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Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





Sorry, you are right i kinda rushed the statement a bit. Just trying to get the thread back on track with something I've thought for a while.


I'm not complaining about my army, but as a DE player, I think our firepower is severely overrated especially when I see people describing DE as "the army that can table you by turn 2, but otherwise fall to bits" well then I guess we fall to bits every game if this was true. I have played DE competitively for a significant period of time, and although I play them a lot less than my Nids, I do have a positive win ratio with them, but have never once had a turn 2 victory to my knowledge, and I think turn 3 victories were few and far inbetween and mostly against highly ineffecient list. The firepower is NOT that badass at all, although you can get forward and apply it fast, I feel like people really misunderstand DE at a surface level and that we are much more about making smart decisions and drawing a game out while kiting and knowing how hard to push and where. I think they are definitely the strategists army, and I am not complaining about power level or anything, I just think that the army as a whole is largely misunderstood (I've seen some who get it tho).

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






I REALLY don't understand the "win turn 2 or die" mentality with DE
It might have been true last codex, but this codex your units are literally better as the game progresses.

If anything, with DE I'd think of a strategy revolving avoiding the enemy early on, and take him on the latter turns when the PFP is all charged up and units start becoming very cost-efficient.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 BoomWolf wrote:
I REALLY don't understand the "win turn 2 or die" mentality with DE

It might have been true last codex, but this codex your units are literally better as the game progresses.

If anything, with DE I'd think of a strategy revolving avoiding the enemy early on, and take him on the latter turns when the PFP is all charged up and units start becoming very cost-efficient.


Honestly, even with the old book, win on turn 2 seems a bit... optimistic.

I mean, my general impression was that I never had the firepower to do that kind of damage. I think my goal would more be 'take out a few key threats by turn 2'.


With regard to the new book, I agree that it's probably better to avoid the enemy initially (if possible), though I'm not sure that was the best representation of DE. I more imagine them as blitzing out of the webway - not emerging and then hiding behind some ruins until they've each drunk 3 bottles of liquid-pain.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





vipoid nailed exactly what i was already typing. We had the range and speed and firepower to deal with elite units, its basically designed to take out key threats early on and never overcommitting.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saratoga Springs, NY

Keep in mind this is only my own opinions based off my personal experience as someone who has played Tau for a very long time in a very strange meta.

1. Railgun Hammerheads (hammerheads in general): Underrated. I don't know why people complain about Tau having trouble with AV 14 or saying "your only option is deep striking fusion blaster suits", then bash the railgun hammerhead. Especially with Longstrike that thing is a death machine to pretty much anything with an AV that isn't a superheavy. Sure, it costs more than a suicide fusion blaster suit, but it might actually live to kill multiple vehicles. Plus it has the submunitions on the railgun to help clear infantry so it's not totally useless against a horde, unlike fusion suits. (for the record I use both longstrike and fusion suits in most of my lists).

2. Riptide: Overrated. I'm guessing this one is going to get a few raised eyebrows, but especially since 7th edition it is just not that great as anything other than a brick unless you put crazy amounts of support in your list specifically to feed the riptide. I'll write out my argument in full for this because it's pretty controversial I admit.

Let's look at the Ion Accelerator. That's why you're playing the riptide (if you're using the heavy burst cannon might I kindly recommend either a squad of fire warriors and an Ethereal or a squad of broadsides). It is a pretty awesome weapon, but it is a gets hot blast template on a BS 3 model. Someone did the math and on average a blast from a BS 3 model will scatter 2.7 inches (when you translate this to real dice results, you will get 3 or more inches of scatter over half the time). A large blast template is 5" across. That means over half the time you won't be hitting whatever you put the template on top of. Over half the time... Counting in gets hot you've got a weapon that actually does what you want it to do (hit a bunched up squad of 2+ armor save dudes) less than 40% of the time. I don't like paying 225 points for less than a coin flip chance of doing what I want.

Markerlights. Yes, they do help out the riptide. Yes, a BS 6 riptide with ignores cover is amazing. However, that requires 5 markerlight tokens (3 if you can live without ignores cover, but I have found that the shot is almost wasted if you let the opponent get a cover save. It's the biggest gun you have.) That is 10 pathfinders or 15 marker drones, or 6 marker drones and a commander (and if you are using that last option may I ask why you are devoting an HQ slot and 100 points to this particular task). So basically, you are using your entire army's allotment of markerlights to feed one riptide when you could instead be feeding, say, three squads of fire warriors with an ethereal, or two broadside squads, or a whole fleet of dual plasma crisis suits.

