Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I don't think "boardgame plastic" (PVC) is good enough to cast and hold all the details that Tre puts into his work...

All great points Weeble.

I am not saying that metal is goign away any time soon btu peopel are putting more money in to new plastic products than they are new metal products. Every new plastic product KS whittles the value of minis down that much more. Add to that the fact there is a new big box of plastics KS every other month and the situation is that much worse.

I know that metal is nto goign anywhere soon but looking at the trends in the larger companies is the best way to gauge where the community's interests will be goign in the future.

As for who is stickign with metal and who is going plastic. I am certain beyond any doubt that all major companies are looking to plastic where possible.

As for whether my current range will work with PVC or not..... I really don;t know. I am being informed that the materials have come a LONG way in a relatively short period of time.

I think the best thing to do is to design for the medium and in doign so you can get some great results.

I don't think you're competing with big box plastic campaigns... you've got a whole different level of quality, and also inexperience with plastic... I really hope you stick to metal! Unless you can partner with an expert, but going it alone, you will have more success on your current path of making sculpts that can be cast in metal, than braving the learning curve of sculpting for plastic, not to mention having those plastics produced!

Well I am actually competing with those big box projects. How many people do you think did NOT contribute to the Monolith's Conan in favor of my most recent project? How many people did not contribute to the Blood Rage project in favour of mine? There certainly were a few and they are GREATLY appreciated, but the harsh reality is that there were not enough to put me in a position to compete with the market share of those games. Market share is the life's blood of any company and product line. Now CMoN has another KS launching in April and then another in May. And then most likely another in June. And that is JUST CMoN! There ar enew companies entering the arena every month. The people who buy in to those campaigns are often the very same people who buy my miniatures as well. And while my product may occupy a different strata of quality in the minds of those supporters they are still beholden to the extent of their disposable income and the forced urgency of KS and the artificial impetus of " Limited edition " freebies or add-ons.

True I can afford to continue as I have while still competing with these big box projects but I doubt that I will be able to grow the way that I want to / NEED to in order to actually gain market share and make something special out of RBG. I really do not want to be a garage business forever. I want to put the RBG brand on par with Privateer Press and Wyrd. I want a snazzy web site, a game, cards, boxed sets, the whole thing. And I can do it IF I change my tactics and have the support of the audience.

As for plastics........Adam Poots had precious little idea what he was doing when he launched KD Monster. Believe it or not. MOST of his experience has come since makign the change to hard plastic. In fact Poots did nto even plan for plastic to begin with, and what experiecne he did have with plastic was in PVC rather than ABS. Same goes for CMoN. Wyrd did not know what they were doign at first either. These companies outsourced the production to a firm with experience and then learned as they went. In Wyrd's particular case they literally just handed over the entire process to outside studios. From concept to production.

I have done a LOT of research into plastics. I have had lengthy conversations with the actual producers of the molds and casting of plastci and have had a lto of conversations with artists who have worked toward plastic products. In so far as i am informed there have been some very significant strides made in mold production and in plastics recipes. I understand the methods of manufacture and I also understand the limitatiosn there of. If I aim at plastic production I will be avoiding practices in my sculpting that woudl not work for plastic production.

The thing with Monolith's Conan and CMON's Blood Rage is they are full games in a box,

(and Monolith also has the pull of the Conan name that pulled in a lot of first time KS backers who... based on looking at backer profiles... who may well not be gamers of any sort, just those keen on anything Conan)

so while there is some cross over with mini game buyers the majority of the backers are people like those on BGG who would never have backed your project

so while plastic (and more importantly the ability to give free stuff to backers) is important the 'everything in the box' factor is a big one too

Kingdom Death/CMON/Wyrd certainly learned about plastic production as they went, but they had solid foundations to build on,

KD with their LE resins that sold out whenever they were offered, then changed hands for crazy money on ebay, CMON with their webstore/distribution business and Wyrd with a pretty successful well distributed game in Malifaux

Just look at Mantic they tried a different manufactuer for their HIPs Goblins as Renendra was to busy/too expensive and ended basically a mess (that I bet would have come close to sinking them if it had been their first release)

so while looking into plastic production for your stuff is no bad thing, thinking of it the only solution needed is very risky

Oh no I am not thinking it is the one and only backet into which to place all of my eggs. I am just aware that it does present certain advantages that can mean the difference between success or failure. And believe me I have tried getting RBG into distribution and I kid you not, I do nto even get the time of day. Never have. I have had offers from distributors to essentially buy RBG from me for a fraction of the value and then pay me as a sculptor to continue growing the line for them but I have refused these " offers ".

