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You're reusing the same one old model? Pathetic. Try comparing the commissar to something else? Try looking at the marines, the eldar, the Imp Knight. Not just find a model that is pretty poor (clearly fantasy) and keep harping on about it.
And no competition in war games would be privateer press and the like not some little hobby shop producing the odd models. I looked at PP and I thought the designs and sculpts were terrible.
Davor: You are right the choices of what to sculpt has been terrible of late admittedly, I mean a santa sleigh? But then again they've always seemed to have a child like interpretation of SW. Wolfy Canis Dog Lording Wolfborn, Half expected them to replace longfang missile launchers with a wolf on a stick firing out howls.
Basically I'm absolutely certain these things and a lot of the other problems mentioned are dragging GW down and really making it a frustrating hobby at times. But they are very good at some of what they do and the competition seems pretty poor in comparison. A lot of this is subjective of course.
What exactly makes Beast 09 crap, beyond the fact you apparently don't like the aesthetic? Besides, if you're talking about comparing sculpts, you're comparing a character to a Warjack. Compare a Dreadnought to Beast 09.
Here's a better comparison:
GW:
Spoiler:
Not GW:
Spoiler:
Those two figures are pretty comparable IMO. A slightly different look as one is a sci-fi Commissar, and the other is basically a steampunk Commissar; Kommandant Irusk has slightly more small detail, but is slightly more chunky. But by all means go ahead, say how the PP figure is "crap" presumably because it's not a sci-fi Commissar with a laspistol.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/31 22:51:31
Well yeah I'd still say that is pretty crap in comparison. Aesthetics, detailing etc. A lot of subjective but a little objective in my critique.
But I know, I know how much the interwebz just loves to hate GW and god forbid that you could criticise them and give them their dues at the same time!
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Well yeah I'd still say that is pretty crap in comparison. Aesthetics, detailing etc. A lot of subjective but a little objective in my critique.
But I know, I know how much the interwebz just loves to hate GW and god forbid that you could criticise them and give them their dues at the same time!
We do give them their dues; very few of us have said that GW figures are bad, we've said they aren't worth anywhere near the price they are asking and that other games are cheaper. It's always the pro-GW people who will make comparisons based on quality, aesthetics, etc. and use that to somehow justify paying $30 for a plastic monopose figure or hundreds for an army.
Hell I've even said many times that I want to play 40k again, but I cannot justify spending the money on a starting army when I can buy a normal-sized army for other games.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/31 22:54:18
Jaq Draco lives wrote: You're reusing the same one old model? Pathetic. Try comparing the commissar to something else? Try looking at the marines, the eldar, the Imp Knight. Not just find a model that is pretty poor (clearly fantasy) and keep harping on about it.
And no competition in war games would be privateer press and the like not some little hobby shop producing the odd models. I looked at PP and I thought the designs and sculpts were terrible.
Firstly, I've been editing extra images back into my post, so go take another look.
Secondly, I'd recommend adjusting your tone, you're coming across a little rule one-y
Thirdly, competition, in wargames or any other business is exactly what I said it was, and won't cease to be that because you said so, sorry kid.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Most of this is subjective so we'll just agree to disagree young man. On the competition point I fundamentally disagree but forget it, no interest in going on about it.
The quality of sculpts is irrelevant to the problems of GW which mostly relate to how they treat their customer base anyway.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/31 22:56:17
It really isn't, the only thing in this discussion that's subjective is if one likes or doesn't like a specific sculpt by a specific company.
I will grant that you appear to have a specific agenda, and unless you're willing to open yourself up to the possibility that people don't "hate" (shudder) on GW just because, that further discussion is moot at this point.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Jaq, just because you love the IP doesn't mean GW makes a good game. In fact, the game frequently goes against the fluff.
The Beast 09 figure I find to be awesome, better than a SM dreadnaught. But that's subjective.
Another subjective. The Taurox, santa's floating bathtub and Murderfang McMurderson I find to be somewhat embarrassingly awful miniatures.
Finecast being crap, is not subjective.
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Most of this is subjective so we'll just agree to disagree young man.
The quality of sculpts is irrelevant to the problems of GW which mostly relate to how they treat their customer base anyway.
The problem is what they charge not the quality of sculpts.
No, by and large it is what they charge and the quality of their sculpts.
Together those make up the quality known as Value - and how they interact determines what the Value of a miniature is.
By and large, GW makes better looking miniatures than Mantic - but I have bought a heck of a lot more Mantic over the last year or two than GW over the last five years. (With the two most recent years registering zero in the GW column.)