The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there. However, it is not super scoring, and it has no close combat ability, and it costs way too many points just to be a tarpit.

Moral of the story: I think Riptides are overrated in 7th. They were terrifying in 6th when support was more readily available, but I don't want to devote my entire army's compliment of support to making sure my Riptide can actually kill something this turn.

I don't actually have a 3rd.

Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!

BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

 dementedwombat wrote:

Let's look at the Ion Accelerator. That's why you're playing the riptide (if you're using the heavy burst cannon might I kindly recommend either a squad of fire warriors and an Ethereal or a squad of broadsides). It is a pretty awesome weapon, but it is a gets hot blast template on a BS 3 model. Someone did the math and on average a blast from a BS 3 model will scatter 2.7 inches (when you translate this to real dice results, you will get 3 or more inches of scatter over half the time). A large blast template is 5" across. That means over half the time you won't be hitting whatever you put the template on top of. Over half the time... Counting in gets hot you've got a weapon that actually does what you want it to do (hit a bunched up squad of 2+ armor save dudes) less than 40% of the time. I don't like paying 225 points for less than a coin flip chance of doing what I want.
Don't forget hit hits dead on 1/3rd of the time. BS3 with a 5" template means that, if you include the BS subtraction for scatter and 1/3 hit rate, you're still hitting your original target (whatever the hole was centered over will still be touching the edge of the template) about 52% of the time, it's actually slightly better than a BS3 straight-shot. If it's a big target like an MC or a tank or a unit with a large table footprint, you're probably still hitting it with the template nearly 75% of the time.

Totally agree on the Hammerheads though, paying less than 150pts for a tank with an S10 gun that can toss out S6 pieplates and with frontal AV13 and can jink for a 3+ cover save, with a 4 shot TL'd S5 "lol-no-LoS-no-cover" secondary armament is astoundingly solid.

IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






Railgun hammerhead is not underrated.

With how hard it is to land an explosive result, even with AP1, that one shot is just not enough to be reliable unless longstrike is involved.

even assuming markers to get BS5 and ignore cover, you are still looking at a mere 9.2% to actually kill an AV14 target with a that shot.
It cannot be relied upon.


Now, as a supplemantry AT unit that also has submunnitions to be a supplementry AI unit, the odds are good enough, as once you got more AT around, even minor hullpointing and occasional disabling matters.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Saratoga Springs, NY

 Vaktathi wrote:
Don't forget hit hits dead on 1/3rd of the time. BS3 with a 5" template means that, if you include the BS subtraction for scatter and 1/3 hit rate, you're still hitting your original target (whatever the hole was centered over will still be touching the edge of the template) about 52% of the time, it's actually slightly better than a BS3 straight-shot. If it's a big target like an MC or a tank or a unit with a large table footprint, you're probably still hitting it with the template nearly 75% of the time.

Totally agree on the Hammerheads though, paying less than 150pts for a tank with an S10 gun that can toss out S6 pieplates and with frontal AV13 and can jink for a 3+ cover save, with a 4 shot TL'd S5 "lol-no-LoS-no-cover" secondary armament is astoundingly solid.
Math counted in the chance of rolling a hit. I probably should have specified that more clearly. I verified this myself. If you don't include hits you get something closer to 4" average scatter.

Also if you are buying the riptide to take out tanks or MCs (and are using the template shot to do it) then you are probably not using the right tool in the box. That's my stance on it anyway. Tau codex is an amazing arsenal of guns for every occasion so you really should try to take things that cover the biggest possible range of threats, or else are the best at dealing with what you expect to face if you know your most likely army match-ups.

The IA is good (well, designed for. Maybe not "good") at killing exactly 1 thing: clumped up squads of 2+ armor save dudes without cover and preferably without invulnerable saves (which is, off the top of my head, Ork Meganobz and maybe Broadsides if you can get them out of cover). Anything else, there is a much more effective option to kill it that probably costs less points than the Riptide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 BoomWolf wrote:
Railgun hammerhead is not underrated.