And thanks for keepign that link nd image as a Sig. An example I should be following.



Plastic production will allow me to price my product competitively and box a lto of stuff together. I am thinking something similar to CMoN's Wrath of Kings here or Wyrd's Malifaux sets.

One thing I want to be sure everyone understands. i am not trying to make a quick buck here, I am trying to survive and thrive in a super crowded market.

 tre manor wrote:
I have had offers from distributors to essentially buy RBG from me for a fraction of the value and then pay me as a sculptor to continue growing the line for them but I have refused these " offers ".

Wow, the is one of the biggest donkey-cave moves I've heard of in awhile.

Re: Plastics for RBG. I think iy could be a good move, if you are careful about it.

People still hate on PVC but the latest Zombicide miniatures and the Wrath of Kings miniatures all look pretty damn good, so it shouldn't be written off entirely.

~Eric

Well, your talent combined with a fun game system will do that, I'd think!

I'm looking forward to The Secret Project, soon to launch (maybe!), so I can send lots of money your way!

As mentioned earlier, an 'Infinity' style of game (10 to 20 models MAX, with the usual being 10) in metal can absolutely survive - and thrive - today!

Yes.......secret project is launching soon. I am REALLY chomping at the bit to get it underway!

I am not sure, but one thing that might be the difference of you really taking off might be just having a game. The examples you sited all had games. It might be where if you had a game, you would be selling tons of metal minis like Infinity or warmachine was. On the other note, maybe having a game and going to plastic might even be more successful, I am not sure. I use your stuff for a generic system I like to use, and roleplaying. I think most people don't use generic systems (which I can't understand because I get to use all the cool models from different companies and ignore the crap that I don't like )
What ever you do, I hope you are successful because besides liking your product a lot, you are my favorite person in the industry for your personality and ethics, even your flaws like typing too fast make me smile

Thansk MDazerker.

I would love a skirmish game with your minis. I consider your designs and sculpting to be some of the best in the business, so you have what it takes to succeed.

I'd like to see you build a little extra into your projects to slowly (or quickly) get enough together to buy a metal casting setup of your own. Once you control the means of production yourself, you could theoretically drop the price to Old Glory/RPE retail price levels, which in turn would allow the building of full-sized armies. Neither of those companies have games, either - but both offer army-friendly pricing. Even Fitz' stuff is sold online by retailers at $30 for a unit of 10. Which means he's making enough on them to sell at wholesale for less than that... lower unit price but a higher turnover, more of your figures out there so more people see them... increasing demand... you know how it all works.

For what it is worth, the PVC stuff I got from Wrath of Kings is phenomenal in the trifecta of quality/detail of cast, ease of use, and cost.

I really love your sculpts, but I own zero of your minis. For me it has mostly been about price, I don't think it is unreasonable, but there are lots of other minis that are higher up the list due to being a better proposition on my personal trifecta metric mentioned above.

Not to add to the negativity or to make RBG's struggle seem more futile but the 2 main reasons I didn't back the latest project are the following.

#1 International currency valuation. The Canadian $ value is dropping absurdly. I believe the Euro is in a similar situation. This is of course tied to artificial, 'perceived' valuations and nothing that makes any logical sense, and nothing that anyone or anything other than a government has any power to influence. For RBG, I don't know what percentage of your customer base comes from these areas but I have no doubt this reality has some impact. Unless someone has a better I guess the only recourse for RBG would be to start a letter-writing campaign to your politicians demanding fairer systems of international currency valuation. Im guessing that's not gonna happen though, but where this thread reflects that even Americans have issues with price, as a web-based company, currency valuation is something you need to be aware of.

