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Wraith Construct Auxillary

 Xerics wrote:
Wraith Construct Auxillary

Oh, for hell's sake, it's right there, bottom right hand corner of the page and under my nose.

Congrats, sir. Match well played.


- - - - - -- - -- - - -
Okay, I think we've found the thing that TOs will ban ... CraftWorld Warhost lists, which are basically, as already stated, lookin' like decurion goofery.

Seriously, Xerics, thanks for a patient discussion on citations and such. It's nice to have one without resorting to trolling.


I encourage more posting and examination of these two pages and how they seem to play out. Pages 94 & 95, CraftWorld Warhost.

 Xerics wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
If you think the codex is balanced and that the formations are limiting I present you this 1850 List

Windrider Host
Farseer Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Windriders x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x6
Vyper (Naked)
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon

Anyone who thinks this Dex is balanced I just ran the above list in a local game store tournament. I literally lost 1 wraith knight the entire night because a necron player had a nightbringer that happened to randomly get his D weapon on the top of the first turn and one shotted the wraithknight with 8 lost wounds and no saves allowed. Other than that I wiped the floor with imperial Knights, Ferrus Manus, Dark Eldar and nearly tabled the necrons. Running 4 wraithknights like I did is literally point and click unit removal.

TBH when I see your list I see a boring mono dimensional rock-paper-scissor list not unbeatable uber list. Out of curiosity what type of missions were played at this tournament?

Wraithknights are definitely undercosted and a list full of them is going to stomp the unprepared and unwary. I also cannot say that I like D weapons from a design stand point. However having said that the full wraithknight treatment like that list has common predators which were already popular contenders in tournaments. Examples of bad matchups are; drop pod grav cents lists, a freak show lists, or a WWP wraithguard D-Scythe lists each of which can eliminate 3+ wraithknights in a single turn. (funny enough the freak show list could actually kill the entire above list in a single turn with bad model placement, lol)

7th lets you play unbound already. You can take incredibly abusive lists already completely "legally".

If a player is taking 4x WKs, it's a TFG, right? Play an entire list of Necron Wraiths or something if you really want to join the race to the bottom.

GW broke the FOC restrictions intentionally to give players more freedom. Obviously it's a double edged sword!

Freedom of picking stuff is only a double edged sword, if you know that some armies have it much better then others do. If all armies are good it wouldn't matter, which codex decides to be unbound and which doesn't.

Not sure as an Tyranid player I am going to force eldar jetbikes to make a jink save when I have one unit (Exocrine, which they outrange by 12 inches) with a 3+ AP ranged weapon. I do have Warp Blast as a psychic attack, but that is even shorter range, I don't see me getting them into close combat, ever. My only chance would be with Flyrants, and only then because they lack the ability to skyfire, at least I hope they don't have some way to skyfire. But I also hear the fighter they have has some new, nasty rules so even the flyrants are going to be in trouble by the sounds of it.

It sounds as if all of their units got some improvement (except Waveserpent) and then this new force chart of theirs gives even more advantages. I really don't see how that sounds balanced, especially against the midline codices they produced for awhile.

 ansacs wrote:

 Xerics wrote:

 Xerics wrote:
If you think the codex is balanced and that the formations are limiting I present you this 1850 List

Windrider Host
Farseer Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Warlock Skyrunner: Singing Spear
Windriders x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x3
Windriders: Scatter Laser x6
Vyper (Naked)
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon
Wraithknight: 2 Star Cannon

Anyone who thinks this Dex is balanced I just ran the above list in a local game store tournament. I literally lost 1 wraith knight the entire night because a necron player had a nightbringer that happened to randomly get his D weapon on the top of the first turn and one shotted the wraithknight with 8 lost wounds and no saves allowed. Other than that I wiped the floor with imperial Knights, Ferrus Manus, Dark Eldar and nearly tabled the necrons. Running 4 wraithknights like I did is literally point and click unit removal.

