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em_en_oh_pee wrote: Ick. That is just bad form. For some reason, I thought it would be a refund less what they had already received, but yea, I see the "pro-rata" now and that is something that I, provided I was someone who had participated, wouldn't tolerate. Full-refund or nothing. I wonder if this could go class-action if enough people pursued it... of course, I know jack about law stuff.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Ick. That is just bad form. For some reason, I thought it would be a refund less what they had already received, but yea, I see the "pro-rata" now and that is something that I, provided I was someone who had participated, wouldn't tolerate. Full-refund or nothing. I wonder if this could go class-action if enough people pursued it... of course, I know jack about law stuff.
It looks like this kickstarter is going to deliver on wave 2 after all. Apparently, BF had simply missed the list of completed miniatures before, and just had to have it mailed to them again.
It is possible that this delivery will turn the game's spiral around (we all love to have new minis in our hands, and in that excitement, gamers might forgive all of this nonesense).
Where is it posted that the dog ate their email... I mean they accidently missed the info that they've needed for so long? I'm curious how 2nd/3rd+ hand the info is.
We Munch for Macragge! FOR THE EMPRUH! Cheesesticks and Humus!
It looks like this kickstarter is going to deliver on wave 2 after all. Apparently, BF had simply missed the list of completed miniatures before, and just had to have it mailed to them again.
OMFG, are they fething kidding us?
All it took was a few dozen backers grabbing BF by the nuts and giving a squeeze to get a response. Going through the credit card companies makes a big difference, because those guys don't have any stake in the game. To AmEx, Visa, MC, it's just business. And whenever somebody says "it's just business", you can bet some seriously cold gak is going down. Seeing a massive pattern of chargebacks for fraud pop up, (and likely freezing BF's credit lines) yeah, that probably got BF's attention.
It seems that DS should have pushed the backers to their CC companies for chargeback disputes a lot sooner.
I hope that update is true. Not because I want the backers to get their stuff (I do...) but because the drama is so absurd I'm laughing out tears here. I want someone to make a docudrama out of this.
odinsgrandson wrote: Update:
It is possible that this delivery will turn the game's spiral around...
I wouldn't hold your breath. Unless I am mistaken, Dust Studio and BF are still parting ways, this that ends Battlefield as a viable Dust game. Warfare is dead. So really, it is Dust Studios peddling Tactics on their own.
Not sure how hot a commodity that will be in this market, given their history and attitude.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Unless I am mistaken, Dust Studio and BF are still parting ways, this that ends Battlefield as a viable Dust game. Warfare is dead.
So really, it is Dust Studios peddling Tactics on their own.
Yeah, this is an ugly divorce. DS is going to be the unemployed single mom with zero alimony, and BF is walking away.
Tactics is the board game, where you have to play on the printed tiles, right? Gotta say, I'd far rather play Dust on a 4' x 6' battlefield than a 12" tile. If Dust wants to force play on tiles, yeah, that's another nail in the coffin.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Unless I am mistaken, Dust Studio and BF are still parting ways, this that ends Battlefield as a viable Dust game. Warfare is dead.
So really, it is Dust Studios peddling Tactics on their own.
Yeah, this is an ugly divorce. DS is going to be the unemployed single mom with zero alimony, and BF is walking away.
Tactics is the board game, where you have to play on the printed tiles, right? Gotta say, I'd far rather play Dust on a 4' x 6' battlefield than a 12" tile. If Dust wants to force play on tiles, yeah, that's another nail in the coffin.
Sadly, DS/BF split should kill Battlefield and as said, Warfare was killed by DS and BF after the switch from FFG. So yea, you are basically stuck playing unsupported games or Tactics. Not that people won't keep the other games alive somewhat, but it isn't going to have the heft behind it a properly supported game would have.
Such a shame, too, because Warfare was a brilliant game.
I think BF did a great job rewriting the rules. They get you in with the boardgame, then it's fairly simple to go to a regular Wargame with some additional rules once you have the basics (Tactics). I thought it was a great system (I've played just about everything) and it was working to get some of our friends that only Board Game into playing some Tabletop stuff.
"Orkses never lost a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!"
I dig how in a setting where giant, muscled fungus men ride Mad Max cars and use their own teeth as currency, the concept of little engineering dudes with beards was considered a step too far down the aisle of silliness.
Such a shame, too, because Warfare was a brilliant game.
