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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The problem with your final sentiment is that if you had instead spent 1000 points on gaunts, the grav would be almost entirely wasted. So the Marine players have a dilemma: To grav or not to grav?

Sadly, the way their armies are laid out, they usually pick grav. So punish them for it and take 1000 points of 6+ saves!

And that's the meta in a nutshell, which focuses on heavily armored mega-units that make Grav and WKs efficient.

If the meta were more like the stories with massive hordes of Boyz, Gaunts, Cultists and Guardsmen, then Blast and WKs would kinda suck.

 Cytharai wrote:

The problem with your final sentiment is that if you had instead spent 1000 points on gaunts, the grav would be almost entirely wasted. So the Marine players have a dilemma: To grav or not to grav?

Sadly, the way their armies are laid out, they usually pick grav. So punish them for it and take 1000 points of 6+ saves!

Haha right? I need to figure out a way to move that many gaunts within the time constraints of tournament play

Fantasy's been doing it for ages, use movement trays!

All armies possess enough small arms fire that hordes of T3 5/6+ save models are going to be wiped from the board without doing anything. Those hordes of models lack the firepower or abilities to meaningfully effect the game.

Grab cents not only possess grav weapons (which still kill a lot with rerolls to wound) but also bolters. I wouldn't be surprised to see a 4-model grav star put down 15-20 gaunts per turn. A wraithknight will happily be immune to their damage while stomping 10+ per turn as well.
Things like scatter bikes and broadsides are standard fare which excel at taking down vehicles and hordes alike.
At that rate of casualties, the physical size of the horde becomes a problem: units are getting in each others way so you can't charge in 200 models at once, but every round of shooting you lose 6" of ground.

Unfortunately you can't go counter-meta with a horde of basic infantry because the meta excels at killing hordes as well as taking out high priority targets.


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 Cytharai wrote:

 KharnsRightHand wrote:

 Cytharai wrote:

As a jump gargantuan monstrous creature the Wraithknight doesn't get slowed by terrain and auto-passes terrain checks.

To my knowledge, gargantuans only have move through cover, and jump doesn't mean you get to bypass having to make your terrain move distance roll. You can jump over terrain, but if you start in it you're still rolling for distance. Our local FAQ rules that GMC roll three dice, double the highest for their move through cover distance.

Jump units have to make dangerous terrain checks if they start/end in terrain. If they still had to make a roll for their move distance, that would be absolutely stupid. I don't have access to my rulebook at the moment, but I am 99% sure jump units aren't slowed by terrain, they just make dangerous checks. It's in that movement table near the index.

Right. Jump units not using their jump packs roll 2d6-2 for their difficult terrain roll. You can use a jump pack to move 12 in the move phase, OR re-roll charge distance in the assault phase, not both. So what I had said before, was that I would be having to make distance rolls coming out of terrain if I wanted to charge something, assuming I wanted to keep the re-roll for charge distance.

Yes, but as Monstrous Creatures with Move Through Cover, Wraithknights aren't slowed by charging through terrain. Plus the MAXIMUM charge range of 6" +2D6 re-rolled is less than the average charge range of 12"+2D6 normal, and the AVERAGE charge range of 6"+2D6rr is less than the minimum charge range of 12"+2D6, so you're always better off using your jump packs in movement for the Wraithknight.
Ie, The wraithknight can safely hug ruins/craters all game and get a 4+/5+ cover save, meaning that the dual D weapons are nearly always the superior option.

Trasvi wrote:
Yes, but as Monstrous Creatures with Move Through Cover, Wraithknights aren't slowed by charging through terrain. Plus the MAXIMUM charge range of 6" +2D6 re-rolled is less than the average charge range of 12"+2D6 normal, and the AVERAGE charge range of 6"+2D6rr is less than the minimum charge range of 12"+2D6, so you're always better off using your jump packs in movement for the Wraithknight.
Ie, The wraithknight can safely hug ruins/craters all game and get a 4+/5+ cover save, meaning that the dual D weapons are nearly always the superior option.

Maximum charge distance of 6" + 2D6... where is that coming from? Gargantuans charge just like MCs, 2D6. Since there is no book rule for Gargantuans moving through cover, we use 3D6, double the highest roll, so you will reliably be moving 8-12" even with the roll. There's nothing the WK has as a Gargantuan or Jump unit that lets it get longer charge distance, or re-roll charges besides using the jump pack. I would rather save the jump pack for that, so snake eyes don't ruin a 3" charge for me, but I guess YMMV.