With how hard it is to land an explosive result, even with AP1, that one shot is just not enough to be reliable unless longstrike is involved.

even assuming markers to get BS5 and ignore cover, you are still looking at a mere 9.2% to actually kill an AV14 target with a that shot.
It cannot be relied upon.


Now, as a supplemantry AT unit that also has submunnitions to be a supplementry AI unit, the odds are good enough, as once you got more AT around, even minor hullpointing and occasional disabling matters.


With Longstrike that goes up to 25% chance to explode AV14. Also, let's be honest here, what can you actually "rely upon" to kill AV 14 in 1 round? Even melta suits need 2-3 on target and in melta range (with all the accompanying deep strike risks.) to feel good about the odds. I use both in my lists, but I don't think of it as "primary/secondary". I think of it as a more reliable durable platform that will perform turn after turn accompanied by a more risky option that can potentially trade way above their points cost and then die the next turn. Either are ok, both together are better.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/10/31 21:07:56


Like watching other people play video games (badly) while blathering about nothing in particular? Check out my Youtube channel: joemamaUSA!

BrianDavion wrote:
Between the two of us... I think GW is assuming we the players are not complete idiots.


Rapidly on path to becoming the world's youngest bitter old man. 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut




 dementedwombat wrote:
Keep in mind this is only my own opinions based off my personal experience as someone who has played Tau for a very long time in a very strange meta.
.

A "strange" meta would only make a Riptide better. A single Ion Cannon ignoring cover is better than more Fire Warriors because of superior range, mobility, and killing power.

CaptainStabby wrote:
If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.

 jy2 wrote:
BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.

 vipoid wrote:
Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?

 MarsNZ wrote:
ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 dementedwombat wrote:

1. Railgun Hammerheads (hammerheads in general): Underrated. I don't know why people complain about Tau having trouble with AV 14 or saying "your only option is deep striking fusion blaster suits", then bash the railgun hammerhead. Especially with Longstrike that thing is a death machine to pretty much anything with an AV that isn't a superheavy. Sure, it costs more than a suicide fusion blaster suit, but it might actually live to kill multiple vehicles. Plus it has the submunitions on the railgun to help clear infantry so it's not totally useless against a horde, unlike fusion suits. (for the record I use both longstrike and fusion suits in most of my lists).


Out of interest, how do people think Hammerheads compare to Leman Russ Vanquishers with Lascannons?

Just curious.

 dementedwombat wrote:

2. Riptide: Overrated. I'm guessing this one is going to get a few raised eyebrows, but especially since 7th edition it is just not that great as anything other than a brick unless you put crazy amounts of support in your list specifically to feed the riptide. I'll write out my argument in full for this because it's pretty controversial I admit.

Let's look at the Ion Accelerator. That's why you're playing the riptide (if you're using the heavy burst cannon might I kindly recommend either a squad of fire warriors and an Ethereal or a squad of broadsides). It is a pretty awesome weapon, but it is a gets hot blast template on a BS 3 model. Someone did the math and on average a blast from a BS 3 model will scatter 2.7 inches (when you translate this to real dice results, you will get 3 or more inches of scatter over half the time). A large blast template is 5" across. That means over half the time you won't be hitting whatever you put the template on top of. Over half the time... Counting in gets hot you've got a weapon that actually does what you want it to do (hit a bunched up squad of 2+ armor save dudes) less than 40% of the time. I don't like paying 225 points for less than a coin flip chance of doing what I want.

Markerlights. Yes, they do help out the riptide. Yes, a BS 6 riptide with ignores cover is amazing. However, that requires 5 markerlight tokens (3 if you can live without ignores cover, but I have found that the shot is almost wasted if you let the opponent get a cover save. It's the biggest gun you have.) That is 10 pathfinders or 15 marker drones, or 6 marker drones and a commander (and if you are using that last option may I ask why you are devoting an HQ slot and 100 points to this particular task). So basically, you are using your entire army's allotment of markerlights to feed one riptide when you could instead be feeding, say, three squads of fire warriors with an ethereal, or two broadside squads, or a whole fleet of dual plasma crisis suits.

The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there. However, it is not super scoring, and it has no close combat ability, and it costs way too many points just to be a tarpit.


If you include the support, then it is expensive. However, what you're effectively getting is a weapon that can reliably delete virtually any infantry squad in the game from 36" away (measuring from the markerlights).

