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I had no clue there was this much disdain for the performance of the average guardsman.

I've played IG since I started 40k in 2002, I started posting on the old RGMW at the same time, and I started disagreeing with John soon after; and I totally have his back on this one. The IG trooper, for sheer game balance reasons, needs to be kept weak. I hate to beat a tired drum, but IG revolve around the heavy and specials, with the lasguns chipping in a bit here and there. The worst part of this discussion is that people seen to think that the basic troops of other races are magically capable. Look at guardians, or DE warriors or even Tactical Marines. To what extent do the basic troops rock, and to what extent do the heavy/special combo do more damage?

there is a unit in 40k with an awesome, long range basic gun with high strength. however, Fire Warriors aren't exactly spammed in tau lists.

The current IG squad is 60 pts. No other army has access to a base squad that cheap that can also take heavies and specials. A price drop will help balance things out (especially with the shift from 1850 to 1500 as the new standard).

People here seem to question what the "IG Essence" is. It's simple: mulitple relatively small, fragile units packing 2 powerful weapons and a bunch of chumps.

We've been using Hellguns like this for a while now:

Standard - R24" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire
Overcharged - R24" S6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!

Works wonders.

BYE

H.B.M.C. wrote:We've been using Hellguns like this for a while now:

Standard - R24" S3 AP5 Rapid Fire
Overcharged - R24" S6 AP4 Rapid Fire/Gets Hot!

Works wonders.

BYE

do you up the price of stormtroopers, or is this just an admission that Stormtroopers are easily 2-3pts overcosted?

People here seem to question what the "IG Essence" is. It's simple: mulitple relatively small, fragile units packing 2 powerful weapons and a bunch of chumps.

This is what the rules have made of it; it doesn't follow that this is all it should be.

GW keeps ratcheting up the costs on Guard heavy/special weapons (lascannons & plasma guns), because they feel there are too many of them. But they don't give us any other way to play the list, so we just pay more for the guns, and trim out even more of the "fun" elements - Guard army construction is a simple exercise in "how many heavy weapons can I fit in this point level, while including 1 counter-assault element and 2 token mobile elements for occasional objective-taking."

This is a horrible approach to what should otherwise be a characterful army.

The IG are not Space Marines. That doesn't mean that they are a bunch of hive gangers, rounded up and issued their weapons Stalin-style. They're not even simple planetary militia. They are a professional fighting force, trained and equipped to the best of their planet's abilities, backed by the best of humanity's armored vehicles, and seconded to the Imperium to confront the overwhelming majority of the dangers that confront Mankind. Show a little respect!

Malfred: the only "mass fire" rule that comes immediately to mind (and would be actually useful) would involve some sort of auto-pinning, e.g., a unit fired on by more than 20 lasguns in a given turn is automatically pinned as they seek cover from the sheer weight of fire.

Or else give markerlight-like benefits for each squad dumping fire into a target....

The IG are not Space Marines. That doesn't mean that they are a bunch of hive gangers, rounded up and issued their weapons Stalin-style. They're not even simple planetary militia. They are a professional fighting force, trained and equipped to the best of their planet's abilities, backed by the best of humanity's armored vehicles, and seconded to the Imperium to confront the overwhelming majority of the dangers that confront Mankind. Show a little respect!

The problem here is that the same description is given to Tau firewarriors and the only reason they get by is due to their 4+ save, guns, and markerlights. Sadly the IG don't get such saving graces.

Wow, ok. The basic IG trooper isn't a conscript bullet catcher, that's what actual, you know, conscripts are for.

Take a quick look at a single Marine shooting at orks. He gets one shot at long range. 1 shot --> 2/3 hit --> 1/3 wound. Now, a single guardsman at the same range. 1 shot --> 1/2 hit --> 1/6 wound --> 5/36 failed saves. In simple, basic gunnery, a marine is just barely twice as good as a trooper, for 2.5 times the price!

It's admittedly tough for lasguns to kill marines (it takes 18 lasgun shots to drop a marine) but it's not like bolters are tearing through marines (it takes 9 bolter shots to drop a marine) either. Now, it's usually trickier to bring that many lasguns to bear compared to bolters, but I think that my point holds.