Warfare suffers serious game balance issues due to it's core mechanics. It's OK if you stick to the middle of the road in stats, but as get farther from the center the balance issues manifest themselves in serious ways. Due to the cover mechanics used you had mathematical impossibilities where models were doomed if the attacker made just average numbers of hits. The artificially imposed force organization charts and lack of selection thereof made for rigid, similar appearing lists for the various Factions. An antiquated "You-Go, I-Go" turn structure appeals primarily to the 40K crowd. Yes, it's just that brilliant.
Battlefield is supremely more balanced on every level and allows flexible force composition, true alternating activations and easy conversion from tile based Tactics play to full on 4x6 tabletop 3D play. Whatever emerges from the ashes of the Battlefront debacle, it will be better than Warfare.
Such a shame, too, because Warfare was a brilliant game.
Warfare suffers serious game balance issues due to it's core mechanics. It's OK if you stick to the middle of the road in stats, but as get farther from the center the balance issues manifest themselves in serious ways. Due to the cover mechanics used you had mathematical impossibilities where models were doomed if the attacker made just average numbers of hits. The artificially imposed force organization charts and lack of selection thereof made for rigid, similar appearing lists for the various Factions. An antiquated "You-Go, I-Go" turn structure appeals primarily to the 40K crowd. Yes, it's just that brilliant.
Battlefield is supremely more balanced on every level and allows flexible force composition, true alternating activations and easy conversion from tile based Tactics play to full on 4x6 tabletop 3D play. Whatever emerges from the ashes of the Battlefront debacle, it will be better than Warfare.
You have to understand and respect what FFG did though. The core rules were fantastic and a true 2nd Edition would have fixed many of the glaring issues that their team was well aware of by the time Paolo took Dust from them. In fact, an FAQ was set to be released that fixed a lot of stuff, but this didn't materialize due to the switch. I don't mind the "antiquated" You-Go-I-Go thing, because the rest of the rules were so good. But yea, the way the FOC was handled needed work, but I enjoyed their attempts to keep folding in new units with so little info coming from Dust Studio. I saw a lot of promise coming down the road from FFG, but that is sadly no more. Possibly the biggest mistake Paolo made for his franchise, imo.
Also, you are making a gross assumption that anything will rise from these ashes. As I said, I figure it will just be fan-supported attempts and Dust Tactics V3 that survive.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: Ick. That is just bad form. For some reason, I thought it would be a refund less what they had already received, but yea, I see the "pro-rata" now and that is something that I, provided I was someone who had participated, wouldn't tolerate. Full-refund or nothing. I wonder if this could go class-action if enough people pursued it... of course, I know jack about law stuff.
Fair enough, but who would you sue?
Everyone?
The only problem is that "donating" to a Kickstarter is no different from buying stock or any other form of investment.
You have little recourse to recoup your losses if the Kickstarter does not work.
This is not to say that people cannot try to do so (companies and corporations are sued by investors or stockholders all the time for loss of value). The problem is that with a Kickstarter there is not a lot that can be claimed in a suit that the company could not protect with some sort of bankruptcy or similar action.
And, without seeing the email exachanges between the two parties, a lawsuit could wind up being a waste of time.
Eilif wrote: Didn't Paolo say somewhere that Warfare was being handed to someone trusted to develop it? Or was that Battlefield?
Would have to be Warfare. I think the ownership of Battlefield is a major untouched sticking point in the DS/BF breakup. BF feels they have rights to it and while DS may not want to support it directly, I cannot see anyone other than a garage club taking on the Battlefield system without BF's blessing.
It looks like this kickstarter is going to deliver on wave 2 after all. Apparently, BF had simply missed the list of completed miniatures before, and just had to have it mailed to them again.
It is possible that this delivery will turn the game's spiral around (we all love to have new minis in our hands, and in that excitement, gamers might forgive all of this nonesense).
But we'll have to wait and see.
I still honestly don't care for either side, but I wanted to counter some FUD put out by this poster.
I'd like to point out that nowhere, anywhere is any confirmed info that BF "simply missed" the list of produced miniatures.
Moreover, the last info from Dust (not a reliable source by any means, and neither is BF) was this:
Ghrik wrote: Just received this email from DS. Perhaps both parties start behaving like grownups again...
Dear Backer,
We received an email from Battlefront yesterday: they said they would check the production list and issue a purchase order Monday.