In that case it is the price.
I have bought resin steampunk miniatures that cost more than most GW miniatures - and I felt that they were worth the money - in that case the Value came from the quality of the sculpting.
GW needs to improve Value, whether by lowering prices or increasing quality. *EDIT* Or increasing what comes in the box - be it number of figures or options... but adding a choice between flamer, melta-gun, or plasma-gun does not add as much value as adding in a second squad - nor does having options to turn Witch Elves into uber-elite Witch Elves - since the squad will only be one or the other.
As it stands, they are just not worth the money that they are charging for miniatures that are made of either high impact plastic or really crappy resin. (I like resin - but Finecast is just not a good example of the material.)
$105 for a two frame plastic Nagash? Uhm... no. For that exact same amount of money I could get a Leviathan from Dreamforge - a better model, larger, with a heck of a lot more poseability.
That Leviathan has more Value, at least to me. (And would be easy to turn into something a it more steampunk.)
The Auld Grump
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/31 23:46:10
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Yeah well a night out in the UK gets you 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos.
ONE FETHING NIGHT OUT.
So a month of Saturday night outs is £240. I just took a 1500p list and priced it up and it came to £249 exactly (the one with no Wraithknights on front page) so its the equivalent of 4 nights out but unlike the nights out you have a lot to show for it and no crabs or liver trouble, Chuck in a codex and rule book and we are getting pricier and I am in agreement these things are a bit ridiculous.
So the fact is people do not place appropriate monetary value on what is giving them countless hours of enjoyment and no hangover. Unless you play and beer like me then you get both.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and a PS4 costs what? Before you buy any games?
1) 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos costs £95
2) Where are you going on a night out that costs £95?
Bottle of spirits: ~£15 (+ ~£5 for coke/lemonade/whatever to mix if you want) Bottle of wine: £7-10 20 pack of carlsberg: £15
So, pick your poison. That will come to around £20 max
Then pre-drink until tipsy/drunk.
So then you're apparently spending £75 on getting to where you're going, paying entry, buying more drinks then getting home.
So again, where are you going that costs that much?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/09/01 00:37:25
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Yeah well a night out in the UK gets you 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos.
ONE FETHING NIGHT OUT.
So a month of Saturday night outs is £240. I just took a 1500p list and priced it up and it came to £249 exactly (the one with no Wraithknights on front page) so its the equivalent of 4 nights out but unlike the nights out you have a lot to show for it and no crabs or liver trouble, Chuck in a codex and rule book and we are getting pricier and I am in agreement these things are a bit ridiculous.
So the fact is people do not place appropriate monetary value on what is giving them countless hours of enjoyment and no hangover. Unless you play and beer like me then you get both.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh and a PS4 costs what? Before you buy any games?
1) 2 boxes of space marines and two rhinos costs £95
2) Where are you going on a night out that costs £95?
Bottle of spirits: ~£15 (+ ~£5 for coke/lemonade/whatever to mix if you want)
Bottle of wine: £7-10
20 pack of carlsberg: £15
So, pick your poison. That will come to around £20 max
Then pre-drink until tipsy/drunk.
So then you're apparently spending £75 on getting to where you're going, paying entry, buying more drinks then getting home.
So again, where are you going that costs that much?
2 Pints Sea Dog Stout - $10.
Movie tickets for 2 - $25.
Latest season of Sherlock on DVD - $40.
Waking up the next morning next to your girlfriend - priceless.
And that boxed set of Sherlock is going to take more than a night, so that $40 will be shared over a full week. (The downside... Megan has a thing about Cumberbatch. )
Also... we skipped the movie, and went straight to the Sherlock. (We wanted to see a movie, but not any of the ones that were playing.)
Also, Sherlock is really good - my hopes were low, but they shattered by how much we enjoyed that series.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
TheAuldGrump wrote: 2 Pints Sea Dog Stout - $10.
Movie tickets for 2 - $25.
Latest season of Sherlock on DVD - $40.
Waking up the next morning next to your girlfriend - priceless.
And that boxed set of Sherlock is going to take more than a night, so that $40 will be shared over a full week. (The downside... Megan has a thing about Cumberbatch. )
Also... we skipped the movie, and went straight to the Sherlock. (We wanted to see a movie, but not any of the ones that were playing.)
Also, Sherlock is really good - my hopes were low, but they shattered by how much we enjoyed that series.