Also, even without the support, it hardly seems bad. I mean, compare a Riptide with Ion Accelerator it to the Leman Russ Executioner (which effectively has 3 plasma cannons as its main weapon). You're paying 30 more points, but you get:
- Night Vision
- Twice the range of main weapon
- No Gets Hot (at least on the Heavy 3 version)
- Swaps Heavy Bolter for TL Smart Missile System
- JSJ (to either get cover or avoid melee)
- Considerably more durably chassis (Including immunity to crew shaken, stunned, immobilised, weapon destroyed)
- Can be tied up in melee, but is still a MC and so can fight back. Plus, it is just as tough in melee - whilst anything in melee with the Russ hits the vulnerable rear armour.

Am I missing something?

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




 dementedwombat wrote:


The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there.


It's not.

S3 will put wounds on it, melta and lascan will go through the 2+, it can't handle any assault, takes instant death, poison, etc. and if it's rolling nova invul save every turn it's probably not worth its points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vipoid wrote:
However, what you're effectively getting is a weapon that can reliably delete virtually any infantry squad in the game from 36" away


So you're EFFECTIVELY getting a weapon that can RELIABLY delete VIRTUALLY any infantry squad in the game ?

Where does that leave us precisely ?

And who the feth cares about an infantry squad. That weapon is the equivalent of say 3 plasma blasts ? 2 maybe ? don't tell me you're playing the one army that doesn't have access to that.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/01 10:00:01


 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





You are having this argument in three different threads at once. Stop spamming morgoth.

P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

morgoth wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:
 vipoid wrote:
However, what you're effectively getting is a weapon that can reliably delete virtually any infantry squad in the game from 36" away


So you're EFFECTIVELY getting a weapon that can RELIABLY delete VIRTUALLY any infantry squad in the game ?

Where does that leave us precisely ?


I said "effectively" because I was counting the Riptide Ion Accelerator and Markerlights as a single weapon (since their cost was being bunched together).

"Reliably" because a rerollable BS6 Large Blast seems pretty damn reliable.

"Virtually" because S8 AP2 Ignores Cover is enough to wipe out *most* units. However, there are a few infantry units who do have some protection against it (e.g. this is one instance where the Thousand Sons 4++ save would be really useful) - hence I said "virtually" any infantry squad.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Imperial Guard Landspeeder Pilot




On moon miranda.

morgoth wrote:
 dementedwombat wrote:


The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there.


It's not.

S3 will put wounds on it, melta and lascan will go through the 2+, it can't handle any assault, takes instant death, poison, etc. and if it's rolling nova invul save every turn it's probably not worth its points.
S3 isn't putting very many wounds on it. Yeah, in theory it can happen, but against a barebones Riptide you'll need an average of 72 lasgun shots to average 1 wound that sticks, 108 if it's got FNP. As for assaults, it's WS and Init are crappy, but 3 S6 attacks that ignore armor also isn't anything to sneeze at, against anything that lacks a high S AP2 weapon, the Riptide stands a decent chance of winning combat against lots of units (usually by inflicting one wound and taking none back and forcing an fallback test on a 7 or 8 for most units).

Yeah, melta and lascannons go through on a 2+, they also functionally hurt Wave Serpents on similar scores (the melta a little more effectively the lascannon a little less effectively), also, funnily enough, if we're talking meltaguns, statistically it takes fewer meltaguns to kill an AV14 4HP Land Raider that's 250pts than a 185pt barebones riptide (and about 4x as many to kill a 3++ shielded FNP Riptide...). The the invul helps, and even if its nova charging that invul, that saves games in and of itself. Pretty consistently, the most complained about units are also amongst the most survivable or difficult to negate, not simply those that are exceedingly killy. Having a riptide standing in the middle of the board being an imminent threat to just about anything and forcing itself to be dealt with and shrugging off gigantic amounts of firepower has won more than one game.

One will notice that the majority of units that typically see lots of complaints are not simply the killiest units, but those that are either highly resilient or killy and highly resilient. The Wave Serpent being another excellent example.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/01 11:34:31


IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.

New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights!
The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.  
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/01 12:21:43




"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in au
Towering Hierophant Bio-Titan





morgoth wrote:
 dementedwombat wrote:


The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there.


It's not.

S3 will put wounds on it, melta and lascan will go through the 2+, it can't handle any assault, takes instant death, poison, etc. and if it's rolling nova invul save every turn it's probably not worth its points.



Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/01 12:26:30


P.S.A. I won't read your posts if you break it into a million separate quotes and make an eyesore of it. 
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

 SHUPPET wrote:
morgoth wrote:
 dementedwombat wrote:


The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there.


It's not.

S3 will put wounds on it, melta and lascan will go through the 2+, it can't handle any assault, takes instant death, poison, etc. and if it's rolling nova invul save every turn it's probably not worth its points.



Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.


Saint Celestine?



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in gb
Killer Klaivex




The dark behind the eyes.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

Saint Celestine?


Not any more.

If it was back in 5th, when she could never be permanently killed, then I'd probably agree.

 blood reaper wrote:
I will respect human rights and trans people but I will never under any circumstances use the phrase 'folks' or 'ya'll'. I would rather be killed by firing squad.



 the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, when i read the small novel that is the Death Guard unit options and think about resolving the attacks from a melee-oriented min size death guard squad, the thing that springs to mind is "Accessible!"

 Argive wrote:
GW seems to have a crystal ball and just pulls hairbrained ideas out of their backside for the most part.


 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

"Prepare to open fire at that towering Wraithknight!"
"ARE YOU DAFT MAN!?! YOU MIGHT HIT THE MEN WHO COME UP TO ITS ANKLES!!!"


Akiasura wrote:
I hate to sound like a serial killer, but I'll be reaching for my friend occam's razor yet again.


 insaniak wrote:

You're not. If you're worried about your opponent using 'fake' rules, you're having fun the wrong way. This hobby isn't about rules. It's about buying Citadel miniatures.

Please report to your nearest GW store for attitude readjustment. Take your wallet.
 
   
Made in us
Beautiful and Deadly Keeper of Secrets





 vipoid wrote:
 Furyou Miko wrote:

Saint Celestine?


Not any more.

If it was back in 5th, when she could never be permanently killed, then I'd probably agree.


Those rules were hilarious, she'd get back up, flame, charge, die. Revive, flame, charge. Revive, flame charge. Pretty sure she could take on nearly any army just by being more stubborn then Necrons.
   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

Well, technically if the game ends before you choose to activate Miraculous Intervention, she hasn't died... you have to be a bit of a Richard to do it, but this is a staple of the "Deny Slay the Warlord" tactic.



"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




 SHUPPET wrote:
Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.

Against what ?

That's the thing, you're always talking survivability and whatnot, but you have no idea of what it's survivable against.

Is it better than 200 points of vehicle against AV weapons ? yes it is because it's not a vehicle.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against Plasma ? I think not.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against 4 Punishers or equivalent ? I think not.

Etc.

You should try making your statement a bit more precise, like "very survivable in a meta with Tau:farsight bomb, AM/DA with paskisher, centurionstar,screamerstar,ws spam", and then it would maybe hold some meaning.

For 200 points, I take two packs of 33 conscripts, max unit coherency distance, that's 66 raw HP plus cover save, compared to the Riptides 36 raw HP including it's 2+ save. Yes it's a lot more survivable than a Riptide (even if it's not a legal troop choice).

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/01 13:26:14


 
   
Made in gb
Thermo-Optical Hac Tao





Gosport, UK

morgoth wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.

Against what ?

That's the thing, you're always talking survivability and whatnot, but you have no idea of what it's survivable against.

Is it better than 200 points of vehicle against AV weapons ? yes it is because it's not a vehicle.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against Plasma ? I think not.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against 4 Punishers or equivalent ? I think not.

Etc.

You should try making your statement a bit more precise, like "very survivable in a meta with Tau:farsight bomb, AM/DA with paskisher, centurionstar,screamerstar,ws spam", and then it would maybe hold some meaning.

For 200 points, I take two packs of 33 conscripts, max unit coherency distance, that's 66 raw HP plus cover save, compared to the Riptides 36 raw HP including it's 2+ save. Yes it's a lot more survivable than a Riptide (even if it's not a legal troop choice).


I was prepared to take this seriously til you said 'not a legal troops choice'. I'm sure there's lots of things more survivable than a Riptide when used illegally...
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Furyou Miko wrote:
Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.


So you build an army entirely around the idea to not shoot down a Riptide, then complain because you can't shoot it down ?

Try with an army designed to shoot one down, then move from there to a TAC list, and you'll have learned something.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ImAGeek wrote:
I was prepared to take this seriously til you said 'not a legal troops choice'. I'm sure there's lots of things more survivable than a Riptide when used illegally...