When compared to Orks, it takes 7.2 lasgun shots to kill an Ork, while it takes 6.75 shoota shots to kill a trooper. That's pretty close, and considering Orks are agressively (if not under) costed, while IG are very conservatively (and most likely over) costed.

My point is twofold: access to heavy and special weapons is an incredibly valuable asset to the IG, while the basic trooper is not as currently valueless as people claim (especially once compared to the basic troopers of other races).

Once the IG drop in cost a little, and the chimera get's its long overdue points drop a la Razorbacks (it is infuriating that the DA can take twin linked lascannon for cheaper then I get a ML/HB) the IG will develope into a more interesting army.

finally, I know you were joking, but as a person with 7000 points of fully painted IG, I have plenty of respect.

By your calculations, the Marine is ~2.4 times better at killing Orks than a Guardsman is. If that's "barely twice as good," then a Marine is pretty much "barely twice the price."

tegeus-Cromis wrote:By your calculations, the Marine is ~2.4 times better at killing Orks than a Guardsman is. If that's "barely twice as good," then a Marine is pretty much "barely twice the price."

A poor choice of words, no doubt. I meant just over twice as good for 2.5 times the price. My point is that it's hard to call lasgun toting IG bad when they are ~42% as good at shooting for 40% the cost. Space marines are at least three times as durable and far better in HtH, but in terms of actually shooting lasguns, IG simply aren't awful.

Something has to be worst. It just does. An IG trooper, as glorious and wonderful as he may be, is a crappier combatent than anything in 40k except grots and possibly spinegaunts. That's just the truth, and it's hard to imporve on the basic IG trooper without upsetting a lot of balance.

Why?

Lets posit-same price. Same stats.
Lasgun A2 R24" Str 3 Ap-

How does this unbalance, well anything?

Is it unbalancing in that it will make the IG too good? No. It's actually a pretty interesting idea. The problem is that it turns the lasgun into a very effective mobile firepower weapon, as well as being twice as good at range.

Let's call these things lasrifles. Lasrifles would be almost as good at 12"-24" stationary as marines with bolters, superior at 12"-24" while moving, and would be far better for moving, shooting, and assaulting. In short, IG could move and shoot quite well at range, on the move. I like the idea of long range guard, I like the idea of short range and assaulty guard, and I like the idea of mobile guard. All three things at once? In the same unit?

Keep in mind that Swooping hawks pay through the nose for lasblasters (and wings and fleet and aspect profile and greandes, but my point remains) and for IG to get them for effectively 1 point (to make up for the long rumoured price drop) would be odd.

The problem here isn't that lasguns are too crappy (they are exactly as crappy as they should be) it's that shootas got too good. The price drop, the range bump, and the switch to assault 2 made them stupidly good. Still, orks can't take reliable heavy weapons in their squads (although they can take a Nob with claw), so it makes a bit more sense that shootas marginally outperform lasguns.

I think I agree with your broader point, which is that IG should be more than stand and shoot. I'm with that 100%, but in an environment where only very elite units get 24" assault 2 basic weapons (termies, GKs, hawks), I'm not sure that's the way to bump up IG's mobility. I'd do that with cheaper chimeras and sentinels, Assault 2 grenade launchers, etc.

I agree with the fact Lasguns arent any good, their modern day equivilant would appear to be glow sticks...

Guard either need to be Cheaper of have slightly better guns in some way-longer range maybe to be of any worth

Something to keep in mind: EVERYTHING you're comparing the Guardsman with is better in HtH than he is. Nearly everything (save the Ork) has a better save than he does.

If the marines and orks would agree to just stand over yonder and trade shots with me at 24", the current lasgun is fine. The problem is that the shoota is coming CLOSER (and let's not neglect the rokkits that are in that essentially fearless mob), and I can't maintain range while shooting.

A drop in points is not a solution here - you can make the Guardsman 2 pts (though the studio would then jack heavy/assault prices through the roof), and it won't fix the issue: you can't get enough of them on-target to have any significant utility. If you try, you cluster so many bodies in so small an area that a single assault unit can chop through half of your army. (And let's not pretend that weight-of-bodies will be any disincentive to an assault army, not when it takes 18 Guardsman to kill 1 MEQ.)

