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 Korinov wrote:
According to things I've read, I'd say it was more than a simple test.

I don't know to what degree low-quality could have been an issue, since nowadays some recasters offer models of higher quality than the official FW products.

I'll take personally knowing many of the manufacturing staff and managers involved over an internet forum any day. Also, testing doesn't mean you just test one mold and a few dozen sprues or parts, you have to test the entire process from beginning to end over a period of time to ensure it functions properly. So it makes sense to just start producing a small number of products for retail as the test.

I can't be certain of the reasons for GW not continuing to use China, but what I've been able to figure from conversations over the years is that there are just too many issues with China ranging from poor communication to lack of quality control and also a lack of understanding about the level of quality expected by GW. China is all about "cheap and fast", not quality.

 Korinov wrote:
I've been told some of their bigger plastic kits - like the Stompa - have been cast in China as well, but I'm uncertain about the validity of such claims.

Didn't know about the Arcane Ruins set and all the issues GW had with it. Thanks for sharing the info.

I was never given a list of the products, since I left GW in 2007, but I was told some of the (at the time new) products were part of that. The Stompa could have been one. I do know they did have Stompa molds in Memphis, I would assume they produced them there for a time until production was shut down.


As far as recasting being "morally reprehensible" that would depend on the individuals morals. I don't have an issue with recasts if the product being recast is out of production and no longer available or if it's for personal use.

Selling a recast of something currently or easily available (in the case of OOP product) would be unethical in my mind, but not morally reprehensible.

 Desubot wrote:
Shouldn't this tread need a poll? to see if people actually think it is too expensive?

Personally i find it at just right. Besides the shipping costs. also apparently they goof some times and charge vats to us murcans.

Personally I find that it costs more for no reason at all. They are both English manufactures of models. They makes models for the same game. Both have shipped production out to china before. Nether quality is stand out better than the other (speaking objectively - they both have some very fine models) - they are just different styles. Now I understand that FW makes less product, that is not my issue as a consumer, if you can't meet your demand you need to up your production - not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this). They just released rules that allow you to take FW without consent of your opponent. All I was saying is from a business prospective they are costing themselves money. There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay...If you don't believe me you will just have to take my word on this.I don't think a poll would solve much in this case as, I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player. Most would never consider buying FW at those prices, yet on dakka you have a pretty big group adamantly defending the prices which can be close to double and sometimes over double.

And yet there have been examples of higher quality forgeworld models for the same price or cheaper than their GW counter parts. Higher quality rulebooks which whilst costing more are well worth the price and some incredibly stunning models in resin (more expensive than plastic I'm told). Forgeworld makes niche models, those that can be sold for X amount of time before moving on to the next cool idea. They do what they find cool, in small numbers, at boutique prices. They are in no way competing with core GW because FW has always been the boutique premium brand.

not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Not really, fixing on a few strong units that Fw make and ignoring all the other solid/decent/mediocre stuff is akin to saying GW is PTW because of Wave Serpents or Riptides.

Neither of your examples are especially broken either, just better than average.

Is there a space marine tank you'd take over a sicarian for a tournament list?

That wasn't my point, have another go.

I think the best example here is your classic super market strategy. Most products are broken down into your 3 basic catagories

Basic
Own
Premium

Now if you're buying a loaf of bread, whichever you go with you're getting a load of bread. Juts different ingredients, different styles to suit different people.

Basic clip together models are GW basics
Standard GW is the own brand
Forgeworld is the Premium brand, different ingredients and a different take on a similar concept.

There is nothing wrong with liking basic or standard, or finding premium too expensive for your tastes. But in those cases you likely arent the target of the premium brand to start it.

 Desubot wrote:
not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

Well, I tried to make a poll once and it turned out to be an epic fail. If you would post the poll that would be awesome - I'm interested to know.

 Melcavuk wrote:
I think the best example here is your classic super market strategy. Most products are broken down into your 3 basic catagories

Basic
Own
Premium

Now if you're buying a loaf of bread, whichever you go with you're getting a load of bread. Juts different ingredients, different styles to suit different people.

Basic clip together models are GW basics
Standard GW is the own brand
Forgeworld is the Premium brand, different ingredients and a different take on a similar concept.

There is nothing wrong with liking basic or standard, or finding premium too expensive for your tastes. But in those cases you likely arent the target of the premium brand to start it.

The only problem with that beakdown is that GW considers all of their products as 'Premium' and have so stated to their own shareholders.



That image makes me smile - every time I see it!

The Auld Grump

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

Well, I tried to make a poll once and it turned out to be an epic fail. If you would post the poll that would be awesome - I'm interested to know.

Really?

Is it too hard to put yes/no/indiffrent?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
Shouldn't this tread need a poll? to see if people actually think it is too expensive?

