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Thank you for beautifully encapsulating why, IMO, PP is losing it.

Read this Now:


Full disclosure: I am a Privateer Press fanboy and press ganger, but I am still
also a big fan of Games Workshop's models.

I went and edited posts doing the PP vs. GW thing.

If you disagree, feel free to flag my post or pm me or even yak. The problem
with these conversations is that they're never constructive and turn into all
out flamefests. Heck, I even hate posts about any new product that gets
peppered with alternatives to other companies. The news and rumors forum
is for showcasing news and rumors. I interpret that both sides of this debate
are being impolite in their treatment of others when really both sides should
be firmly in the middle, appreciating models regardless of company.

That does not mean we are not meant to be critical or constructive. However,
by firmly placing yourself in a camp and declaring the other to be wrong, I think
you are automatically surrendering your objectivity.

Like or dislike, I am doing this until someone with an actual pay grade stops me.

If you're going to mod that much of this thread (and I'm sorry, I don't think you should have as most of it was pertinent to the pricing release of the Colossals, none of it was overly combatative, etc) you may as well lock it. You've gutted so much of it while maintaining posts that allude or respond to modded posts that reading the thread no longer makes sense.

I believe your status as a press ganger is far too much coloring your heavy handed modding here. Comparing the pricing of these Colossals to comparable GW models is integral to determining a market value for them. The fact that you've kept the references to the infinity models only further proves your bias.

I respect the fact that you're making an attempt to "keep the peace," but I think you overstepped here just a bit.

My moderating of the thread follows my post to stay on topic.

Again, you can take it up with me in pms or with yak or, heck, even nuts and bolts.

cincydooley wrote:If you're going to mod that much of this thread (and I'm sorry, I don't think you should have as most of it was pertinent to the pricing release of the Colossals, none of it was overly combatative, etc) you may as well lock it.

Going back to the price arguement that sparked the whole GW/PP pissing match - I think the Ork Megadread is the closet GW product in size and scope to the Colossal. However, the two products can not be directly compared.

The Megadread is 71GBP (~$111.32USD as of March 9 2012). It can only be used with the accompanying Forgeworld book (ownership of core rules assumed) and not in tournament play. The Megadread is entirely resin, arguably better detailed, and presumably, made to order. It is only available from Forgeworld (with bonus crazy S+H prices) and comes shipped in a non-descript cardboard box with some stickers denoting its contents.

The Colossal's MSRP is reputed to be $135USD. It comes with the rules needed to use it. Usable in tournament play (presumably). The Colossal is a hybrid white metal resin kit. Arguably LESS detailed than the megadread. Designed for mass market (though with PP's supply problems, it might seem that they are made to order) with accompanying full retail packaging. Available (again, depending on supply issues) from your FLGS and most e-tailers. Likely at 20% off from the latter coming in at $108USD.

So, in conclusion, any assertion that GW would charge more for a similar model is clearly untrue. However, the assertion that the Colossal's price is unacceptably high is also incorrect. They are actually very close in price for similarly sized resin models, despite being marketed at different targets and have differing in game use. These days, prices are pretty much at parity.

cincydooley wrote:If you're going to mod that much of this thread (and I'm sorry, I don't think you should have as most of it was pertinent to the pricing release of the Colossals, none of it was overly combatative, etc) you may as well lock it. You've gutted so much of it while maintaining posts that allude or respond to modded posts that reading the thread no longer makes sense.

I believe your status as a press ganger is far too much coloring your heavy handed modding here. Comparing the pricing of these Colossals to comparable GW models is integral to determining a market value for them. The fact that you've kept the references to the infinity models only further proves your bias.

I respect the fact that you're making an attempt to "keep the peace," but I think you overstepped here just a bit.

100% agree.

I just got a flashback to PP's forums. I was pissed off with their aggressive moderation, but it's their company and their models, so they can do whatever they want. That's why I went from an active participant to an occasional visitor.

However, this isn't their forums, and this level of moderation rubs me really wrong. Personally, while off topic, I honestly didn't see it becoming any sort of flame, just a(n admittedly repetitive) discussion of pricing, and it really feels like it was ended to defend PP, not to encourage discussion. If the topic changes, it changes.

malfred wrote:
Read this Now:


Full disclosure: I am a Privateer Press fanboy and press ganger, but I am still
also a big fan of Games Workshop's models.

