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the Templars thing is stupid, but the nazi stuff is just bizarre. Like, why convert 40k units into nazis exactly? If you're doing flames of war that's fine, but the whole nazi fetish in 40k is disturbing.

Especially since Dkok are analogous to WW1 Germans. Your friend glorifying the SS in a fictional sci-fi setting has problems

And time to debunk some claims in this thread

1.) "Its freedom of speech". Nobody is claiming you can't do it, just that it's stupid

2.) "its a grim setting and the imperium is brutal like nazis". 40k is over-the-top science fantasy with lots of ridiculous stuff like chainswords and pros. Bringing teal tragedies like the SS into it is stupid and needless

3.) "the crusade stuff with Templars is just as offensive" no, it isn't. The crusades were a thousand years ago. Time does matter, and there are still survivors of SS atrocities around today.

 Harriticus wrote:
the Templars thing is stupid, but the nazi stuff is just bizarre. Like, why convert 40k units into nazis exactly? If you're doing flames of war that's fine, but the whole nazi fetish in 40k is disturbing.

Especially since Dkok are analogous to WW1 Germans. Your friend glorifying the SS in a fictional sci-fi setting has problems

And time to debunk some claims in this thread

1.) "Its freedom of speech". Nobody is claiming you can't do it, just that it's stupid

2.) "its a grim setting and the imperium is brutal like nazis". 40k is over-the-top science fantasy with lots of ridiculous stuff like chainswords and pros. Bringing teal tragedies like the SS into it is stupid and needless

3.) "the crusade stuff with Templars is just as offensive" no, it isn't. The crusades were a thousand years ago. Time does matter, and there are still survivors of SS atrocities around today.

This is pretty much how I feel. I'd say the jihad stuff is unnecessary as well on account of the fact that jihadists have been in the news in the last few years and so the model sounds to me like someone forcing a political comment into the game. Play the game and you can always talk about these things after. I'd feel the same whether someone's models were making a point I agree with or not.

Nobody should go thinking I'm against freedom of speech. But that also means you're not entitled to a guarantee that everyone will agree with you. If you want to make a controversial statement, you also need to accept that you may get into arguments. If the owner of the SS army was doing it because he likes Iron Sky, he needs to acknowledge that not everyone will see it that way.

That's actually a question:

Has anyone seen anyone get offended/angry/annoyed at Axis armies in historical games?

Depends on the unit I suppose. I did see a discussion at a Warlord group on Facebook where a guy wanted to do something "different" and was looking into fielding a Dirlewanger Brigade based around the destruction of Warsaw. Everybody was telling him to just not do it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's actually a question:

Has anyone seen anyone get offended/angry/annoyed at Axis armies in historical games?

Not Axis, but I read a thread (I think on Warseer) where the thread starter was wondering why anyone would field Confederate armies in ACW, and his attitude made it very clear that there could be no possible justification to do so. I remember cringing at the word "justify". He was from the UK, as well.

As atrocious as racism and slavery is, some people should just get over themselves.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's actually a question:

Has anyone seen anyone get offended/angry/annoyed at Axis armies in historical games?

Well a lot of closet Nazi fetishists play those games, but it's stupid to make a big fuss about it because it's history. Bringing it into 40k is another matter entirely.

You mean he thought the American Civil War was actually about slavery?

Never understood the attitude that playing an army in a historical game means sympathising with the politics of that nation. It's strange how many people seem to take playing Germans in FOW or Bolt Action as some sort of endorsement of national socialism.

Mind you I've come across people who get offended at the entire concept of wargaming regardless of the armies involved.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's actually a question:

Has anyone seen anyone get offended/angry/annoyed at Axis armies in historical games?

I did. Guy got thrown out of a store here, because his machine gun ammo guys were made to look as if they were were death camp overalls.

Well a lot of closet Nazi fetishists play those games, but it's stupid to make a big fuss about it because it's history.

When your country loses almost the whole of its population to someone we can talk about.