Personally i find it at just right. Besides the shipping costs. also apparently they goof some times and charge vats to us murcans.

Personally I find that it costs more for no reason at all. They are both English manufactures of models. They makes models for the same game. Both have shipped production out to china before. Nether quality is stand out better than the other (speaking objectively - they both have some very fine models) - they are just different styles. Now I understand that FW makes less product, that is not my issue as a consumer, if you can't meet your demand you need to up your production - not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this). They just released rules that allow you to take FW without consent of your opponent. All I was saying is from a business prospective they are costing themselves money. There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay...If you don't believe me you will just have to take my word on this.I don't think a poll would solve much in this case as, I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player. Most would never consider buying FW at those prices, yet on dakka you have a pretty big group adamantly defending the prices which can be close to double and sometimes over double.

Gonna step in here.

Their costs are high because they sell niche products. Anything they'd make that would sell in sufficient quantities to be able to lower the price would simply be taken by the main GW studio and put into plastic, which has happened several times. Their costs are different and their initial sculpting is much more of a cottage industry type deal than the more CAD oriented stuff GW does. They have different costs, and they produce products largely for smaller markets.

Simply upping production without a clear corresponding increase in demand will do nothing but leave them with a bunch of stock that they've invested in for a relatively small increase in sales. If they reduce prices by 50%, they're not suddenly going to sell twice as many sets of Imperial Fists Rhino Doors for instance, firstly because there just aren't that many Imperial Fists players out there, and secondly because there's even less that would care about spending *any* extra amount of money on a product like that.. Even if they did, depending on their margin, they might still be making less money than they were, if their margin was say, 200% (not uncommon for niche-luxury products like they make), reducing prices by 50% means their margin has dropped to 50%, and they'd need to sell *4X* as much product as before to make the same profit, so doubling sales would still result in a net loss, and that's not even considering that they might not have the production capability to meet that demand.

Now, there's a case to be made that GW's core products have risen far too highly and could use a price decrease, as the exact same products have risen in price far higher than inflation would dictate and its clear their Real (inflation-adjusted) revenue is dropping over time, but FW's prices, while always high, only rise largley in line with inflation almost exactly, and they're doing just fine by all accounts.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

Well, I tried to make a poll once and it turned out to be an epic fail. If you would post the poll that would be awesome - I'm interested to know.

Really?

Is it too hard to put yes/no/indiffrent?

You want to post a poll, or shall I?

I would break it down as :
Are Prices for Forge World Products Too High?
1.) No.
2.) No, but the postage is absurd.
3.) A Bit High, but Worth It Compared to Standard GW.
4.) Too High.
5.) Way Too Freakin' High.

Personally, I would go with 2. or maybe 3..

The Auld Grump

I too am around 2-3

Usually 2 for me, I mean 12% doesnt seem bad at low numbers, but when you're looking at 15-25 postage on an order its dumb.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
not raise prices or do nothing at all (which seems to be FW take in this)
There are a lot more people that wont by FW because it's cost is too high than people who think the price is okay
I'm sure that the population of dakka is a pretty poor representative to your average 40k player
Most would never consider buying FW at those prices,

Proof of this?

This thread is usless without any sort of actual data

Obviously if they sent everything out to china for actual models then you have MASSIVE issues with knock offs and stolen molds which always happen. its far more controlled within europe besides the recaster issue which is a whole nother bag of cats. and the net gain of that is price increases to cover the perceived counterfeit loss which most companies do.

Well, I tried to make a poll once and it turned out to be an epic fail. If you would post the poll that would be awesome - I'm interested to know.

Really?

Is it too hard to put yes/no/indiffrent?

You want to post a poll, or shall I?

I would break it down as :
Are Prices for Forge World Products Too High?
1.) No.
2.) No, but the postage is absurd.
3.) A Bit High, but Worth It Compared to Standard GW.
4.) Too High.
5.) Way Too Freakin' High.

Personally, I would go with 2. or maybe 3..

The Auld Grump

Just remove option 1 and 5 and it's a great poll.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Just remove option 1 and 5 and it's a great poll.

Why would you say that?

Chicken/egg. This is a low-volume business and the costs are in the setup to make a kit, not the marginal cost of making the next box. If you want prices to go down there have to be more customers.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 Melcavuk wrote:
I think the best example here is your classic super market strategy. Most products are broken down into your 3 basic catagories

Basic
Own
Premium

Now if you're buying a loaf of bread, whichever you go with you're getting a load of bread. Juts different ingredients, different styles to suit different people.

Basic clip together models are GW basics
Standard GW is the own brand
Forgeworld is the Premium brand, different ingredients and a different take on a similar concept.