I went and edited posts doing the PP vs. GW thing.

(…)

However, by firmly placing yourself in a camp and declaring the other to be wrong, I think
you are automatically surrendering your objectivity.

Like or dislike, I am doing this until someone with an actual pay grade stops me.

I normally don't call people out on anything I feel really matters, but this stinks of hypocrisy, and doesn't befit mod behavior.

malfred wrote:
Good stuff.

I support it. Guys, stop being dicks. Talk about PP. Talk about the new model. Then go enjoy the weekend. Me, I'm going to a British Pub in Houston with my girlfriend, my buddy, and his wife.

malfred wrote:
Read this Now:


Full disclosure: I am a Privateer Press fanboy and press ganger, but I am still
also a big fan of Games Workshop's models.

I went and edited posts doing the PP vs. GW thing.

If you disagree, feel free to flag my post or pm me or even yak. The problem
with these conversations is that they're never constructive and turn into all
out flamefests. Heck, I even hate posts about any new product that gets
peppered with alternatives to other companies. The news and rumors forum
is for showcasing news and rumors. I interpret that both sides of this debate
are being impolite in their treatment of others when really both sides should
be firmly in the middle, appreciating models regardless of company.

That does not mean we are not meant to be critical or constructive. However,
by firmly placing yourself in a camp and declaring the other to be wrong, I think
you are automatically surrendering your objectivity.

Like or dislike, I am doing this until someone with an actual pay grade stops me.

In theory, I do not disagree with this statement. That being said, as SpiralingCadaver commented, this smacks of hypocrisy. Where is this kind of knee-jerk reaction when anti-GW hate-threads reach into their 20th page? Where is this kind of reaction when PP fanboys (of which I am one, and I will be purchasing two stormwalls at the earliest possible moment) derail entire threads with their OMG-another-price-hike rants, even when the thread has nothing to do with pricing? I'm not trying to pick on Malfred, I think he does a bang-up job as a Mod, his just happens to be the relevant post in this thread. The dicotomy that exists within how Mods treat "thread derailing comments" of GW supporters versus GW haters is blatant, and unfortunate. The whole derailment of THIS thread is a direct result of that dicotomy, and those of us sick of how GW is lambasted simply for being successful find it beautifully ironic that everything we predicted about the future of PP is coming true.

Of course, I fully expect this comment to be Moderated out of existence, but it has to be said. Hopefully the Mods have the courage to recognize the truth in this and going forward will be a little more fair in their duties.

Well put.

Considering that every PP thread or every GW price thread usually devolves into:

"PP are the same price as GW!"
"But you don't need as many!"
*argument goes in circles forever*

... I'm glad Malf killed all the posts. Means we can get back on topic.



Have PP talked about the other big Jacks? Like will the Cryx one be some sort of four-legged monstrosity?

im just going to say this:

GW hate threads appear and are sustained mostly by their own merits. GW does something stupid (measurable in an objective sense) and detractors and fans alike provide the fuel for the fire. There might be pro-PP or Pro Malifaux or whatever grumblings thrown in the mix but overall the people who complain are the fans. Current and Past fans.

with PP being the new kid on the block people seem to be compelled to compare GW and PP. Everyone does it. Is it fair? No. Is it expected? Yes. You cant have a PP thread without the inevitable comparisons because GW IS the watermark.

this is the inherent difficulty in moderating a PP post gone wrong. PPvGW comparisons go awry a moderator (regardless of who it is) is left with the unenviable job of refereeing and no matter what, it will look like the moderator has taken sides.

Lets all admit it. There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.

Proof? You're arguing about model aesthetics and GW-PP price per model correlation. Theres no way to argue that one out objectively unless youre talking about material weight by the effing gram!

I say we just lock this thread.

i can understand and tolerate fan-boy-ism but the new trend of faux-objectivism posturing in this thread was sad.

Bakerofish wrote:with PP being the new kid on the block people seem to be compelled to compare GW and PP

PP is more than 10 years old. I don't get why people keep thinking of them as the little company that could, or whatever.

Lets all admit it. There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.