I dont have a problem with the Jihad/Crusade thing. Especially when you consider that they are both really the same thing; an excuse used by religious extremists to wage war. Not a single person has had a problem with BT crusading around the galaxy for thousands of years, why should we now be upset when we compare those Crusades to a Jihad?

The Nazi thing is a bit more touchy but I still think I would be okay with it; just as long as the person fielding the army was not openly endorsing white supremecy or anti-semitism. I understand how people might be offended by the symbolism, but if you look at the 40k fluff, religious and racial persecution is already rampant. I would argue that someone who is offended by just the symbolism alone, is probably playing the wrong game.

 winterwind85 wrote:
i had the possibility to talk to the guy with the dkok army today.
he told me that his army was inspired by the movie iron sky where the nazis fled to the moon when loosing war and praising charly chaplin as the great dictator. he found it kind of .. humouros i think is the right word in english?
he also showed me what was the.. motiv? for his painting scheme. and his company commander is the dkok officer with the charly chaplin head from another miniature, very funny, didnt see that in the first moment.
i post the pic, if its not ok in any way maybe a mod can delete it, dont know if the symbols are forbidden in uk or us.

Spoiler:

Everyone is ignoring the OP's update they were based on a WW2 parody which look very like Killzone space nazi's or the recent Wulfenstein game.

I used to play a friend who has something with the WW2 German army, he is a big fan of the German technology in WW2 for a short time the German army was superior to anything else out there, sometimes with technology, other times through tactics and adaptability. I always played the Russians (Because i don't like tommy cooker . So his army was always period correct, so yes he had ss tank squads because they were the elite with all the latest stuff.

So i never had a problem, playing against him. But i know him he is a military nut , there are people think that if you play a certain army that you share their ideology.

I think anyone who would waste even a second of their life worrying about this has more problems than I. Its a model. It may not be in great taste but people worry too much about every little political correctness. I have better things to worry about. I don't personally feel offended by it so I say go for it.

I've been beaten enough for being trans to know that when people who commit microaggressions are unchallenged, people who feel like committing hate crimes feel more confident about committing them. If someone in a games club I'm part of skilfully converted an Ordo Malleus Inquisitor executing an ambiguously-gendered Slaaneshi warrior with an accompanying slogan that is extremely closely associated with violently transphobic street movements, I'd hit the drokking roof.

Similarly with armies that uncritically imitate real-life hate movements. There's a world of difference between an historic Axis army, a Blood Axe army that satirises and ridicules fascism, and apparent attempts to mimic the appearance of murdering white supremacists.

Free speech means the state not gagging you. It does not mean private gaming clubs, shop and tournaments permitting players to use their tables as temporary display boards for far-right propaganda, no matter how finely crafted.

 Fezman wrote:

.... the model sounds to me like someone forcing a political comment into the game. Play the game and you can always talk about these things after. I'd feel the same whether someone's models were making a point I agree with or not.

Agreed. Game-playing and the enjoyment of fiction are both forms of escapism. Introducing references to current affairs shatters that escapism. I'd rather keep my engagement with current affairs separate from my gaming.

The Jhidhadist thing actually seems kind of funny to me, idk why, but it elicited a chuckle from me. As for the Nazi thing, I don't think that the guy was trying to make a statement, trying to express his political opinions, or even trying to be funny. If you look at Nazi Germany and then look at the Imperium of Man, there are many parallels.
1.) brutal and oppressive regim
2.) utter racism and belief in racial superiority (IoM believes whole of humanity is greater, but they have to deal with aliens, so obviously they have to broaden the view a little bit)
3.) dissenters must die
4.) Imperialist beliefs - expansion at any cost
5.) lower races must be exterminated
6.) a semi-fascist government (Hitler - the Emperor)
7.) Dogmatic beliefs
8.) Military-oriented society
9.) Incredibly powerful military
10.) Political corruption
11.) the list goes on
The parallels between Nazi Germany and the IoM are innumerable, so I guess that I can kind of get why the guy put the SS symbols on his DKOK. They may have been offensive, but he may have just been expressing his hate for the IoM, or expressing the parallel he noticed between the two regimes.