Legal troop choice as AM ends up at 48 raw HP prior to any cover saves, 57.6 with a GtG (6+) cover save, 72 against weapons with AP6 or less.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/11/01 13:45:06


 
   
Made in gb
Stubborn Dark Angels Veteran Sergeant






morgoth wrote:
 SHUPPET wrote:
Tell me a unit for <200 points that has better survivability than a Riptide. You won't.

Against what ?

That's the thing, you're always talking survivability and whatnot, but you have no idea of what it's survivable against.

Is it better than 200 points of vehicle against AV weapons ? yes it is because it's not a vehicle.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against Plasma ? I think not.
Is it more survivable than 200 points of vehicle against 4 Punishers or equivalent ? I think not.

Etc.

You should try making your statement a bit more precise, like "very survivable in a meta with Tau:farsight bomb, AM/DA with paskisher, centurionstar,screamerstar,ws spam", and then it would maybe hold some meaning.

For 200 points, I take two packs of 33 conscripts, max unit coherency distance, that's 66 raw HP plus cover save, compared to the Riptides 36 raw HP including it's 2+ save. Yes it's a lot more survivable than a Riptide (even if it's not a legal troop choice).

Stop being so pedantic. Of course there are outliers of durability when it comes to XvsY.
Under most circumstances the riptide is one of the most durable options for its price range, due to its stats and great mobility.

   
Made in gb
Hallowed Canoness





Between

morgoth wrote:
 Furyou Miko wrote:
Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.


So you build an army entirely around the idea to not shoot down a Riptide, then complain because you can't shoot it down ?

Try with an army designed to shoot one down, then move from there to a TAC list, and you'll have learned something.
.


... what?

No, I build an army designed to take on anything it comes up against, and in order to take on a Riptide, I have to spend an entire shooting phase to kill it. Edit upon consideration: probably two shooting phases.

Not to mention the fact that an army designed to kill a Riptide is going to struggle against armour, infantry or flier lists...

I mean, sure. I know my opponent is going to be spamming Riptides? I'll just run Dual Repentia + Priests in Inq. Land Raiders. The riptides won't last three turns. Take that army against a Guard... well, anything, and I'll be dead in the water.

Do try to stop assuming that everyone disagreeing with you is a newbie or an idiot, Morgoth. It only works against you.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/01 14:37:34




"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad. 
   
Made in il
Warplord Titan Princeps of Tzeentch






 vipoid wrote:

 dementedwombat wrote:

2. Riptide: Overrated. I'm guessing this one is going to get a few raised eyebrows, but especially since 7th edition it is just not that great as anything other than a brick unless you put crazy amounts of support in your list specifically to feed the riptide. I'll write out my argument in full for this because it's pretty controversial I admit.

Let's look at the Ion Accelerator. That's why you're playing the riptide (if you're using the heavy burst cannon might I kindly recommend either a squad of fire warriors and an Ethereal or a squad of broadsides). It is a pretty awesome weapon, but it is a gets hot blast template on a BS 3 model. Someone did the math and on average a blast from a BS 3 model will scatter 2.7 inches (when you translate this to real dice results, you will get 3 or more inches of scatter over half the time). A large blast template is 5" across. That means over half the time you won't be hitting whatever you put the template on top of. Over half the time... Counting in gets hot you've got a weapon that actually does what you want it to do (hit a bunched up squad of 2+ armor save dudes) less than 40% of the time. I don't like paying 225 points for less than a coin flip chance of doing what I want.

Markerlights. Yes, they do help out the riptide. Yes, a BS 6 riptide with ignores cover is amazing. However, that requires 5 markerlight tokens (3 if you can live without ignores cover, but I have found that the shot is almost wasted if you let the opponent get a cover save. It's the biggest gun you have.) That is 10 pathfinders or 15 marker drones, or 6 marker drones and a commander (and if you are using that last option may I ask why you are devoting an HQ slot and 100 points to this particular task). So basically, you are using your entire army's allotment of markerlights to feed one riptide when you could instead be feeding, say, three squads of fire warriors with an ethereal, or two broadside squads, or a whole fleet of dual plasma crisis suits.