TBH when I see your list I see a boring mono dimensional rock-paper-scissor list not unbeatable uber list. Out of curiosity what type of missions were played at this tournament?

Wraithknights are definitely undercosted and a list full of them is going to stomp the unprepared and unwary. I also cannot say that I like D weapons from a design stand point. However having said that the full wraithknight treatment like that list has common predators which were already popular contenders in tournaments. Examples of bad matchups are; drop pod grav cents lists, a freak show lists, or a WWP wraithguard D-Scythe lists each of which can eliminate 3+ wraithknights in a single turn. (funny enough the freak show list could actually kill the entire above list in a single turn with bad model placement, lol)

Random missions. I played both maelstrom and eternal war. Also remember that D scythes are D -1 so they cant get one shots. the wraithknight would be able to take his 5+ FNP from every hit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And drop pod grav cents might kill one before i smash them to pieces. I killed a primarch last night and he had a 3+ invulnerable save against the majority of my hits. also grav cents can be killed from wight of fire from guided jetbikes so there is that too. Wraithknights don't fear Dark Eldar anymore cause gargantuan creature can only be poisoned on a 6 now. The can shoot all their weapons as per the Gargantuan creatures rules so having those star cannons allows me to deal with more units with wraithknights. I played this list. Yes last night I was TFG. But i did it to prove a point. The list was untouchable. even a 5 Imperial Knight army cried and I let him all veteran knights (with the 3+ invulnerable save) just to make the game interesting.

"the wraithknight would be able to take his 5+ FNP from every hit"

Not on this one, FnP is specifically denied for D weapons, doesn't matter what the roll is.

Ok so no FNP rolls. But you are still having to use the Eldar codex against the Eldar codex. I am pretty sure we established that the only matchup for the eldar codex is itself.

(sarcasm) Well that proves it then. The eldar codex is totally balanced because you could easily beat it by using the eldar codex. (sarcasm)

Gonna love us some eldarhammer.

Well, I could bring an unbound list of 2 stompas and max them out with Supa Rokkitz and then IF i get firs turn I have a chance of maybe downing 1 of the 4 WK's and then probably get blown off the board the following turn because i just invested about 1,500pts into 2 models

My only chance would be with Flyrants, and only then because they lack the ability to skyfire, at least I hope they don't have some way to skyfire. But I also hear the fighter they have has some new, nasty rules so even the flyrants are going to be in trouble by the sounds of it.

Lots of EML available in the new Codex, from what I've been reading, and flak missiles seem to be standard on units that can take them... which, again, are lots of units.

Xerics wrote:Random missions. I played both maelstrom and eternal war.

So is this like the ITC with a primary and secondary or did you guys play one round with maelstorm and then another with eternal war?

Xerics wrote:Also remember that D scythes are D -1 so they cant get one shots. the wraithknight would be able to take his 5+ FNP from every hit.

One of the units I find the most abusive in the new codex is a unit of wraithguard with either gun + a WWP DE HQ attached. The D-Scythe unit comes down wherever you want and flames any target to death (even against the double D wraithknight a single shooting round averages more than a dead wraithknight). The unit then has wall of death to ward off any retaliating charges, btw 2 D-scythes on wall of death almost average a dead wraithknight. Personally I would probably also add a waveserpent to transport the unit so after they DS and shoot they can jump back in next turn.

Xerics wrote:And drop pod grav cents might kill one before i smash them to pieces. I killed a primarch last night and he had a 3+ invulnerable save against the majority of my hits. also grav cents can be killed from wight of fire from guided jetbikes so there is that too. Wraithknights don't fear Dark Eldar anymore cause gargantuan creature can only be poisoned on a 6 now. The can shoot all their weapons as per the Gargantuan creatures rules so having those star cannons allows me to deal with more units with wraithknights. I played this list. Yes last night I was TFG. But i did it to prove a point. The list was untouchable. even a 5 Imperial Knight army cried and I let him all veteran knights (with the 3+ invulnerable save) just to make the game interesting.