Well, I guess the guy isn't a Nazi, just he may like the overall Wehrmacht theme as an army, not as political or social phenomenon.
Look, I have an example. A friend of mine is keen on collecting German WW2 panzers (you know, models like Revell, Tamiya etc.). I can say he doesn't support Nazis at all, just he like the military image of the army. So there is nothing bad about your opponent unless he really behaves in an inappropriate way.

 Flippa wrote:
Hans.... Are we the baddies?

what is this from?
I have no problem with ss/jihad miniatures as long as its a joke.At my local club everyone calls lotr haradrim the taliban/isis and the captain is called osama bin laden.And NOBODY CARES.the SS thing?admit it:nazis look cool.Im sorry but its the truth.Evil?Very.Cool looking?very.If hes a neo-nazi then get offended.if not then ignore it.

I don't claim to have the right answer to this question, and I don't think anyone ever will because "offensive" and "politically correct" are quite subjective and open to personal opinion.

Let me start with the Jihad referencing model. I personally do not find this offensive. I may be mistaken on this but Jihad has two (and probably more) meanings. One is a, if I'm not mistaken, inner spiritual struggle against sin. The other, and more prevalent and widely known definition is the "holy war against non-believers". this latter definition of course being synonymous with the act of suicide bombings and reckless attacks against ones enemies without thought for survival. I can understand the joke the Templars player was making, and I find it somewhat amusing, after all the Black Templars were themed quite unapologetically after the knights Hospitallers that would accompany many crusades. The themes of the crusade is very prevalent in WH40k and they were "crusades in the name of holy Terra", so in short, a religious crusade in nature aswell. I would say loosely the theme of the joke isn't that far removed from the WH40k universe at all, with exception to the jihad reference that is, using the tallarn model makes sense as well since it does already somewhat resemble the "jihadist" the modeller would be attempting to portray.

At the end of the day the main reason I don't find this offensive is that the joke makes light of two themes that I have little respect for myself. Assuming the modeller was making a joke of the second definition of Jihad (which I can fairly safely assume he was) which is violent and hateful in it's nature against non-believers of the muslim way. And he is also making light of the crusades which, let's be honest, were in of themselves a war against non believers (not to mention later crusades were made more for personal, political and economic reasons as opposed to religious beliefs). Given this joke is about two themes that I believe, based on their radical, hateful and violent nature, are not worth my respect I don't think this crosses into being a politically incorrect model that people should be up in arms about. I am not many people however and I'm sure this would be seen as offensive still to some and I can respect their decision to be offended by it even if I am not, that is their choice, not mine.

Having said all this while I don't find the model offensive I feel it should be more a showpiece than a playing piece as the blatant reference to Jihad, a word that does not appear in 40k lore to my knowledge unlike the word crusade, so it does break my immersion of the 40k universe to play against this model. A minor gripe on my part I assure you and I would still play against this model as it still does not detract from my fun of the game.

As for the second army, the DKoK force, I feel I would need to see the models in question. If they are simply painted in the black and red colour scheme akin to the Nazi forces I don't think it'd be too bad. After all there are many armies in 40k that are already black and red and if we start comparing colour choices to real world things too many armies would be associated with sports teams or something similar. Black and red, in my opinion look good together, I feel they compliment each other, that is my opinion to be sure but I feel I should be able to paint a black and red army without being labeled a Nazi sympathizer (within reason of course, if I paint them all black with a red armband that will be crossing a line from colour choice to deliberate referencing. As for the skull, I'd also like to see that, 40k has skulls EVERYWHERE so one more skull representation doesn't break it for me. Now if he does indeed have the SS logo on the models that, in my opinion, crosses the line from theme or loose reference which 40k is full of, after all DKoK are a reference to another ere's soldiers in and of themselves, and goes into flat out representation. At this point he is making us assume the Nazi regime survived WW2 or made a resurgence in the 41st millennium, a crossover that I personally don't find necessary for the game.