The durability is the elephant in the room in this particular discussion. I will admit the riptide is one of the hardest things to kill out there. However, it is not super scoring, and it has no close combat ability, and it costs way too many points just to be a tarpit.


If you include the support, then it is expensive. However, what you're effectively getting is a weapon that can reliably delete virtually any infantry squad in the game from 36" away (measuring from the markerlights).

Also, even without the support, it hardly seems bad. I mean, compare a Riptide with Ion Accelerator it to the Leman Russ Executioner (which effectively has 3 plasma cannons as its main weapon). You're paying 30 more points, but you get:
- Night Vision
- Twice the range of main weapon
- No Gets Hot (at least on the Heavy 3 version)
- Swaps Heavy Bolter for TL Smart Missile System
- JSJ (to either get cover or avoid melee)
- Considerably more durably chassis (Including immunity to crew shaken, stunned, immobilised, weapon destroyed)
- Can be tied up in melee, but is still a MC and so can fight back. Plus, it is just as tough in melee - whilst anything in melee with the Russ hits the vulnerable rear armour.

Am I missing something?



Nope, the ion accelerator is as broken as it gets. nearly as absurd as the serpent shield.

can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
   
Made in us
Gargantuan Gargant





New Bedford, MA USA

Can we agree that the Riptide is not underated and move on ?

   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Under most circumstances the riptide is one of the most durable options for its price range, due to its stats and great mobility.


Under Big Blind Bill's most (undefined) circumstances, the riptide is (now) one of the most durable options for its price range (and not the most durable anymore), due to its stats and (not so) great mobility.
   
Made in no
Dakka Veteran




Space Marine Scouts - Underrated! I've only played with these guys a couple of times, but I've loved them every time. There are just so many tactical uses. Being able to Outflank and come in behind a Wave Serpent and rapid fire in its rear armour (even if it's just glancing), sneaking around as a low-priority target securing Maelstrom points, Linebreaker etc.,

Wraithknights - Overrated. Except for when they get into combat with my knight I've rarely seen them make their points back.

Flyers in general - Overrated. How many flyers really make up such a big threat that I can't just ignore them? Yet I see so many people dedicate a considerable point investment in including Anti-Air in their lists (I know this is to combat FMC's too, but flyers are often mentioned as a threat)
   
Made in be
Longtime Dakkanaut




 Furyou Miko wrote:
morgoth wrote:
 Furyou Miko wrote:
Any single model under 200 points that takes the majority of an entire 1500 point army to take down... it too resilient.


So you build an army entirely around the idea to not shoot down a Riptide, then complain because you can't shoot it down ?

Try with an army designed to shoot one down, then move from there to a TAC list, and you'll have learned something.
.


... what?

No, I build an army designed to take on anything it comes up against, and in order to take on a Riptide, I have to spend an entire shooting phase to kill it. Edit upon consideration: probably two shooting phases.

Not to mention the fact that an army designed to kill a Riptide is going to struggle against armour, infantry or flier lists...

I mean, sure. I know my opponent is going to be spamming Riptides? I'll just run Dual Repentia + Priests in Inq. Land Raiders. The riptides won't last three turns. Take that army against a Guard... well, anything, and I'll be dead in the water.

Do try to stop assuming that everyone disagreeing with you is a newbie or an idiot, Morgoth. It only works against you.


How is it possible that an army designed to take on anything it comes up against, including a Riptide, cannot handle it ?

Oh. right. now you'd like that your 1500 point army deals as much damage in shooting as 1500 points of Riptides and you're disappointed (that's about what it takes to kill one Riptide with Riptides).

So basically, your TAC is not TAC enough and your opinion that your 1500 point TAC army should be able to one-phase a Riptide is wrong.

Unless you're one of the best pure shooting army with a pure shooting list, it's not going to happen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 adamsouza wrote:
Can we agree that the Riptide is not underated and move on ?


I think he said overrated.

The Riptide is probably overrated, just like everything that's really good that people make into exaggerated legends, like that lone WraithKnight that killed a whole 2500 points army by itself, and that Wave Serpent that won all tournaments from the beginning of time to over 9000, etc.

That being said, it's probably not *that* much overrated, I think it's an excellent unit, just like the WK or the WS.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
GrafWattenburg wrote:

Wraithknights - Overrated. Except for when they get into combat with my knight I've rarely seen them make their points back.

What knight ?

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/01 16:16:59


 
   
 
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