[...]
Sincerely,
Dust Studio Team
Which only says that Battlefront now has a production list from which to issue a purchase order. This means there's now a proper paper trail, and that stuff is beginning to be worked out.
Nowhere does it say that BF has had this production list from the beginning. Especially since BF has been adamant in saying that it was one of the things it's been waiting for. Essentially they were waiting on more paperwork which could be used for legal purposes. Although honestly there's no concrete public info, so it's up to who you subjectively believe, rather than who is actually right or wrong.
To me, it seems Dust Studio avoids mentioning when exactly it sent the production list, and indeed, my own conjecture is that they finally sent it recently in response to BF's thorough rebuttal of Dust Studio's claims.
But, less maliciously, it may also be differences in business style that caused this issue as well. It may have been that the Chinese factory that actually owns Dust Studio was simply used to just telling people that it had produced everything and expected payment in full. Whereas BF, a NZ business expected a lot more concrete info. Then again, when you're dealing with hundreds of thousands of dollars, you kind of always want a paper trail.
A message from Dust Studio William Yau
BF gave us a list for wave 2 on Nov 2014 without any payment, even though we had asked many times but no money was paid for wave 2. We don’t want to hold the production and make backers waiting forever, we decided to go ahead and produced them anyway. But with limited resources, the production takes more time. We could have done it on Feb if we were paid. Anyway, the production was done now.
BF asked for the list of production and I sent John-Paul the CEO and Peter the owner the list repeatedly on
10 Nov 2014
17 Dec 2014
8 Apr 2015
We had email back and forth with the same email subject so they should not miss the list. Anyway, since they asked for it, I sent the list just now again. The list is exactly the same as they provided us on Nov, so I think both parties is well aware that we are talking about the same qty.
Let’s see if this is true now. “Just to say once more, the options above can be fully avoided if Dust Studio would just give us an itemised list of what has been made so we can pay them and collect the goods!”
"Orkses never lost a battle. If we win we win, if we die we die fighting so it don't count. If we runs for it we don't die neither, cos we can come back for annuver go, see!"
I dig how in a setting where giant, muscled fungus men ride Mad Max cars and use their own teeth as currency, the concept of little engineering dudes with beards was considered a step too far down the aisle of silliness.
A message from Dust Studio William Yau
BF gave us a list for wave 2 on Nov 2014 without any payment, even though we had asked many times but no money was paid for wave 2. We don’t want to hold the production and make backers waiting forever, we decided to go ahead and produced them anyway. But with limited resources, the production takes more time. We could have done it on Feb if we were paid. Anyway, the production was done now.
BF asked for the list of production and I sent John-Paul the CEO and Peter the owner the list repeatedly on
10 Nov 2014
17 Dec 2014
8 Apr 2015
We had email back and forth with the same email subject so they should not miss the list. Anyway, since they asked for it, I sent the list just now again. The list is exactly the same as they provided us on Nov, so I think both parties is well aware that we are talking about the same qty.
Let’s see if this is true now. “Just to say once more, the options above can be fully avoided if Dust Studio would just give us an itemised list of what has been made so we can pay them and collect the goods!”
That timeline doesn't work out. Yau is claiming to have sent the list of actual produced goods before starting to actually produce goods. What Yau is saying he sent has to be an invoice. What Battlefront wanted was an inventory.
A message from Dust Studio William Yau
BF gave us a list for wave 2 on Nov 2014 without any payment, even though we had asked many times but no money was paid for wave 2. We don’t want to hold the production and make backers waiting forever, we decided to go ahead and produced them anyway. But with limited resources, the production takes more time. We could have done it on Feb if we were paid. Anyway, the production was done now.
BF asked for the list of production and I sent John-Paul the CEO and Peter the owner the list repeatedly on
10 Nov 2014
17 Dec 2014
8 Apr 2015
We had email back and forth with the same email subject so they should not miss the list. Anyway, since they asked for it, I sent the list just now again. The list is exactly the same as they provided us on Nov, so I think both parties is well aware that we are talking about the same qty.
Let’s see if this is true now. “Just to say once more, the options above can be fully avoided if Dust Studio would just give us an itemised list of what has been made so we can pay them and collect the goods!”