I don't have a problem with that, so much as the mod response. Personally, I would have much preferred a lock to rampant censorship that felt like PP favoritism.

spiralingcadaver wrote:

Bakerofish wrote:with PP being the new kid on the block people seem to be compelled to compare GW and PP

PP is more than 10 years old. I don't get why people keep thinking of them as the little company that could, or whatever.

Lets all admit it. There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.

I don't have a problem with that, so much as the mod response. Personally, I would have much preferred a lock to rampant censorship.

And to follow up on this point, the "pissing match" was particularly apt to the discussion, as a major factor in this discussion was the sticker shock of a $135 Land Raider. Or maybe the Tervigon is a more appropriate comparison. Whatever. As the sticker shock of the model in discussion was part of the conversation, the "we told you so"s that predicted such models and prices up to 10 years ago when PP first got started, are also relevant to the discussion. To said that the "pissing match" was unwarranted or not appropriate to the theme of this thread is to be out-and-out naive. Or - trying to think of a nice way to say cowardely - simply to maintain a gentile tone in the thread.

Was the tone unfortunate? Perhaps. Unwarranted? See my post above about bias in moderating said threads.

H.B.M.C. wrote:<snip>

Have PP talked about the other big Jacks? Like will the Cryx one be some sort of four-legged monstrosity?

Going off the artwork shown in the video it seems like a mechanical squid, possibly an octopus.

As for the Stormwall, yep I want one.

mr badmek wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:<snip>

Have PP talked about the other big Jacks? Like will the Cryx one be some sort of four-legged monstrosity?

Going off the artwork shown in the video it seems like a mechanical squid, possibly an octopus.

As for the Stormwall, yep I want one.

I seem to remember reading somewhere that it had legs, like a Leviathan, somewhat, and the tentacles are in addition to...? But that may have been conjecture, and not fact.

@deathgod

I guess the biggest problem with what youve said so far is youre forgetting a simple truth:

The GW-Hate threads are usually started by GW Fans. Current or otherwise.Their criticisms are inherently GW centric so any moderation in that situation is easier to keep "fair"

PP threads get moderated or locked because of a GW vs PP attitude. Any moderation AT ALL will seem like taking sides.

WarStore newsletter came in:

SKU Description MSRP TWS
PIP 31050 Cygnar: Stormwall Colossal (resin and metal) ~ JUN $134.99 $107.99

So there you go. You want this but don't want to pay $135? How about $108 then?

Bakerofish wrote:There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.

And I missed it!!! I wanted to see Aggy's post.

Gotta agree that the mod action in this thread typifies exactly what was wrong with the privateer Press forums. The same sort of selective editing and squashing of anything that wasnt praise was silly at times..

Spiraling Cadaver pretty much nailed it.


So let me leave you with a PP forum approved closing message:


Thanks PP for a super great model. It is super neato and I plan to buy a couple of them. God bless Matt Wilson and all the awesome hard work of the studio staff and the mods here11111111

@CT gamer

*looks at the start of the posts*

the criticisms are still there. Intact. The instigating posts aren't.

whats your point?

.

-=Edit= Since I posted this, there have been several snarky comments posted. If you're not discussing the Stormwall, it's off-topic. A few warnings have been sent.

QUIT IT.

DeathGod wrote:That being said, as SpiralingCadaver commented, this smacks of hypocrisy. Where is this kind of knee-jerk reaction when anti-GW hate-threads reach into their 20th page? Where is this kind of reaction when PP fanboys (of which I am one, and I will be purchasing two stormwalls at the earliest possible moment) derail entire threads with their OMG-another-price-hike rants, even when the thread has nothing to do with pricing?

Hypocrisy? Really?

All of the moderators see threads that veer slightly off-topic and into well-trodden discussions like the ones you mention. Sometimes we let them slide, or post a simple reminder to stay on-topic. Sometimes we do what Malfred did here, and removed a great deal of back-and-forth vitriol that isn't meaningful discussion about the new release. Just because we do this sometimes, and not all the time, doesn't mean that we are hypocritical about this. It's always been rather popular to lash out at moderators (not just here; any place with moderation will get this), but you have to realize that we're here to make things run more smoothly overall. Sometimes we miss things; I personally spend about an hour a day on Dakka Dakka, and I barely scratch the surface of the content (it's about 70/30 for pleasure reading/moderation).