To answer the OP's question, yes I would still play against these people, no I would do not find either of their armies offensive. I feel I would probably explain my opinion of what they chose to represent in their armies, calmly and with reasoning, but I would also remind them that it is their army and that I can not change how they paint or play it no more than they may change how I paint or play mine. it is my opinion that I give freely without judgement or expectations, just on the off chance they see value in it and decide to make changes so that others may not take offence to what they have chosen to represent in their army. I do feel many people in this world are far too easily offended by, well, really anything and it seems many people actively look for something even mildly politically incorrect so they can throw themselves into a hysterical rage against it. Considering that however if that is the way those people want to live I will defend their right to have that attitude or opinion on these subjects, whether I think it is justified or not.

To add my own situation of a model I felt was inappropriate I came across a daemons army. It was a soul grinder model with the top half replaced by a reclining pregnant woman's torso and her legs posed to be the front "claws" of the soul grinder chassis. She was posed in the "birthing" position and in the groin region she was giving birth to a battle cannon (so in hindsight was it perhaps a defiler then?). Now personally I think child birth is scary, disgusting and never something I want to see in real life, none the less represented on my tabletop. Please keep in mind that my above statement is merely my opinion, I in no way wish to propagate my thoughts on this subject to people, I merely explain it as it is relevant to the point I wish to make here. Normally I would not let people know my opinion on child birth. I know however to many people child birth is the most beautiful and miraculous thing in the world, I respect their opinion of it even If I do not mirror their opinion. I would still play against this person, enjoy the game and be friendly, as at the end of the day the model is not hurting me (just my plastic dudesmen), emotionally scarring me or causing me undue stress. In fact I must also give compliments to this person who modelled the soul grinder/defiler because it was expertly crafted and well put together, I would still rate it high in paint-job and craftsmanship even if it disturbs me to look at it.

I apologize for the super long post but I feel this is a subject that I must spend my time to explain clearly lest there be confusion, misunderstanding or rage as a result of it. Please remember this is all my opinion and in no way hard fact. Thank you for reading.

 Da krimson barun wrote:

 Flippa wrote:
Hans.... Are we the baddies?

what is this from?

There's a clue in the video title and at the beginning of the video...

Numberwang of course!

 quickfuze wrote:
we Americans also wiped two entire cities in Japan basically off the map, but I bet if you saw an Ork bommer with Fat man and Little Boy painted on the two of the bombs you would not even associate it or find it offensive.

Fair point, and something so many people condemning terrorism overlook -the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was probably the most destructive deliberate targeting of a civilian centre in recent history, yet it got brushed under the carpet...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
If it was done for humour's sake, I'd shake my head at such bad taste, but might even laugh. The SS uniform was pretty cool, so if someone has the ball to model an army based around it, fine, if that's all there is to it. I'd only take offense if the player was actually bigoted or intended it seriously.

The Helghast in Killzone are pretty much Nazis

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
we Americans also wiped two entire cities in Japan basically off the map, but I bet if you saw an Ork bommer with Fat man and Little Boy painted on the two of the bombs you would not even associate it or find it offensive.

Fair point, and something so many people condemning terrorism overlook -the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was probably the most destructive deliberate targeting of a civilian centre in recent history, yet it got brushed under the carpet...

It may have been horrific, but it was the right choice for the time. The Japanese high command was willing to sacrifice every Japanese citizen in a futile and bloody defense. Had we needed to invade Japan with conventional forces, the casualties (both US and Japanese, and both military and civilian) would have been at least a couple orders of magnitude greater. Look at the invasion of Okinawa; that will give a glimpse of would have been. Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki convinced Emperor Hirohito, at least, to surrender and spare his people.

BairdEC wrote:


It may have been horrific, but it was the right choice for the time. The Japanese high command was willing to sacrifice every Japanese citizen in a futile and bloody defense. Had we needed to invade Japan with conventional forces, the casualties (both US and Japanese, and both military and civilian) would have been at least a couple orders of magnitude greater. Look at the invasion of Okinawa; that will give a glimpse of would have been. Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki convinced Emperor Hirohito, at least, to surrender and spare his people.