There is nothing wrong with liking basic or standard, or finding premium too expensive for your tastes. But in those cases you likely arent the target of the premium brand to start it.

The only problem with that beakdown is that GW considers all of their products as 'Premium' and have so stated to their own shareholders.



That image makes me smile - every time I see it!

The Auld Grump

I don't consider ether product an upgrade over the other. Both have amazing models. You can't just claim something is of higher quality because it costs more. These are not purses. These are construct able models. As long as they have their represented detail and be build according to their specifications how can you say one model is of higher quality than the other? I also don't consider weight to be a measure of quality ether.

These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Just remove option 1 and 5 and it's a great poll.

Why would you say that?

Is there any question that the shipping cost is absurd? and option 4-5 mean the same thing.

I don't consider ether product an upgrade over the other. Both have amazing models. You can't just claim something is of higher quality because it costs more. These are not purses. These are construct able models. As long as they have their represented detail and be build according to their specifications how can you say one model is of higher quality than the other? I also don't consider weight to be a measure of quality ether.

Quality of sculpt, detail retention of casting material, product matter.

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

On top of that I'm sure GW has moved into computer generating their molds. This would explain their recent surge of excellent models.

The price issue is a moving target too, one which seems to become more divergent with reality according to the kit size (to a point.)

£20 or so for a character/HQ model is generally quite acceptable. £30 or so for a squad of 5 models isn't too bad either.

The costs of the Titans, large monsters etc is also significant, but can be mitigated a little by the fact that they're low volume and probably time intensive to cast (although a lower price may mean higher volume and consequent economies, but meh)

Where they're really bonkers is some of the mid size stuff, the Dreadnoughts being the classic example and the really small stuff (like the shoulder pad sets and the Rhino doors, oh Lordy! the Rhino doors!)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

You are kidding right?

I always thought FW prices were fine, but I guess I've been comparing them to other resin model kit's I've bought from companies like G-System, Hobbyfan and E2046.

I'm aware that they are two different types of model kits that appeal to different customers but when I see the prices of FW model kits compared to these, FW (for most of it's kits) is pretty affordable and the quality of the castings is far better.

There is a wide range of costs for both FW and these other kit manufacturers,prices can range from $30 to $1000+, but on the whole my experience with FW is that they are better quality castings and you get more "use" out of them.

Is it that the models FW sells more expensive (dollar-wise) than their usefulness in the game systems?

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

You are kidding right?

Explain to me how the process is different?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

HIP kits production and resin casting are NOTHING alike. The costs involved, how the costs are linked to volume of production, the time taken and the materials used are all massively different. Once a die is cut for a plastic kit, the most significant cost, then your costs diminish for each kit you sell, and the production of the Sprue is a semi automated process. Resin casting requires an element of skill, a lot more time than a plastic kit, and the regular replacement of the moulds due to wear and tear, the ongoing production costs associated with resin casting are much higher.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

You are kidding right?

Explain to me how the process is different?

Besides the fact that one is a milled into a metal mold, the other is physicily hand casted using silicone. and that one injects molten plastic at pressure and is finished in less than a second and the other requires curing times depending on the resin mix that is actually being used?
Oh and the various degassing processes and stuff and how you need to physically cut channels and vents that is nearlly an art form in it self to get right.
Do you even know what you are talking about?

 Azreal13 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Desubot wrote:
These are comparable to purses as they are both luxury items...

Its Branding

Its like the difference between a cheap casino watch to a rolex. one is made of plastic and can be mass produced, the other is generally hand made and assembled.

If anything (and we all know this) FW isnt the expensive one, its GW side plastic.

GW plastics and FW resins use basically the same technology to make their models. The material is different but it doesn't equate to one being hand made and the other being mass produced. the initial process of making the mold is identical. An artist carves out a mold and then the material is heated and cooled inside the mold. It's basically the exact same process.

HIP kits production and resin casting are NOTHING alike. The costs involved, how the costs are linked to volume of production, the time taken and the materials used are all massively different. Once a die is cut for a plastic kit, the most significant cost, then your costs diminish for each kit you sell, and the production of the Sprue is a semi automated process. Resin casting requires an element of skill, a lot more time than a plastic kit, and the regular replacement of the moulds due to wear and tear, the ongoing production costs associated with resin casting are much higher.

They are at least something a like because they both cast a mould to pump a material into it to make a model. Please you are making it sound like brain surgery to cast a modle in resin. Half the stuff on your dashboard was made with this method...so it really isn't that special of a skill.

 Xenomancers wrote:

They are at least something a like because they both cast a mould to pump a material into it to make a model. Please you are making it sound like brain surgery to cast a modle in resin. Half the stuff on your dashboard was made with this method...so it really isn't that special of a skill.

Yeah you definitely dont know what you are talking about