If the IG are meant to be a shooty army, then they need to have the tools to be so. Unless GW really, really wants a pure, static gunline (boring for everyone concerned), some "fix" to allow for mobile firepower is pretty much required.



Note that I don't expect any of this to happen. I fully anticipate a 1 pt drop in the Guardsman, and a 5 pt bump to both lascannons & plasma guns; net effect, zero change. Combined with the return to 3rd ed vehicle pillboxes (with "vehicle cover saves" replacing the mandatory "hull down"), it's a return to 3rd ed guard. Hopefully, we'll at least get semi-useful Ogryn back, and maybe some new horses to go with them.

Storm Lord wrote:I agree with the fact Lasguns arent any good, their modern day equivilant would appear to be glow sticks...

Guard either need to be Cheaper of have slightly better guns in some way-longer range maybe to be of any worth

there is, on this very forum, a serious discussion about if Dire Avengers are a good unit. This is a unit, which, as a base gun, has effectively an 18" assault 3 bolter. This is one of, if not the best, weapon in 40k, and people still argue that it's not worth taking.

What is my point? that all basic weapons suck! Lasguns are the worst (save maybe grot blasters), but there's not much you can do to lasguns to make them much better. To make my point, you can currently buy sharpshooters for any squad. 1pt a model, and they are effectively BS3.5. It's not worth it. Why? Because no matter how good your basic shooting is, it pales compared to your specials and heavies.

Janthkin wrote:Something to keep in mind: EVERYTHING you're comparing the Guardsman with is better in HtH than he is. Nearly everything (save the Ork) has a better save than he does.

If the marines and orks would agree to just stand over yonder and trade shots with me at 24", the current lasgun is fine. The problem is that the shoota is coming CLOSER (and let's not neglect the rokkits that are in that essentially fearless mob), and I can't maintain range while shooting.

And the IG can take a special and heavy in every squad at BS3, something that more then makes up for it. IG can take, enough flamers and pie plates to clear hordes and enough plasma to cut down MEQs at the same time!

Don't get me wrong, i think IG need improved coutner charge elements, and I'm aware that the enemy is coming closer. Fixating on making the lasgun better doesn't fix the problems IG have, it just means slightly better performance from lasguns.

And the IG can take a special and heavy in every squad at BS3, something that more then makes up for it. IG can take, enough flamers and pie plates to clear hordes and enough plasma to cut down MEQs at the same time!

A whirlwind is just as effective at killing Guardsmen, as a battlecannon is at killing Marines (except cheaper, and easier to hide than a Basilisk).

Guard don't need better counter-charge (though Ogryn should be improved back to semi-usefulness). Guard are *weak* to assault, with just enough counter-assault to kill off a small incursion, typically through sacrifice of a unit (Rough Riders/suicidal platoon command squads with plasma/melta/flamers). They need a design theme - either they are supposed to be a boring, purely-static gunline (which makes cheaper grunts marginally better, though I still think net-change will approach zero), OR they need enough effective mobile elements to make a game of it.

(You responded too fast to my last post - I edited in additional thoughts. )

Janthkin wrote:

And the IG can take a special and heavy in every squad at BS3, something that more then makes up for it. IG can take, enough flamers and pie plates to clear hordes and enough plasma to cut down MEQs at the same time!

A whirlwind is just as effective at killing Guardsmen, as a battlecannon is at killing Marines (except cheaper, and easier to hide than a Basilisk).

Guard don't need better counter-charge (though Ogryn should be improved back to semi-usefulness). Guard are *weak* to assault, with just enough counter-assault to kill off a small incursion, typically through sacrifice of a unit (Rough Riders/suicidal platoon command squads with plasma/melta/flamers). They need a design theme - either they are supposed to be a boring, purely-static gunline (which makes cheaper grunts marginally better, though I still think net-change will approach zero), OR they need enough effective mobile elements to make a game of it.

(You responded too fast to my last post - I edited in additional thoughts. )

Two things:

1) I'd argue that boring static gunline is going to be the IG's theme: they've effectiely eliminated the option from Chaos, and Space Marines are next. I don't think it's horrible for the game to have one army with a strong gunline/firebase, etc.