Of course you killed a primarch. That is exactly the type of target the double D wraithknight is perfect for killing. Any single model with lots of wounds is a single 6 away from death, invulnerable save or no.

Drop pod cents are cheaper than a bare bones wraithknight. If the meta shifts to 4-5 wraithknight lists then I shift to Imperial Fists/Blood Angels with 3 units of drop pod grav cents. The funny thing is that grav cents are lethal against all of the stuff that people are scared of in the eldar codex and they will almost undoubtedly get the alpha strike due to drop pods. Depending on whether I took libbies for my mandatory HQs and whether I got off prescience and took omni's on the sarges I would average 3-4 dead wraithknights in a single turn from just the dev cents shooting. Of course cover can mitigate some of it (but then again I would probably have more Str8/9 AP3/2 that could help if needed and I might get better psychic powers). The hardest part of the match would be positioning my units so that they cover the movement spheres of your remaining knight while still being in range of each other if you charge one unit (the remaining knight could realistically kill 1-2 of the cent dev units the following turn depending on luck and placement of the pod for cover and charge blocking). I never would have taken this style of list before as there was a very nasty mechanized list that it was a very poor matchup (ie serpent spam) but that isn't a problem anymore.

There are actually a few of the lists I commonly play that are very good matchups against 4-5 wraithknight lists. Mostly just because they have a mass of grav shooting or monster hunter/tank hunter plasma and the units which do all the work are either fast enough or DS in so the wraithknights cannot avoid them.

BTW even before this upgrade the wraithknight vs imperial knight matchup was almost always won by the wraithknight. You can actually find several batreps and I have seen it numerous times. Now it is just pathetically obvious.

Psienesis wrote:

My only chance would be with Flyrants, and only then because they lack the ability to skyfire, at least I hope they don't have some way to skyfire. But I also hear the fighter they have has some new, nasty rules so even the flyrants are going to be in trouble by the sounds of it.

Lots of EML available in the new Codex, from what I've been reading, and flak missiles seem to be standard on units that can take them... which, again, are lots of units.

EML are not a threat for flyrants. The crimson hunter formation very well could be though.

To counter an OP model everyone so far as pointed to either using more Eldar OP crap to counter Eldar OP crap or pointing to SM Grav Cents, regarded as OP in that they are amazing but they aren't as OP because of Price and the fact that they die fairly easy.

So besides SM and other Eldar players I would like to hear from members of the other races and see how they plan on countering this new threat.

Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To counter an OP model everyone so far as pointed to either using more Eldar OP crap to counter Eldar OP crap or pointing to SM Grav Cents, regarded as OP in that they are amazing but they aren't as OP because of Price and the fact that they die fairly easy.

So besides SM and other Eldar players I would like to hear from members of the other races and see how they plan on countering this new threat.

Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

Lootas have S7 shots dont they? You could throw a bunch of lootas at it and hope it dies under weight of fire.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

Off the top of my head...hidden power klaws, tankbustas, KMKs or other mek gunz, maybe nobz or meganobz depending on the loadout and numbers, or some combination of the above. You'd need a special "knight killa" loadout for some of them. Now, one WK is doable, tough obviously but for 300 points you expect tough. But four or five of them? You'd have to have an army specially designed around killing WKs. Honestly, even that would be pretty hard to manage.

Lootas...even 45 shots comes out to 15 hits, 5 wounds, and 1 or 2 failed saves. You'd need 3 full size loota mobs shooting at one WK to reasonably expect to bring it down in two turns, and you'd need to be lucky. Kannons or KMKs could maybe manage a wound for every four or five shots, but they're cheap so that's reasonable. Sadly they're heavy support like lootas, so you couldn't do both. Tankbustas could put a wound or two on it for each mob, depending on numbers, either shooting or CC. Dakkajets or bikes have volume of shots and high(er) odds to hit, but need 6s to wound and it gets its 3+ save, so you'd need 3 dakkajets to reliably put one wound on it, or 36 bikes.