The Auld Grump
I like the cut of your jib, sir
Though when it comes to me and my girlfriend a single series of a tv programme usually doesn't last a week. We're binge watchers
The Laws of Thermodynamics:
1) You cannot win. 2) You cannot break even. 3) You cannot stop playing the game.
Colonel Flagg wrote:You think you're real smart. But you're not smart; you're dumb. Very dumb. But you've met your match in me.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: But I know, I know how much the interwebz just loves to hate GW and god forbid that you could criticise them and give them their dues at the same time!
'The internet' doesn't 'love to hate' GW.
GW cop a lot of criticism, certainly. In most cases, they've earnt it... but they still get plenty of credit where it is due, as is evidenced by the release threads for any of their better models... see the News and Rumours threads for the new Stormtroopers and Knights (at least up until people saw their rules) as a couple of examples straight off the top of my head.
The big problem with GW's model range isn't so much quality as it is consistency. Yes, they have some excellent models in their range. But some of the stuff that gets approved for release (pumbagore being a prime example, or Murderfang more recently) just leaves people scratching their heads and wondering how these models can co-exist in a range that includes stuff like Nagash and Lelith.
heartserenade wrote: GW's quality can't be matched? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
have you at least tried looking at other ranges? Have you seen Finecast?!?
But their website told me they make the best miniatures in the world.
They couldn't say that on the internet if it wasn't true, could they?
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Also, GW is more expensive than my other new hobby: boxing. I don't need to buy things anymore, I just have to get punched a lot.
Does that mean GW is expensive when I compare it to that? See how absurd it is if you compare two entirely different things? Everything would be expensive if your hobby is like, collecting local twigs.
Hey, you may think twiggery is cheap when it's done casually, but once you get into competitive twigging (and, God help you, Pooh Sticks) then it's just a money pit...
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Azreal13 wrote: Hey, you may think twiggery is cheap when it's done casually, but once you get into competitive twigging (and, God help you, Pooh Sticks) then it's just a money pit...
I... thought those were Pocky.... *Backs away, slowly*
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
It retails for around $120-$140, and is available in a single pose.
This is the Bandai MG Jesta kit for Gundam, which is also almost the same height as the Imperial Knight, so it works well as a proxy:
Spoiler:
I can get a second one off Amazon right now for around $50.00.
It comes with a beam saber, the rifle, and a shield which can be moved around to cover various facings, so it already comes equipped to cover for the weapons and gear on the Imperial Knight titan.
It is also completely poseable, even down to the fingers.
Now, while I like the aesthetic of the IK, the idea that I'd be paying over 2 times as much for a "premium" model that is monopose is laughable.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/01 03:15:09
insaniak wrote: But some of the stuff that gets approved for release (pumbagore being a prime example, or Murderfang more recently) just leaves people scratching their heads and wondering how these models can co-exist in a range that includes stuff like Nagash
WayneTheGame wrote: What exactly makes Beast 09 crap, beyond the fact you apparently don't like the aesthetic? Besides, if you're talking about comparing sculpts, you're comparing a character to a Warjack. Compare a Dreadnought to Beast 09.
Here's a better comparison:
GW:
Spoiler:
Not GW:
Spoiler:
Those two figures are pretty comparable IMO. A slightly different look as one is a sci-fi Commissar, and the other is basically a steampunk Commissar; Kommandant Irusk has slightly more small detail, but is slightly more chunky. But by all means go ahead, say how the PP figure is "crap" presumably because it's not a sci-fi Commissar with a laspistol.
To be fair, whilst pp metals are generally pretty solid, that irusk sculpt isn't the best by any means.though his upper body looks quite beefy (I remember the jokes that he'd been hitting the gym), His body is very much out of proportion, with gorilla arms that reach his knees, tiny legs that comprise about a third of his body etc. I'd much rather use sorscha or strakhov as a comparison to be fair. I was almost thinking of converting Malakov into a 'young irusk' sculpt. then again, that out of scale thing is frequently also a feature of gw's work. Heck, that commissar has a holster the size of his thigh. Forgeworld stuff Is generally quite excellent, the regular gw stuff often comes up short when compared to it, if you ask me.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/09/01 08:31:00
I have an agenda? I am quite willing to accept that the IP doesn't make the game. I hate what they did to Tyranids and Orks, that they went completely against the fluff in the game. That they absolutely hate assault and have overdeveloped shooting and the amount of AP2 to the point where it is a slugfest.