From a strategic point of view it was the best choice. From a humanitarian point of view it was a horrendously evil act and nothing short of mass murder. As horrified as I was by terrorist attacks this century, the horror I feel about this is greater, because the death toll was much greater. A lot of people write off the dropping of those bombs becasue it happened during war, but mass murder of civilians is mass murder, regardless of whether the weapon is a hijacked plane or a very destructive bomb. imho.

On a sidenote, I always wondered why they didn't drop a nuke outside of a city, as a warning shot, where the effect would have been visible but no civilian casualties, it still would have scared the Japanese into surrender, knowing that the US could drop it on their cities at any time. I thought long and hard about that, and the truth is (probably) that the military command and perhaps even some of the scientists who'd worked on the bomb wanted to see its effect on a city.

There may have been some curiosity, but I think it was mostly what would make a good demonstration. Both areas were valid military targets since they were shipping centers; I doubt that the Japanese had a large enough military presence at any one place to make a good target that would not have targeted civilians anyways. Bombing civilian areas was nothing new by that point; the only reason anyone remembers those two in particular is the weapon used. One should also remember that accuracy back then meant hitting the right city block and was very difficult. Carpet bombing started as a method to ensure the target was hit, but it also caused a lot of collateral damage that, short of not bombing, was unavoidable at the time. The end effect was not much different than the fireboming which had been done with incendiaries in Tokyo, Dresden, and other cities. I think an argument could be made that bombing with incendiaries was more horrific since that occurred over an entire night, while the atomic blasts were mostly over in an instant. The suffering following each, of course, lasted much longer.

As has been said by wise men, war is Hell, and it is good that it is so terrible lest we become too fond of it. Unfortunately, it is also sometimes necessary.

I did want to make my Chaos Space Marine Zombie army into Nazi Zombies but ended up running out of guard so had to use other models of other armies so it didn't work out. I ended up painting over the swastikas with the pepsi symbol.
So they are now perfectly fine, unless you like coca cola...

BairdEC wrote:

 thegreatchimp wrote:

 quickfuze wrote:
we Americans also wiped two entire cities in Japan basically off the map, but I bet if you saw an Ork bommer with Fat man and Little Boy painted on the two of the bombs you would not even associate it or find it offensive.

Fair point, and something so many people condemning terrorism overlook -the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was probably the most destructive deliberate targeting of a civilian centre in recent history, yet it got brushed under the carpet...

It may have been horrific, but it was the right choice for the time. The Japanese high command was willing to sacrifice every Japanese citizen in a futile and bloody defense. Had we needed to invade Japan with conventional forces, the casualties (both US and Japanese, and both military and civilian) would have been at least a couple orders of magnitude greater. Look at the invasion of Okinawa; that will give a glimpse of would have been. Dropping the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki convinced Emperor Hirohito, at least, to surrender and spare his people.

It's so ironic that pearl harbor, an arguably more viable target, that was hit in a less overkill blanket manner is still regarded as brutal, underhanded and cowardly yet people like you can still justify Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Sometimes it's bigger to just admit your wrong and learn from it. (by you I mean society, not you BairdEC, I know you had nothing to do with those bombings.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also to make another point relevant to the thread. How many people do you think would be offended if I Painted an IG regiment in blue and gold and called them the 15th cavalry?

Or what if I played an all Black regiment who wore green and red like the RPA?

We play a war game..... WAR game.... I still don't see how people can act offended by model representations when the entire hobby represents the worst aspect of humanity.

i

BairdEC wrote:

I'm largely in agreement with you. I was going to mention Dresden, it was probably just as bad, but as you said, over an extended period of time. Though I think we have to be clear as to what can be classed as "collateral damage." Bombing a factory, knowing there's a likelihood of hitting surrounding houses, as coldly calculating and callous as that is, would be classed as collateral damage. But I don't believe fire-bombing a city or hitting it with a nuke is, becasue it is deliberately targeting said civilians. Which is why I don't differentiate between the WW2 bombings we're discussing and terrorism.