Basically your whole army would have to shoot at it and it would still take a few turns and a lot of luck.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
So besides SM and other Eldar players I would like to hear from members of the other races and see how they plan on countering this new threat.

Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

Meganobs ? Maybe 3 to 4 nobs die at Init step 4, but then the other 6 (unit of 10, yes?) can carve the WraithKnight up? If it's only 5 Megas max, then get yourself a squiggoth. PM MikeFox on how to get a cheap one from China:

Scroll down to almost half way:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/150/629731.page

I play tau, too. And SM. And CSM. Wolves and DeathWing. DE. I have a Pask Force and veterans and Vendettas.

Tau: The Buff Crisis Team, STR 6 & 8, AP 2 & 1, TwinLinked. More Fusion/Melta on my other teams. Loads of Broadside STR 7.
SM: MLs, LCs, Termie fists & Hammers. SternG inna Pod with meltas.
IG: Plasma'cutioners, LasCans on the Vens, and the Veterans will bring a few meltas. Not guaranteed, but enough to bloody its nose.
DE: It was a 5e list, but I could bring 24 lances at 1850. I haven't bought the 7e dex but I bet I can get it in the ball park.
Wolves: I don't own TWC models, but they won't care about the WK.

It will be alright. Keep playing.

 Brothererekose wrote:
It will be alright. Keep playing.

Lol! "Keep calm and 40k on"

 Ghazkuul wrote:
To counter an OP model everyone so far as pointed to either using more Eldar OP crap to counter Eldar OP crap or pointing to SM Grav Cents, regarded as OP in that they are amazing but they aren't as OP because of Price and the fact that they die fairly easy.

So besides SM and other Eldar players I would like to hear from members of the other races and see how they plan on countering this new threat.

Im an ORK player and the only thing I can think of is Green Tide. seriously....thats it. What else can take on a WK in my codex?

If you're that set against the Wraithknight, my solution is simple: don't play against it.

Really, the Wraithknight is so OP it's obvious even to Eldar players (even if some don't want to admit it). D-weapons are also massively undercosted in the new codex. Same with Jetbikes. If I were you, I simply wouldn't play against armies that included these units. No game is preferable to an awful, unfun game.

But if you remove these elements, the new Eldar are actually surprisingly balanced against other armies. The Warhost isn't nearly as bad as people make it out to be; outside of jetbikes, the core is very restrictive and will cost your opponent 950-1000 points to make it work. And that's before the mandatory auxiliary formations, each of which are just as restrictive.

Really, it's a case of avoiding games with the local Eldar cheesemonger, and you might even get in a good game against the space elves.

I have not had the chance to look at the codex myself, but from what I have heard, I do agree.

The jetbikes and wraithknight are brokenly good, especially when spammed. However, most other things in the codex sound like they are good, workable but ultimately rather fair and balanced.

Tournament comp can handle the problem in a competitive setting, and you can always refuse a game in a friendly/pickup setting. I have not really run in to the problem of friends doing too cheesy lists, but that seems easy to fix. If anything, I have to admit, my own lists are the ones who at times can be too harsh in our group.

And why does that matter? I do not know about others, but I at least always feel like a muppet when I misjudge the strength of a list and end up with a one sided game. Being on either the winning or losing side of such a game tends to be no fun. I am sure most eldar players agree there too.

On the other hand, in a tournament you sort of have to deal with it, and it is on the organiser to balance the game in one way or another, even if the wide differences in power levels make it harder.

Ratflinger wrote:
I have not had the chance to look at the codex myself, but from what I have heard, I do agree.

The jetbikes and wraithknight are brokenly good, especially when spammed. However, most other things in the codex sound like they are good, workable but ultimately rather fair and balanced.

Tournament comp can handle the problem in a competitive setting, and you can always refuse a game in a friendly/pickup setting. I have not really run in to the problem of friends doing too cheesy lists, but that seems easy to fix. If anything, I have to admit, my own lists are the ones who at times can be too harsh in our group.

