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Put in a dollar so I'll get the update emails. Otherwise mainly waiting for an upgrade kit. I already have four teams I hardly ever use anyway.

 Polonius wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Has Mantic released any game without a KS in the last couple of years?

(not sarcastic, genuine curiosity)

The very early editions of KoW and Warpath were created in house, but were never printed. The original batch of plastics (Elves, Dwarves, Undead, Orx, and Forge Fathers) were all produced with their own capital, as were the metals that went with them.

Since then, they've mostly released things that had been Kickstarted, but earlier in 2016 they did release some KoW models that they funded. Things like the Ogre Hunters, the Goblin Biggit, and Undead Wights. Now they're also releasing Kingdoms of Dust.

But as for a game? Nope.

Project Pandora and Dwarf King's Hold (and its two expansions) were self-funded. But they were also very low quality with black and white, staple-bound rulebooks, thin card and re-used KoW/ Warpath minis.

Kickstarter isn't required to release product, but it is required to make a quality product.

They're really getting there with model quality now, the switch to Dust Tactics plastic is the best move they've done in a while, now they just need to phase out metal for new releases wherever possible.

Dwarf King's Hold (3 versions) and Project Pandora were boardgames released pre-Kickstarter. They were low budget efforts to put it mildly, reminiscent of the original GW lost patrol - recycle existing plastics, add minimal cardboard, handful of D6s and a rules booklet.

Kickstarter has certainly enabled/encouraged them to take greater risks on launching bigger products more regularly, that's for sure. Good thing or bad thing, that's more down to personal opinion!

 scarletsquig wrote:

Kickstarter isn't required to release product, but it is required to make a quality product.

And yet I own many, many quality products which were never crowd funded in any way.

Unless you meant Mantic cannot release quality products without KS. Even then, I suspect they could if they changed their business model a bit. At this point it would be nice to see them mature and evolve as a company and get rid of the KS crutch they lean on so heavily.

Thebiggesthat wrote:
Retailer pledge at a decent price, step in the right direction. Not that any retailer will be able to sell when all people interested have already got the KS.

to be fair, Dreadball 1 core game went thru... 8? additional printings after KS release.


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Azure Forest was a non-KS release right? I bought that in a store.

Yeah azure forest was a store release. This is the thing though. With the new cars, isn't Azure Forest now redundant?
I'm really annoyed that my Acrylic Ultimate pitch is now redundant too.

Oh yeah, Project Pandora was actually a really fun game, from the couple of games I played. A bit dodgy, quality wise, to be sure.

 CptJake wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:

Kickstarter isn't required to release product, but it is required to make a quality product.

And yet I own many, many quality products which were never crowd funded in any way.

Unless you meant Mantic cannot release quality products without KS. Even then, I suspect they could if they changed their business model a bit. At this point it would be nice to see them mature and evolve as a company and get rid of the KS crutch they lean on so heavily.

Sorry, but it's been well covered in several threads that KS can be an incredibly sensible choice for a company, even if it's a choice rather than a necessity. It smooths the spike in cashflow needed to develop a new product, it carries less obligation and is potentially cheaper than a conventional loan, doesn't require the loss of equity that outside investment would likely require and it appears on a site that acts as a pretty decent marketing platform.

There's nothing immature about using KS, nor is it a crutch, it's an incredibly attractive way for a company to expand and grow using other people's money, which is something you should always do if you can.

It removes a bunch of risk too for established companies. - For example by avoiding a "Dreadfleet" scale incident that GW had. Or worse, The Hobbit...
Something like that would probably have sunk Mantic a few years ago... So even if (well, when) Cryptozooic torpedo Mantic's Walking Dead game popularity wise, their not going to have lost significant sums, proportionally speaking.