Me talking about the quality of the sculpts and the things GW does well doesn't mean I don't have a problem with GW. I just at present can't see why I'd be playing Mantic or PP. They treat their customers better, do market research and engage with communities but don't like their models at all and they don't have the decades of storytelling and fluff build up that makes me want to play, to care which side I pick. A lot of this is subjective, largely in comparing tabletop games I think the sculpt quality goes to GW. That there are individual groups out there that can sculpt as well but tabletop gaming companies where I could pick up and play an alternative system. That is GW for me.
But all of this arguement started based off people saying that GW could take a 40% haircut in what they charge. The arguments of value and aesthetics and sculpting arose from that.
Does anyone have any concrete figures to say what their margins and costs are as to whether or not we even know if they have bloated margins?
Does anyone have any concrete figures to say what their margins and costs are as to whether or not we even know if they have bloated margins?
GW's margins average about 70% on their price to retailers. If you add the cost of their own retail arm, then their margins will drop significantly though. Solution? Shut down all GW stores, they've been nothing but a millstone around the companies neck for a number of years now!
Found it! Was on the 2011-2012 half year report:
Highlights:
Gross margin at 76.8% (2010: 76.7%)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/01 10:26:46
If it is true that GW has the best quality models something else needs to be done to turn the company around, because it suffered 8% drop in sales last year despite its wonderful models.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: I just at present can't see why I'd be playing Mantic or PP. They treat their customers better, do market research and engage with communities but don't like their models at all and they don't have the decades of storytelling and fluff build up that makes me want to play, to care which side I pick. A lot of this is subjective, largely in comparing tabletop games I think the sculpt quality goes to GW.
*highlighted bit for emphasis*
le sigh. GW isnt the only game with a large catalogue of lore. If anything, I'd argue gw don't necessarily have 'decades of lore' to hand, what they have largely amounts to 'lore, written decades ago'.
Now, with respect, I will tell you about privateer press' lore. Simple fact is that Despite claiming they lack decades of lore and fluff build up, I don't think you have looked hard enough. Warmachine, for example, has a fantastic setting, and it has been developing for quite a long time now. Did you know it originally started off as a D20RPG setting using the DnD 3.5 OSL rules? this was back when the Witchfire Trilogy was their first outing. And that was well over ten years ago now - 2001 I think, and the fluff has been constantly developed and pushed forward since then. It's an evolving timeline for one - we are about four years into hostilities with the current story arc. And the plot has been advancing forward steadily since warmachine amounted to a few border skirmishes four years ago to the current total war scenario.
I’ll be honest. I’’m always that bit disappointed and annoyed when people post that other games dont have well developed backgrounds. . Such as what you have said. I understand you are probably saying it more from lack of familiarity as much as anything else, but nonetheless you are perpetuating a falsehood, and it really does grind my gears that people continue to do it. the fluff? its there. its simply not true to suggest what you are suggesting. And I can back my statements up.
the first place for fluff, as you can guess is the rulebook and army books for both warmachine and hordes. they have the ongoing fiction, as well as character back stories, unit descriptions and the FOW books often describe some of the logistics, and actual nuts and bolts of army organisation, and history. they're good solid reads (i love the retribution book in particular, itsbackground material is phenomenol!) but generally, act as a great intro. If you are interested, the fluff goes all the way back to Mk1 and the original books from over 10 years ago. if you get the PP reader app, you can download all the old books for a song. its well worth it, IMO. the hordes expansions (mutagenesis and evolution iirc) have some really excellent story material.
the second place is PPs magazine. No Quarter. it is an excellent read. pick it up at your FLGS, and if you want the older copies, check out the PP reader app, where you can get all the old issues for a few pence. there are short stories throughout the magazine. they also run very popular and very well written fluff articles in the magazine. For example, you have the Gavyn Kyle files, which elaborates on, explores and deepends the fiction behind a lot of the "names" in the game. Not just casters. But other famous individuals too. Sometimes its units (there was one exploring the history and culture of the kayazy). Another great one is the Guts n Gears files, which are like the GK files, but are less about individuals, and more about the fluff behind unit types and warjack chassis (where they were made, how long they were in service for, development history etc). the NQ magazine is well worth a read - it has some excellent content and is well worth its price tag. i think they're re-releasing some of the fiction via skull island as well (see below). there is also regular fiction which includes both once off short stories, and stories that continue on the arc from those in books - for example, what happened to Kallus at the end of Domination is explained in one.