And yeah, playing gaunts was a joke. Obviously horde armies don't work in the current meta. The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Gladius Strike Force, and that works because you get a bunch of free transports to ride in. Movement trays for about 4 square feet of gaunts just doesn't work.

Double the highest? No, you just discard the lowest and add the other two together.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Double the highest? No, you just discard the lowest and add the other two together.

Doubling the highest result is GW's errata for Super Heavy Walkers, but for whatever reason they did not also clarify Gargantuan MC's to work this way.

Pan Fo Desolators

Centurions in a drop pod....that's two units. The drop pod removes one of the major disadvantages of the centurions.

Median Trace wrote:
Centurions in a drop pod....that's two units. The drop pod removes one of the major disadvantages of the centurions.

Whats the points cost on the optimal load out for that?

Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

You could charge them...

 vipoid wrote:

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

You could charge them...

Oh yeah, the Wraithknight will be SO afraid of Instant Death...oh wait.
BUT the Lord will strike at I5...oh wait.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

Sorry buddy. you just lost all credibility.

Wraithknight... rubbish... lol

scatter bikes will slaughter that unit of cultists. Stomp attacks will whip out hordes of things and one attacking getting through will kill lord.

 Chaos Spawn wrote:
Wraithknight is rubbish because each shot is only aloud to target one model. I could hide Chaos Lord with Murder Sword amongst 35 cultists and you couldn't do anything.

You're right, I can only kill 2 models, which can total up to 2000 points, that really sucks, there is no way anyone would ever bring something with the *potential* to kill 6x it's cost in one round of shooting.

Granted killing 2k worth of models requires an insane ammount of luck, but when your argument is that killing 2 models is useless then I'd gladly play a game where you start with 2k less, because it's not important.

WK threat range from 6 - 2000 points killed per turn, assuming it kills 2 models.

Breaking this down further, list of 2 models likely to be killed.

2 cultists, for some reason you shot at cultists, <20 points killed.
2 marines again, for some reason <40 points
2 scatter bikes <50
2 grav cents <100 Now we're getting into value territory, you make your points back in 3 turns.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Below this line is where the wraithknight is profitable, (assuming it couldn't move or charge, and was just a stationary gun platform)

2 razorbacks (assuming they survive any nearby scatterbikes) <110
2 ghost arks <210 , you make back your points in 2 turns, and kill the only thing scatter bikes cant hurt on the field
2 monoliths <400 points. 1 turn
2 land raiders <470
2 Imperial knights <800 , Yes you are right , there is absolutely no reason ever to kill 2 models, ever.
2 Tesseract vaults <1100
2 heirophants <2000 points, technically possible.

Saying "you can only kill 2 models" is absurd (it also has scatter lasers) , there are very few armies that don't have 2 models worth D-ing off the table.
Gladius? see razorbacks, assuming your bikes cant remove the AV11, you can write 1-2 off each turn.
Decurion? crack open the AV 13 ghost arks.
Eldar? kill the other WK
Imperial knights? obvious

Hordes? stomp everything

Realistically people have to commit more than 300 points to killing a wraithknight, unless they are running specific counters (grav usually)
Take necrons, there are 2 things to kill a wraithknight, Destroyer cult / deathmarks, If they are not in your list, you will have to spend well above 300 points of firepower to kill it.

In a vacuum the WK is very powerful, and cheap for it's power.
In an army, it fixes the shortcomings of units like scatter bikes, solving AV 13 spam.

Fortunately other armies can also combo things , like deathstars, and formation combos to perform on equal footing, that still doesnt make the wraithknight bad.

harkequin wrote:

Fortunately other armies can also combo things , like deathstars, and formation combos to perform on equal footing

I'd argue that a lot of armies can't do this.

 vipoid wrote:

harkequin wrote:

Fortunately other armies can also combo things , like deathstars, and formation combos to perform on equal footing

I'd argue that a lot of armies can't do this.

Absolutely right, but those armies aren't usually the ones we see at the top of the scoreboards.

I was just handwaving the "other armies win tournaments therefore eldar aren't strong" argument.

I play necrons,I lose to draigo stars, Adamantium lances , deamons etc.
If we both build competitive lists it's pretty even because these armies have lists that circumvent their weaknesses, and use specific tactics to win.
If we play fluffy, necrns tend to destroy due to their innate power, and the fact that otherwise competitive armies, require specific thought out tactical builds to win.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
He can't just "easily" summon them. He requires even more Warp Charges, which adds onto his cost when you need to buy more units to contribute.

Wraithknight wins. The Wraithknight is the most disgusting thing to happen in game balance ever.

Nope....

2++ grot banner waver, most op thing ever!!!!!'''''