And why does that matter? I do not know about others, but I at least always feel like a muppet when I misjudge the strength of a list and end up with a one sided game. Being on either the winning or losing side of such a game tends to be no fun. I am sure most eldar players agree there too.

On the other hand, in a tournament you sort of have to deal with it, and it is on the organiser to balance the game in one way or another, even if the wide differences in power levels make it harder.

Hot Deals! Pay 80$ and have a chance of reading our amazing rules to ballance them out yourself afterwards!

Meganobz vs WK. Nope. to get them into assault range you need a dedicated transport. trukks will die with 1 shot from a D weapon and hell so will battlewagonz. if you foot slog them they die in droves before they get their. If you stuffed 10 Meganobz into a Battlewagon and managed to get lucky enough to not get blown off the table on turn 1 or 2 then you could jump out and assault and maybe then they would win....heres the problem with that though. 10 meganobz and a battlewagon means you just sunk about 600pts into killing a 300pt model. And even then, the 300pt model has a fairly good chance of coming out on top.

regular nobz? same problem and only the PK's can hurt so your paying more for PK nobz then for meganobz. not a good option.

Lootaz? 15 lootas average 2 shots a turn. 30 shots = 10 hits = 4ish wounds and 1 failed save from armor/FNP. So I would need 3 full squads of lootaz, good dice rolls and it will still live until turn 3 or 4. And that of course is if nothing shoots them off the table with their squishy 6+ Armor and LD7.

Mek Gunz? KMK has a good chance of inflicting wounds but thats 30pts minimum for a single gun that can get hot and thats if you hit. of course the WK still gets its FNP. so a full battery of 5 one will get hot and 1 will scatter off completey so average 2 hits and 1 wound . So a battery of 5 for over 150pts can inflict 1 wound per turn if its statistically average.

Bikes....Good choice honestly, Lots of TL Dakka, unfortunately its only S5 So it all wounds on 6s. So a 15 bike squad has 45shots TL so 25 hits and 4 - 5 wounds 2 ish failed armor saves and if your lucky 1-2 failed FNP's bikes inflict 2 wounds a turn. of course with a range of 18 you have to get those bikers close to the WK and that means Turn 1 your not shooting but turbo boosting.

HRR broadsides statistically do more damage to Wraithknights than HYMP ones do.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Meganobz vs WK. Nope. to get them into assault range you need a dedicated transport. trukks will die with 1 shot from a D weapon and hell so will battlewagonz. if you foot slog them they die in droves before they get their. If you stuffed 10 Meganobz into a Battlewagon and managed to get lucky enough to not get blown off the table on turn 1 or 2 then you could jump out and assault and maybe then they would win....heres the problem with that though. 10 meganobz and a battlewagon means you just sunk about 600pts into killing a 300pt model. And even then, the 300pt model has a fairly good chance of coming out on top.

A Battle Wagon fulla Meganobs does sound best, and for twice the points to eliminate the WK, yeah, that works.

Units balanced in points should mutually annihilate each other. So, yeah, double-dog pile the points to utterly kill one and have yours survive. War games aren't about fair fights. It's about putting 3 drop pods fulla meltas and plasma and Stern-spam. With Vulkan or Marney. And then fully torching down your enemy's HQ under the combined fire power. Anything left, have the ChapterM finish.

 Ghazkuul wrote:
Bikes....Good choice honestly, Lots of TL Dakka, unfortunately its only S5 So it all wounds on 6s. So a 15 bike squad has 45shots TL so 25 hits and 4 - 5 wounds 2 ish failed armor saves and if your lucky 1-2 failed FNP's bikes inflict 2 wounds a turn. of course with a range of 18 you have to get those bikers close to the WK and that means Turn 1 your not shooting but turbo boosting.

... can't you equip with Claws for all?

I'm not saying either of these is a great option, Ghaz, but rage quitting before you get into a game is silly.

Best bet:
Play at tourneys, where they will likely have banned range D-weps, and LordsofWar are limited to one. I do.