2) I contest that even now, IG are a truley static army. Show me an IG player that never moves, and I'll show you an IG player that loses a lot. There is nothing you can add to the basic guardsmen to make him a truely effective mobile threat. A cheaper transport, coupled with continued access to tons of specials, can make for an interesting mobile shooting army.

Your argument seems to be that IG aren't very good, so giving htem an usual weapon (the lasrifle) will make up for it. You're still counting on 16 S3 shots to accomplish anything, which isn't exactly the path to awesome.

Now, giving stormtroopers an assault 2, 18" S4 ap- gun, and/or allow them a ton of specials, would really, really help add mobile firepower. Allowing armored fists to take two specials and/or shotguns would help. Adding a cheaper rhino/trukk style transport would help. I'd like all of those over the lasrifle.

I wonder if a nice addition might be prepared positions. Perhaps for a small points fee, or even free, guard get a +1 to the cover save and count as being in difficult terrain. Maybe put a little breastworks/sandbag line in front of each unit to represent them digging in and preparing defensive structures.

Ok, probably worth +1 pt per model, but that might help a bit with their survivability, though it would make the static gun line more favorable early game.

I like HBMC's hell-gun upgrade too, since that goes in well with the fluff of over charging/under charging lasguns.
Perhaps every las guns should have 2 settings, one S3 Ap- Rapid fire, then S5 Ap5 Rapid/Gets Hot!. That would be an interesting change, and allow a little more tactical flexibility.

Except everyone would always use the overcharged mode, because what are you shooting at that isn't worth frying a few Guardsmen to kill? In 5th, with Gets Hot! supposedly going back to its 3rd ed. version, you lose what, 1/5th of the Guardsmen firing when you double-tap. A small price to double your kills against T4.

Polonius wrote:

Let's call these things lasrifles. Lasrifles would be almost as good at 12"-24" stationary as marines with bolters, superior at 12"-24" while moving, and would be far better for moving, shooting, and assaulting. In short, IG could move and shoot quite well at range, on the move. I like the idea of long range guard, I like the idea of short range and assaulty guard, and I like the idea of mobile guard. All three things at once? In the same unit?

1. Respectfully how are two shots with BS3 / Str 3 significantly better then 1 shot at B34 / Str 4?
shots BS S to wound T4 wounds
guard 2 0.5 0.33 0.33
marine 1 0.66 0.5 0.33

2. How are two shots at BS3/Str3 AP- better than two shots with BS4/Str4 AP5 at short range?

3. Technically it could help with assault but I'm trying to avoid breaking a rule with a special rule. Rapid Fire weapon is more appropriate with 24" rapid fire range.

1)Well, I said they're almost as good at 12-24, so yeah, they break even on

2) They're not better at short range. They're better at moving, shooting, and assaulting then bolters, because bolters can only do two of those things. If I can double tap and then charge with my IG, they don't become close range beasts but they're pretty good for 6pts.
2 shots 1 hit, 1/3 wound and
2 attacks 1 hit, 1/3
total of 2/3 wound

Marines:
2 shots, 4/3 hit, 2/3 wound or
2 Attacks, 1 hit, 1/2 wound

For being 6 pts compared to 15, I know which one I like better.....

3)if your arguement is that all rapid fire weapons should be able to move and shoot once at 24", I'm in total agreement. I jsut think that that the IG, one of the least rule dependent armies out there, is a bad place to fix that.

If you want to modify and make it a special weapon with a 24" rapid fire range I'd be ok with that.

If models wielding Lasguns always counted as stationary for the purposes of firing, and Guardsmen were 5 pts/model, we'd have a pretty good start.

The IG has something of a problem in that it tries to combine several very different ideas. There's some early generic 'Space Army Men' stuff, the WWI-inspired influence, and other sources. The Gaunt's Ghosts novels added their own influences, and the various detailed legions expand this to countless more influences... Catachans from various 'jungle fighting' influences, etc. Then all the older metals, the Forge World, etc.

To be honest I still feel that IG should be the 'zero point' for 40k, as opposed to the Space Marines. But that's unlikely as we're getting another 'revision' edition.