That timeline doesn't work out. Yau is claiming to have sent the list of actual produced goods before starting to actually produce goods. What Yau is saying he sent has to be an invoice. What Battlefront wanted was an inventory.
yep, if this doesn't show that Dust studios is being shady and trying to come out clean.. I don't know what to say. As a person who loved Duat, as soon as I saw the fantasy flight break up, I knew there was going to be more trouble. Now this is silly and any other dust fans should be insulted. They are bold enough to say here is the list when it's not the list. It's just a invoice(crappy one at that) and does back down to the heart of the issue around freebies. I would just stay far away from them.
Also if you look at their Facebook, so many people are posting pictures of warfare the game on terrain and they don't even want to support it. They love to cut their nose off and shoot themselves in the foot.
Eilif wrote: Didn't Paolo say somewhere that Warfare was being handed to someone trusted to develop it? Or was that Battlefield?
They gave it to a fan to work on. That is it. It isn't in the hands of Battlefront or Dust Studio and I highly, highly doubt it will ever see real support beyond some pdf releases to try to pretend it didn't die when it went from FFG to BF.
It did though, because BF fundamentally didn't understand (or care) about Warfare. Very sad.
Crimson Devil wrote: I thought it was Paolo's hate and that some of the rights are still owned by FFG that was responsible for killing it?
I was very into the game at the point of the switch-over and their absolute silence on all things Warfare undercut its growth immensely. Then, they did the "Open Beta" of Achilles, which was a farce. They basically copy-pasted units from Tactics and did little to fix those issues, despite a great FFG playtest prior that they scrapped for zero reason. Anyhow, they spent all their time focused on Battlefield and Tactics, so Warfare got to be even more of a red-headed stepchild than it already was.
Paolo's dislike of it made it worse. Also, from what I recall FFG signed off on it entirely (at least, that is what they said, I believe). The only legal stuff from FFG was not doing anything to diminish their existing Dust stock value, such as re-releasing repacked versions of their existing product, which isn't unreasonable at all.
Crimson Devil wrote: I thought it was Paolo's hate and that some of the rights are still owned by FFG that was responsible for killing it?
I was very into the game at the point of the switch-over and their absolute silence on all things Warfare undercut its growth immensely. Then, they did the "Open Beta" of Achilles, which was a farce. They basically copy-pasted units from Tactics and did little to fix those issues, despite a great FFG playtest prior that they scrapped for zero reason. Anyhow, they spent all their time focused on Battlefield and Tactics, so Warfare got to be even more of a red-headed stepchild than it already was.
Paolo's dislike of it made it worse. Also, from what I recall FFG signed off on it entirely (at least, that is what they said, I believe). The only legal stuff from FFG was not doing anything to diminish their existing Dust stock value, such as re-releasing repacked versions of their existing product, which isn't unreasonable at all.
And the fact only FFG could sell a starter box.
Peter: As we all know, Christmas is that mystical time of year when the ghost of Jesus rises from the grave to feast on the flesh of the living! So we all sing Christmas Carols to lull him back to sleep.
Bob: Outrageous, How dare he say such blasphemy. I've got to do something.
Man #1: Bob, there's nothing you can do.
Bob: Well, I guess I'll just have to develop a sense of humor.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: . The only legal stuff from FFG was not doing anything to diminish their existing Dust stock value, such as re-releasing repacked versions of their existing product, which isn't unreasonable at all.
Not unreasonable, but if -as BF says- they weren't informed of this, that's a pretty big failure of disclosure.
Noir wrote: And the fact only FFG could sell a starter box.
There was no Warfare or Battlefield start boxes at first. They did eventually release army boxes. Not sure if it was a legal thing or not that they could not make Warfare or Battlefield starters or not. Not a lawyer.
em_en_oh_pee wrote: . The only legal stuff from FFG was not doing anything to diminish their existing Dust stock value, such as re-releasing repacked versions of their existing product, which isn't unreasonable at all.
Not unreasonable, but if -as BF says- they weren't informed of this, that's a pretty big failure of disclosure.
A failure to disclose from Dust Studio, yes. I think I will always lament the move from FFG and this goof really shows the switch-up to BF was doomed from the outset, if that claim is true.
MetalOxide wrote: Dust is a pretty decent game, and the minis are awesome. I'd hate to see it die. I'm sure that in the right hands it could do well.
Who would take it on now? Three distributors later and I can't imagine any serious company would want to work with the drama queen Paolo and Dust Studios.
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