one or two gunfexes, and those are the tyranid lists that would be most hurt by the rule, not the godzilla lists the rumored change is presumably intended to rein in.

Iorek wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It's ninnyhammer, you peevish officer!

Neal Stephenson begs to differ (that's where I got my spelling, anyway; I'm sure it's archaic).

Ninnyhammer is old-fashioned -- that spelling is what you find in a modern dictionary. The spelling 'ninehammer' would be archaic (or even made up) presumably within the Baroque Cycle? In the 17th century people spelt things however they thought best.

Another thought about true LoS rules... If you have a forest composed of tree models are you allowed to move the tree models to allow a model to move into the forest?

Deadshane1 wrote:

Dead Horse wrote:

Fallen668 wrote:
Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this).

Is it just me, or is this no fun at all?

The best armies out there are "Troops" dominated. More fun to play against, and more effective anyway.

...it must be just you...and others.

True, an IG list that skims on Heavy Support to cram in a few more infantry platoons is a barrel of laughs... Nothing quite like using 120 useless grunts to gain access to a handful of lackluster heavy weapons and plasma guns.

The armies that are Troops dominated are not more fun to play or more fun to play against.

Unlesss I"m totally mistaken, the rumor isn't that MCs can't shoot two weapons, it's that they can't move and shoot two weapons. My response to that isn't so much "Nidzilla gets what it deserves" as it is "Welcome to how every other tank in the game works." If my tanks can only move and shoot 1 weapon plus S4 guns, why would an MC be able to shoot two heavies?

That sounds good, Polonius. At least people will still be able to play their SST-like big bug armies.

The armies that are Troops dominated are not more fun to play or more fun to play against.

Careful what you say! Do you want the fun police to hear you?

I rather like games involving basic troops. I think the best introduction to Warhammer 40k is a game between two Imperial Guard Infantry Platoons.

Because 40k should be like WW1?

No.

The best introduction to 40k would be an IG Infantry Platoon against a pile of Gaunts.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Dead Horse wrote:

Fallen668 wrote:
Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this).

Is it just me, or is this no fun at all?

The best armies out there are "Troops" dominated. More fun to play against, and more effective anyway.

...it must be just you...and others.

Yes, nothing beats my 10 marines fire at your ten marines.

6 hits 3 wounds one dead.

Now your marines fire at mine....

The only advantage that greater numbers of troops (what a joke that term is for those of us who have played for a great length of time) is that GW sells more models from the plastic sets that were at the base of each army. I miss the percentage divisions of the old days.

And as to more fun to play against, I suppose even masochists deserve fun, even if they never finish a timed game ever. Nothing says fun like little Timmy trying to move 150 orc grunts and grots.

As for more effective, well that sure is GW's biggest problem in a nutshell. If they are more effective then the same number of points of elites, it sure says everything about the job that has been done at balancing costs.

play.

I also fail to see how moving matters other than for vehicle mounted blast weapons. What are the assault blast weapons or the heavy weapons that can fire while moving other than for vehicles?

Deathspitters, Barbed Strangler, Cyclone ML, afore mentioned grenade launchers and eldar missiles, dark eldar have an assault blast weapon (name escapes me).

Also looks like BoLS have pulled the rumors of MC only firing one weapon completely, since the rumors are contradicting each other.

Only Land Raiders, Monoliths and tanks sitting in cover are happy about the new rules.

I dunno, fortuned eldar vehicles are pretty damn happy. Hammerheads in cover (or with fileds) are happy as is my predator (Ar13 in cover is pretty damn resiliant). My rhinos are happy, as are the guys inside (more resiliant plus no entangle FTW). My land speeders, not so much but that is as much to do with scoring rules which makes them hardly worth fielding (not a bad thing i guess, cause the last minute scoring run was kinda dumb imho).

As far as Nidzilla being nerfed due to inability to kill vehicles... I don't see it.

Well the nerf really affects non nidzilla lists the most. Rending can't really dent vehicles (max is glance ar13) and 2-6 venom cannon shots just isn't enough with all the increased resiliency. Blowing 113 points on a close combat elite carnifx so it can try and chase tanks for 6 turns is not gonna fix that for the non-zilla lists.

You guys do realize that theses are all rumors right? that means that some of them might not even be real.

Weclome to Dakka.

Polonius wrote:Unlesss I"m totally mistaken, the rumor isn't that MCs can't shoot two weapons, it's that they can't move and shoot two weapons. My response to that isn't so much "Nidzilla gets what it deserves" as it is "Welcome to how every other tank in the game works." If my tanks can only move and shoot 1 weapon plus S4 guns, why would an MC be able to shoot two heavies?

MC's moving and shooting just one weapon would be a good start to make tanks on par with them. The other thing would be to make extra armor stage crew stunned to shaken and crew shaken to no effect. That would be tops, and I hope they do it.

Deadshane1 wrote:

Dead Horse wrote:

Fallen668 wrote:
Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this).

Is it just me, or is this no fun at all?

The best armies out there are "Troops" dominated. More fun to play against, and more effective anyway.

...it must be just you...and others.

Well, I meant that they had to be infantry. I like that troops score, but I think anything taken as troops should. Makes ravenwing and jumpy blood angels kinda useless instead of tactically interesting armies that trade numbers for mobility.

The .pdf going around doesn't seem to corroborate that rumour about Monstrous Creatures being brought into line with vehicles, but as time goes on there seem to be more and more details up in the air.

There is a rumour about Dreadnoughts not being able to move and shoot two main weapons, which might be what people are thinking about.

The pdf going around is old as he11...it doesnt mean a thing...of course, these new rumours might not mean a thing either when it comes to MC's.

Dreads are walkers, walkers cannot move and shoot 2, pretty well established according to the new rules. However, someone who's into the rules enough to research and post rumours...I doubt they dont know the difference between MC's and walkers.

Aduro wrote:The only non-heavy blast weapon I can think of is a Grenade Launcher firing frag.

Tau Airbursting Fragmentation Projector
Black Templar Holy Orb of Antioch
Tyranid Deathspitter
...

That's off the top of my head.

DE Shredder.

I don't think there're many more.

I´m buying 3 more Tempest launcher Dark Reapers to replace the Falcons, who needs to move, 90 cm bubble of doom yeah!!

M.

My Eldar will need a bit of a tweak, but there's just so many contradictory rumors flying, I'll have to wait until I see the finished rulebook. Nine Warwalkers seem to be very viable in the upcoming edition, however.

Aduro wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:On the subject of "true line of sight"

...I wonder what this will do for the players that enjoy the simplicity of using simply a peice of green felt on their tables to represent a woods terrain peice.

I was discussing this with a friend. I'd wager it will end up working that forests will no longer block LOS thru them, but they'll still grant cover.

Or just agree that trees/buildings etc (whatever is rpresented by the felt) are up to the loevel of the tallest mini in the game. Frankly we'll have to discuss that anyway with our limited number of real trees, which are often moved around when they get in the way of placement. I'm not playing captain laser light. The only laser that should ever be used is at a bank meeting or the business end of pistol (for better hallway vision).

Deadshane1 wrote:

Dead Horse wrote:

Fallen668 wrote:
Missions:
Scoring units must be BOTH Troops and Infantry (it is unknown if jump infantry count towards this).

Is it just me, or is this no fun at all?

The best armies out there are "Troops" dominated. More fun to play against, and more effective anyway.

...it must be just you...and others.

Someone rid me of this meddlesome priest...