5pts with Close Order Drill, free Vox-casters and Sharpshooters would be good.

The problem definately seems to be a question of target saturation. You can only get so many guardsmen pointed at the same target, and they are fairly ineffective when they do it. Guardians are S4 AP5, Orks are 18" and Fire Warriors are S5 AP5 30". Everything else is pretty elite, comparatively.

The other thing they could do is get 3 shots when they rapid-fire. I was also thinking 12-15 man squads, since 12 will fit in a Chimera. Ditto the option of two specials. Just to make their role less of a gunline.

Polonius wrote:do you up the price of stormtroopers

Of course not. Stormtroopers aren't worth 10 points in GW's rules.

And even if they were, I wouldn't up the price in them with the overcharge rule, as the Gets Hot! is the balance. It's like a Plasma Gun. Probably worth 15 points on a Marine, but priced at 10 (or, it was priced at 10) because it can kill you. Anything that can kill you just by using it gets a price break.

Our Storm Trooper units are basically:

10 Points Each
WS3 BS4 S3 T3 W1 I3 A1 Ld8 Sv4+
5-10 Storm Troopers
Weapons: Hellgun + Frag/Kraks + Targeter (+1/2 range if stationary)
Options: Up to 4 models can take Special Weapons
Special: Deep Strike, Infiltration, Night Vision, Stubborn

What this means is that they replace Hardened Vets as the designated 'suicide unit', and can be competative in non-Guard armies (like an Inquisitorial Storm Trooper army). One of our aims was to make everything useful. In the current Guard Codex Storm Troopers are not useful. There's nothing that they do that H-Vets can't do better for less or equal points.

The only problem is we've yet to 'nut out' what H-Vets do now...

BYE

Isn't the real core problem this:

If you have an army that relies on concentrating fire from a dozen cheap units onto one expensive enemy unit, you need to have the ability to concentrate that much fire or it won't work. Isn't that why we are talking about increasing their abilities instead?

Possible solution:
Allow guard in 5th to fire through their own units. Use whatever justification pleases you.

I'm working on a homebrew rewrite of the Guard Codex. I haven't had the opportunity to really playtest this to any great extent - it's more for my own amusement. I'll put it up on Dakka's Article system once I've finished.

CK

Hellfury wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:The Imperial Guardian should be saddled with what is clearly and unquestionably the worst weapon in game, and that should be a 24" S3 AP- Rapid-Fire gun.

Great point. So guardsmen just need to suck? Thats all they get? Just reduce the point cost and call it a day?

While I agree with you on some level, there has to be more than "I just stand here waiting to die really, thats my job. A placeholder until the spaz marines get here". Giving guardsmen a billion heavy weapons may be effective, but the snoozfest that will ensue will make many IG players happy, I am certain.

That my friends, is TACTICS!

I really hate to not offer a better solution than the one I am criticizing, but I honestly think that the simple cost reduction doesn't trump a more drastic and, frankly, interesting proposal that Janthkin made.

For some insight, I'll ask you how crappy Empire is in WFB. The answer is that Empire is quite good, despite having Men who are utter crap. Empire wins from having good options and good rules built around their Men.

Guard can be the same way. The basic Guardsman is nothing more than a pretty 4-pt wound marker who is lucky if he does cause any damage whatsoever. But he should have access to Heavy & Special weapons at reasonable cost, along with inexpensive Chimera transport for mobility and protection that make him worth much more from a tactical standpoint, especially with his friends supporting him.

jfrazell wrote:Fluffwise one aspect of the guard is overwhelming grunt firepower, not massed heavy weapons (referencing Gaunt, 15 hours, Legion). Its literally the death of a thousand flashlights that does the damage.

Making the guard the red headed step child

I'm not proposing Ginge Guard. I'm proposing a crap Guardsman with good options, in quantity. And while flashlights sound good, I'm guessing your Fluff authors have never actually played Guard for 40k.

Stupid Imperial recruiting posters and propaganda...

Necros wrote:I like the idea of a str 4 hellgun. Personally, for any army I build there's either AP3 or nothing. I rarely take a gun based on it's AP, I take it for it's str, because the higher that is, the more wounds I can cause and the more potential for the other guy to fail a couple.

QFT