#2 I'm a painter, so I love the precision, character, and realism/realistic proportions of Tre's figures over many other offerings. However, I prefer females 90% of the time. And the campaigns have rarely involved many female figures. Certainly not enough that it's worth paying the postage for. For example, the last campaign had only a single unit. My recommendation: do a lot more females. Despite the currency issue I plan to pledge for your Amazon faction in the next campaign, but I guess we'll have to see how things play out.

it all comes down to price. Plastic, once the tools are paid for and the minimums settled, is FAR less expensive to produce and sell and ship than metal.

I will be setting up my own casting soon I hope. It really depends on whether or not i am able to set up a facility for it. Right now i am renting and I very seriously doubt my land lord would allow me to cast molten metal in their garage.

I don't know enough about the ins and outs of the industry to comment except to say that I am really excited for the big project and think that if you need to take a little time to make it completely awesome out of the gate, then do it. I want to see it do spectacularly well

Thanks Boos!

And that is exactly my goal. I think I can launch it properly in the next few months. I want to have a test run made in plastic first before i start goign all in for that mode of production. It means more money out of my pocket and a slightly longer lead time ont he campaign. But it also means I will know exactly what i am offering and so will everyone else.

Tre, if your landlord won't, my sister in law has a place over on the east side of Greenville (Ravenwood I think is the development name) and she would probably be down with casting in the garage. Her sister certainly has a lot of experience putting up with my casting business, which started in an apartment bathroom

.....do what now?? Are you in Greenville Wehrkind?

I think he was saying he has relatives there . I'm frequently down that way to visit family, too!

I would feel much more confident about plastic production if you are able to have a test done, like you mentioned above. Then you'd get to try out the process and not be caught off guard - like Kingdom Death certainly was, at least regarding lead time! The results (pictures) so far have certainly been impressive, though.

 tre manor wrote:
How many people do you think did NOT contribute to the Monolith's Conan in favor of my most recent project? How many people did not contribute to the Blood Rage project in favour of mine? There certainly were a few and they are GREATLY appreciated, but the harsh reality is that there were not enough to put me in a position to compete with the market share of those games.

I did but you make a fair point, and I certainly would love to see RBG grow!

My wife's sister lets a house there; she moved to FL a few years back. I am sadly still tied to Northern VA for a few more years. So close, but so far from RiTides's curly haired embrace.

If the wife and I do make it down to visit (we love that town) I will be sure to drop you a line for lunch!

Yeh man do that! You too RiTides!

Thanks for backing RiTides!

And yes a test is a must for me. I have been given fairly reliable advice on it but I do prefer having first hand knowledge if possible.

I've got to agree - I absolutely loved the 3 years I spent in Greenville South Carolina.

Go check out the Borderlands game store!

have done so. Twice. They were really busy though. I was wanting to talk to the Honcho about maybe selling RBG in the store but never got the chance as I did not want to interrupt.

Go by on one of their slow days (not a Wednesday or a Saturday, I'd guess) and go during the slow hours too - right around opening or maybe around 2pm.

Also, absolutely go here:

http://www.lieuschinesebistro.com/index.html

Some of the best Chinese I've had in the USA - I really miss that place still!

And don't forget to go to the zoo and see the scatophillic elephants. It is really... something. I think they do it just to mess with the people watching them.

Damn, now I want to visit SC this summer. The little sprog will love the zoo and the park, and I want to try that chinese place! (There is about zero decent Chinese food in NoVA.)

Just a note for reference that I've moved this to Dakka Discussions since it is a finished KS thread (Tre, feel free to start updating your "sneak peak" thread in N&R for news on your upcoming project, or to start a new thread if you prefer).

 Wehrkind wrote:
And don't forget to go to the zoo and see the scatophillic elephants. It is really... something. I think they do it just to mess with the people watching them.

Damn, now I want to visit SC this summer. The little sprog will love the zoo and the park, and I want to try that chinese place! (There is about zero decent Chinese food in NoVA.)

Good call on the Zoo and Cleveland Park - we spent a ton of time there with my kids!

On topic here - I think a RBG "Game" will help drive sales too, no matter what material format you ultimately decide to go with.