the third place (and my personal favourite) is the RPG material. Warmachine originated as a D20RPG using the DnD open source licence. their very first adventure was called "the witchfire trilogy" and is a great read, with some interesting little nuggets. the "old" D20 material comprised the character guides (which ahave a lot of the basic information, cosmology, history etc) 2 monsternomicons (with huge bits of info on infernals, and skorne culture/history, although its generally about the monsters that inhabit immoren), a small exansion on the port of Five FIngers, and the excellent world guide. I cannot recommend these enough; the World GUide in particular. its epic. you can literally smell the smoke when you read it. they're very, very engrossing, and do a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - not just the history, but crime&punishment, trades and learning, entertainment, finance, language, cosmology, and lots of information on locations, towns, cities, forts, and the big names in all of them. Now, the old material is still online (if you know where to look; winkwinknudgenudge) but they're also all being updated by PP into a new RPG series using a proprietary rules system based off of the wargame. So far they have the IKRPG core rules, five fingers and the excellent Kings Nations and Gods books. again, all well worth the read. upcoming is a new monsternomicon and the iron kingdoms: unleashed "complimentary" RPG which focuses on adventures in the wilds, and expands on the races to include tharn, farrow etc. Im quite looking forward to that one! i think thw RPG material on its own is stellar, and really does a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - far more than youd expect from a regular wargame.
the fourth place is PPs publishing wing. skull island expeditions.https://skullislandx.com/
they dont yet have the volume or the library of titles of the black library, but whats there is very solid. i will particularly recommend the warcaster chronicle series (caine, butcher and shae so far), warlock chronicles (makeda and thagrosh), extraordinary zoology (brilliant little read!) and top of the pile is Into the Storm by larry correia (award winning author). the iron kingdoms excursions series is a series of short stories that are quite fun to read too.
greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy
"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are"
Azreal13 wrote: Hey, you may think twiggery is cheap when it's done casually, but once you get into competitive twigging (and, God help you, Pooh Sticks) then it's just a money pit...
I... thought those were Pocky.... *Backs away, slowly*
Jaq Draco lives wrote: I just at present can't see why I'd be playing Mantic or PP. They treat their customers better, do market research and engage with communities but don't like their models at all and they don't have the decades of storytelling and fluff build up that makes me want to play, to care which side I pick. A lot of this is subjective, largely in comparing tabletop games I think the sculpt quality goes to GW.
*highlighted bit for emphasis*
le sigh. GW isnt the only game with a large catalogue of lore. If anything, I'd argue gw don't necessarily have 'decades of lore' to hand, what they have largely amounts to 'lore, written decades ago'.
Now, with respect, I will tell you about privateer press' lore. Simple fact is that Despite claiming they lack decades of lore and fluff build up, I don't think you have looked hard enough. Warmachine, for example, has a fantastic setting, and it has been developing for quite a long time now. Did you know it originally started off as a D20RPG setting using the DnD 3.5 OSL rules? this was back when the Witchfire Trilogy was their first outing. And that was well over ten years ago now - 2001 I think, and the fluff has been constantly developed and pushed forward since then. It's an evolving timeline for one - we are about four years into hostilities with the current story arc. And the plot has been advancing forward steadily since warmachine amounted to a few border skirmishes four years ago to the current total war scenario.
I’ll be honest. I’’m always that bit disappointed and annoyed when people post that other games dont have well developed backgrounds. . Such as what you have said. I understand you are probably saying it more from lack of familiarity as much as anything else, but nonetheless you are perpetuating a falsehood, and it really does grind my gears that people continue to do it. the fluff? its there. its simply not true to suggest what you are suggesting. And I can back my statements up.
the first place for fluff, as you can guess is the rulebook and army books for both warmachine and hordes. they have the ongoing fiction, as well as character back stories, unit descriptions and the FOW books often describe some of the logistics, and actual nuts and bolts of army organisation, and history. they're good solid reads (i love the retribution book in particular, itsbackground material is phenomenol!) but generally, act as a great intro. If you are interested, the fluff goes all the way back to Mk1 and the original books from over 10 years ago. if you get the PP reader app, you can download all the old books for a song. its well worth it, IMO. the hordes expansions (mutagenesis and evolution iirc) have some really excellent story material.
the second place is PPs magazine. No Quarter. it is an excellent read. pick it up at your FLGS, and if you want the older copies, check out the PP reader app, where you can get all the old issues for a few pence. there are short stories throughout the magazine. they also run very popular and very well written fluff articles in the magazine. For example, you have the Gavyn Kyle files, which elaborates on, explores and deepends the fiction behind a lot of the "names" in the game. Not just casters. But other famous individuals too. Sometimes its units (there was one exploring the history and culture of the kayazy). Another great one is the Guts n Gears files, which are like the GK files, but are less about individuals, and more about the fluff behind unit types and warjack chassis (where they were made, how long they were in service for, development history etc). the NQ magazine is well worth a read - it has some excellent content and is well worth its price tag. i think they're re-releasing some of the fiction via skull island as well (see below). there is also regular fiction which includes both once off short stories, and stories that continue on the arc from those in books - for example, what happened to Kallus at the end of Domination is explained in one.