It oftentimes comes down to the amount of effort required for a cleanup. I'm guessing that Malfred spent a good half-hour cleaning up this thread; that's a non-trivial amount of time for someone with a full-time job. We simply can't do it all the time, nor do I think we need to. Malfred clearly stated his biases in his post; it's not like he's hiding something (and he's not a GW opponent either; the man paints a LOT of miniatures).

We understand that posters can get nervous when Mods swing the big ol' Mod Hammer around like Malfred did. The thing is, we don't do it often. We use it when our frustrations have reached a breaking point, and we use it to make a point. I personally detest these 60-page News and Rumors threads that require 10 minutes of digging to find all the good bits of information; I feel that people's opinions of what's new (or even worse, wishlisting) don't add to the thread at all, especially comments like "Wow, this is so cool!" or "It's about time". This has become more of a problem in the past few years as Dakka's membership has grown.

Going back to your original points, we have seen many anti-GW threads and price hike threads, but most of them are in Dakka Discussions or 40K General Discussions, where they belong. They don't belong in News and Rumors.

I'm going to stop this here to keep it from being too much of a Stormwall of text (hah hah! Lorek's a lamer). I hope I've shed some more light on things from the moderator side though.

H.B.M.C. wrote:WarStore newsletter came in:

SKU Description MSRP TWS
PIP 31050 Cygnar: Stormwall Colossal (resin and metal) ~ JUN $134.99 $107.99

So there you go. You want this but don't want to pay $135? How about $108 then?

Bakerofish wrote:There WAS a pissing match going on and NONE of the sides were being objective.

And I missed it!!! I wanted to see Aggy's post.

Bogus post. You have to use the MSRP or else a box of terminators is actually only 37.50.

Also, remember this whole "pissing match" was started because a Surtur decide to make the claim that "if it were FW it would be over $200"

ANYWAYS. The model is still an expensive model. The price, I would argue, is worse because it is "allowed in regular play". It's going to prove to price some folks out of being able to use it, and if the rules are good, isn't that exactly the type of situation they want to avoid?

cincydooley wrote: It's going to prove to price some folks out of being able to use it, and if the rules are good, isn't that exactly the type of situation they want to avoid?

this is only a problem if having a colossal distinctly puts your opponent at an immediate disadvantage or if the colossal is a must-have for every warcaster. Im having trouble seeing any of the infantry-based casters fielding them.

so far with Warmahordes, and as proven by the war engines, you dont need to have the big shiny toys to win. I dont see that changing with the arrival of the colossals at all.

If its something that you feel you must have then youll have to save up for it like anything really.

You dont need to buy it...but you will need to know how to kill it.

cincydooley wrote:Bogus post. You have to use the MSRP or else a box of terminators is actually only 37.50.

Bogus what? That's the Warstores discount price on this model nimrod - they are charging $107.99 for it, as per their newsletter. There's nothing bogus about it.

Here are all the others:

SKU Description MSRP TWS
PIP 31050 Cygnar: Stormwall Colossal (resin and metal) ~ JUN $134.99 $107.99
PIP 31093 Cygnar: Artificer General Nemo Epic Warcaster & Storm Chaser Adept Caitlin Finch Solo ~ JUN $21.99 $17.99
PIP 60005 Infernal Contraption, 2nd Edition ~ JUN $21.99 $17.99
PIP 73063 Legion of Everblight: Captain Farilor & Standard Blighted Nyss Legionnaire Character Unit Attachment ~ JUN $22.99 $18.99
PIP 75034 Minions: Road Hog Heavy Warbeast ~ JUN $47.99 $38.99

SKU Description MSRP TWS
PIP 33098 Khador: Allies Kayazy Assassins Unit ~ MAR 14 $49.99 $39.99
PIP 35034 Retribution: Banshee/Daemon/Sphinx Heavy Myrmidon Kit (plastic) ~ MAR 14 $34.99 $27.99
PIP 35045 Retribution: Hypnos Character Heavy Myrmidon Upgrade Kit ~ MAR 14 $12.99 $10.99
PIP 72057 Circle Orboros: Feral/Pureblood/Stalker Warpwolf Kit (plastic) ~ MAR 14 $34.99 $27.99
PIP 72062 Circle Orboros: Ghetorix Character Warpwolf Upgrade Kit ~ MAR 14 $16.99 $13.99
PIP 74063 Skorne: Venator Slingers Unit ~ MAR 14 $49.99 $39.99
PIP NQ41 No Quarter Magazine #41 ~ MAR 21 Street Date $7.50 $5.99