"Yeah man, it's just a joke that I don't even care about. Just a meaningless joke that I spent hundreds of dollars on building and countless hours painting minuscule S's and totenkampfs on. It definitely doesn't say anything about the way I prioritize my time." Regardless of their claimed intent, the amount of time and effort put into it weirds me out man.

This really has nothing to do with being "politically correct" and a lot to do with not going out of your way to offend people. It's not like racism or anti-semitism are obscure triggers.

On the note of the "sexy" land raider (sexy in quotes because it looks more like sex trafficking if you've actually seen the model), that was in incredibly poor taste.

Yes 40k is a grim dark setting of violence and war but it's also fantasy. No one in real life has had a loved one killed by psychic plague demons from another dimension. Odds are someone at your hobby shop has experienced enough racial hatred or sexual abuse (or knows someone who has) that it doesn't need to be present in their escapist scifi toys. Joke or not.

 bubz wrote:
Yes 40k is a grim dark setting of violence and war but it's also fantasy. No one in real life has had a loved one killed by psychic plague demons from another dimension.

Hey man, check your privilege! That's how my uncle died! (At least that's what my Aunt claimed at the trial.)

 Boggy Man wrote:

 bubz wrote:
Yes 40k is a grim dark setting of violence and war but it's also fantasy. No one in real life has had a loved one killed by psychic plague demons from another dimension.

Hey man, check your privilege! That's how my uncle died! (At least that's what my Aunt claimed at the trial.)

hahaha redacted!

But seriously "just don't be offended" is about the most privileged thing you could say regarding Nazi and sex slave conversions.

I don't think it's that hard to just not spend hours making something that will 100% offend people (for good reason). But whatever, it can't realistically be banned so I'd just choose not to play them.

 bubz wrote:

 Boggy Man wrote:

 bubz wrote:
Yes 40k is a grim dark setting of violence and war but it's also fantasy. No one in real life has had a loved one killed by psychic plague demons from another dimension.

Hey man, check your privilege! That's how my uncle died! (At least that's what my Aunt claimed at the trial.)

hahaha redacted!

But seriously "just don't be offended" is about the most privileged thing you could say regarding Nazi and sex slave conversions.

I don't think it's that hard to just not spend hours making something that will 100% offend people (for good reason). But whatever, it can't realistically be banned so I'd just choose not to play them.

But lik has been said, what about people who do historic Wargaming? Because they pick the Nazis, and spend the same amount of time modelling and painting their army does that still weird you out? I'm not having a go or anything I'm just curious where the line is between being interested with the history of war and being a closet nazi is

We play a war game..... WAR game.... I still don't see how people can act offended by model representations when the entire hobby represents the worst aspect of humanity.

How many people in your family were killed by the SS. Because in my it was.

From my fathers side:
His grand father paternal side and his father in camps , two of his uncles and their wifes and their children all under the age of 16 years old in campes too.
From his maternal side.
His grandfather his grand mother ,his mother , three uncles out of which two had wifes and children all in camps. One aunt survived, but not from the lack of trying from the SS. she was raped and shot through the neck, but the bullet somehow avoided anything important and after a few hours she manged to dig herself out of a pile of few thousand shot people.

From my mothers side.
Her grand father paternal side died in 1939, although not by the SS, by normal wehrmacht . Her grand mother died durning the bombing of Warsaw in 1939 , so technicly not the SS. Her father was shot for smuggling food, Both her uncles died durning the uprising, one had a normal combat death, the other was burned alived in a hospital. Her sister and mother ended in a work camp in germany. Her sister was raped, but not by the germans, on their way back.

Her maternal grandfather died in 1941 shot for owning a radio,

And that is just the closest family. You should also add to it burned houses, lost shops, super hard life without most of your family to support you under the communist rule thanks to germany starting a war. The idea that anything linked to nazi germany or SS deeply offending. As most normal people would.