the third place (and my personal favourite) is the RPG material. Warmachine originated as a D20RPG using the DnD open source licence. their very first adventure was called "the witchfire trilogy" and is a great read, with some interesting little nuggets. the "old" D20 material comprised the character guides (which ahave a lot of the basic information, cosmology, history etc) 2 monsternomicons (with huge bits of info on infernals, and skorne culture/history, although its generally about the monsters that inhabit immoren), a small exansion on the port of Five FIngers, and the excellent world guide. I cannot recommend these enough; the World GUide in particular. its epic. you can literally smell the smoke when you read it. they're very, very engrossing, and do a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - not just the history, but crime&punishment, trades and learning, entertainment, finance, language, cosmology, and lots of information on locations, towns, cities, forts, and the big names in all of them. Now, the old material is still online (if you know where to look; winkwinknudgenudge) but they're also all being updated by PP into a new RPG series using a proprietary rules system based off of the wargame. So far they have the IKRPG core rules, five fingers and the excellent Kings Nations and Gods books. again, all well worth the read. upcoming is a new monsternomicon and the iron kingdoms: unleashed "complimentary" RPG which focuses on adventures in the wilds, and expands on the races to include tharn, farrow etc. Im quite looking forward to that one! i think thw RPG material on its own is stellar, and really does a fantastic job of bringing the world to life - far more than youd expect from a regular wargame.
the fourth place is PPs publishing wing. skull island expeditions.https://skullislandx.com/ they dont yet have the volume or the library of titles of the black library, but whats there is very solid. i will particularly recommend the warcaster chronicle series (caine, butcher and shae so far), warlock chronicles (makeda and thagrosh), extraordinary zoology (brilliant little read!) and top of the pile is Into the Storm by larry correia (award winning author). the iron kingdoms excursions series is a series of short stories that are quite fun to read too.
This. Exalted as much as I can exalt it. PP has great stories and characters that are more complex than they might appear at first glance. The way the histories intertwine is fascinating. For example, in one book I read how after a major battle, a bunch of Cryx, a bunch of undead pirates and raiders) came by and stole bodies. I was "What the heck?" But then in the Cryx book it explained how they've secretly been building a vast armada and have an empire to rival any other. Any day they will start their invasion of the mainland. Mind was blown. A huge threat and no one's prepared for it. The Convergence of Cyriss fluff is some of my favorite and have a clockwork/Lovecraftian thing going on with a secret goddess whispering into people's dreams telling them to prepare the world for her coming. Unlike Space Marine fluff where every character is just different shades of the same color. (Honor, brotherhood, glory...really, they're all the same.) There are scoundrels fighting for their own causes, people who serve their country but have different dreams and hopes, mercenaries out for revenge or redemption. It's far more varied with no cookie cutter characters.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/09/01 13:56:21
Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions.
And there is no reason that you cannot use the fluff from WHFB in Kings of War.
The lore is not tied to the system - heck, GW has changed the system on a regular basis! (And the fluff, too... I hate their three ring binder approach to setting history.)
So, if you want your Knights of the White Wolf then field them. Or buy a mess of Perry War of the Roses minis and call them Knights - Kings of War is about the system, not the setting.
And that is one of the armies with the most distinct (in a 17th C. way) of the WHFB armies. (Pretty sure that early GW mostly just wanted to use their historical figures in a fantasy setting - so you have 13th - 15th C. French and 17th C. Holy Roman Empire. They just took cultural archetypes from our history, and added a fantasy gloss... so, Aztec frog people lived in South America.)
I actually liked the fluff better in the Warhammer 3e days - the setting had more dirt under its fingernails, back then.
For other armies.... The design aesthetic has changed as well. Ghouls have gone through how many changes? (And the current ones... look like crap.)
Do you really think that changing the fluff makes people look at an armored skeleton and go 'What the heck is that?'
Or do they look at it and say 'Armored skeleton'. (Or, more likely, 'Die you undead scum!' A lone skeleton, armored or not, won't last long....)
If you like the fluff, then use the fluff - but that is not a reason to limit your selections.
The Auld Grump
Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.
The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
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