Using it as the "standard price" is disingenuous at best. You can't assume everyone is able to get product at discount is the point I'm trying to make. You and me and lots of others know there are places to get your stuff for cheaper, but for folks w/o credit cards or in similar situations where they have to purchase at MSRP from an LGS using a discounted price for what a model can potentially be had for is incredibly misleading. Plus it would be $112 after shipping ;-)

cincydooley wrote:Using it as the "standard price" is disingenuous at best.

I never claimed it was the standard price, nor did I present it as the standard price. In fact, I showed the standard price and the discounted price.

cincydooley wrote:You can't assume everyone is able to get product at discount is the point I'm trying to make.

And not the point I was making. I was just showing a place where people could get it at a discount - nothing more. And why wouldn't everyone be able to get that discount? There's no worldwide embargo on shipping PP products outside of the US as far as I'm aware.

Just going to point out that we have some actual scale comparison photos of the Conquest next to Khador troops and the thing is easily 7-7.5" tall. It is, in fact, larger than the Mega-dread (which is closer to 5-6" at most) and only a bit shorter than the Warhound (which is around 8-9"). Not saying $135 isn't steep but this thing is approaching Titan size. Considering I spent $100 on an HHT-90 for Heavy Gear I think I will be saving for one of these guys for my Khador force.

But yeah, they are about 1-2" shorter than a warhound and come in at a third the price which isn't too shabby. They also take up a fair chunk of points on their own so they are a healthy chunk of an army in one package. Finally, they, like war engines, are likely not going to be a requirement in competitive play. So yeah, these guys are definitely for fun. I was originally going to pick up two of them for a Karchev list but they are much bigger than I thought they would be originally so I think I'll make due with one (and probably run Harkovich instead ).



Edit - Huh, added 10" to everything, stupid working late. In any case fixed. Also a Warhound is about 10.5".

That Conquest is only about ten inches tall, not seventeen. The base is five inches wide, and that thing is not more than three times the height.

Ronin_eX wrote:Just going to point out that we have some actual scale comparison photos of the Conquest next to Khador troops and the thing is easily 7-7.5" tall. It is, in fact, larger than the Mega-dread (which is closer to 5-6" at most) and only a bit shorter than the Warhound (which is around 8-9"). Not saying $135 isn't steep but this thing is approaching Titan size. Considering I spent $100 on an HHT-90 for Heavy Gear I think I will be saving for one of these guys for my Khador force.

But yeah, they are about 1-2" shorter than a warhound and come in at a third the price which isn't too shabby. They also take up a fair chunk of points on their own so they are a healthy chunk of an army in one package. Finally, they, like war engines, are likely not going to be a requirement in competitive play. So yeah, these guys are definitely for fun. I was originally going to pick up two of them for a Karchev list but they are much bigger than I thought they would be originally so I think I'll make due with one (and probably run Harkovich instead ).



Edit - Huh, added 10" to everything, stupid working late. In any case fixed. Also a Warhound is about 10.5".

I think that you haven't ever actually seen a Warhound In person. They are considerably taller than 8-9 inches. Plus they're wide. A Titan foot wouldn't fit on a 120mm.

@HBMC - there are PLENty of reasons one wouldn't be able to get one at a discount. You clearly didn't read my full post so I'll restate: no credit card to order online. If you don't have one and your LGS doesn't discount, you're paying full price.

H.B.M.C. wrote:WarStore newsletter came in:

SKU Description MSRP TWS
PIP 31050 Cygnar: Stormwall Colossal (resin and metal) ~ JUN $134.99 $107.99

So there you go. You want this but don't want to pay $135? How about $108 then?

That's silly. I always take it into account that I buy everything at ~20% off before I start bitching about prices. It's why I think PP missed the boat at not pricing it at $125 - then, with discounts it gets neatly to 100 or under. Anything over $100 for a single mini (even a not-so-mini one) and I start to get REALLY picky about them.