My problem with companies using kickstarter is when they use it as a way to leverage fan interest to be able to make a risk free product. A fairly large company like PP kickstarting a frigging board game was little more than a long range pre-order. Large companies can certainly use Kickstarter to finance capital spending in a way that's good for them, the consumer, retailers, and the hobby market as a whole: look at the Reaper Bones kickstarters. Customers got a good (but not ludicrous) deal, reaper dramatically expanded it's bones line, and Retailers are still able to sell the products at MSRP.

Dreadball, probably more than any other Mantic Product, is really saturated in the market. That implies that there isn't a growing demand. I think that going back to the Kickstarter well does indicate that Mantic isn't ready to start relying on the traditional distributor to FLGS channels to grow it's products. And that's fine, but I think it's going to depress the zest for the game when it emerges.

OTOH, they've already sold out of early birds, and are bringing in a ton of money, so it's clearly a model that works for them.

I think we shouldn't ignore the fact that there's a lot of times when the lump-sum up-front influx of customers' money -10% Kickstarter fees is just going to be more risk-free than a short- or long-term bank loan to fund a project. If you need extra cash to start the next major project, a method that doesn't require collateral, has no risk of foreclosure on said collateral, *and* inherently gives some form of customer interest gauge is going to be attractive to small companies.

Not to mention the other possible advantage: While many of us fall into the habit of viewing Kickstarter as a wargaming mass pre-order tool, it is technically still a project investment platform. While we've grown accustomed to receiving product as a return on investment, if the project fails for some reason, the company isn't really on the hook for the money - the risk is inherent to the investment. That's not going to be the case for a bank loan. For a small (or even large, by wargaming terms) company that *can* self fund a project, that's going to be more attractive than risking your own operating capital.

There's lots of reasons to use Kickstarter. It's just unfortunate that the current "It's my favorite way to pre-order wargames at a discount!" mindset is hurting the retailers.

How many products that were kickstarted have been really successful at retail? Reaper Bones comes to mind, as does KOW second edition (rules, not minis), but I don't know enough to really track this stuff.

With regard to retailers, I think they have plenty of stuff to stock. Especially with Guild Ball as a success, I don't see Dreadball really competing for shelf space even if it wasn't kickstarted.

But I also vote with my wallet. When you start looking at year plus fulfillment dates, the discount had better be amazing for me to take the risk on the final quality. it's why I didn't drop $200 on a GCPS army. I'd rather pay more later if I really like the models, than have the money tied up forever while not knowing if you'll get ForgeFather quality, or Basillian Man at Arms quality.

Zombicide everything has been very successful at retail. I'm not sure how "successful" it has been, but I've seen Secret Weapon's tablescape tiles at a few different stores.

New concept art and WIPs




Unposed Robot Striker WIP



Yndij Striker WIP

It's my understanding that Mantic haven't sold less than 4x the number of units to retail of any Kickstarter versus the number of units they sold in the KS (not including DBX because I don't know about that).

 Azazelx wrote:
Zombicide everything has been very successful at retail. I'm not sure how "successful" it has been, but I've seen Secret Weapon's tablescape tiles at a few different stores.

Good call on both of those. I never followed Zombiecide, but I know that the Tablescapes KS was the ultimate "true believer" kickstarter. Several years of lead time, and only the early birds got a discount off of retail.

Has Mantic given any indication they may offer an 'upgrade pack' to 1st Edition owners?

 CptJake wrote:
Has Mantic given any indication they may offer an 'upgrade pack' to 1st Edition owners?

"If we get enough demand for it" was the comment in the KS IIRC.

 Baragash wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Has Mantic given any indication they may offer an 'upgrade pack' to 1st Edition owners?

"If we get enough demand for it" was the comment in the KS IIRC.

Thanks. I haven't even looked at the comments and appreciate the info.


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And have added a comment, hoping to demonstrate demand.

 CptJake wrote:

 Baragash wrote:

 CptJake wrote:
Has Mantic given any indication they may offer an 'upgrade pack' to 1st Edition owners?

"If we get enough demand for it" was the comment in the KS IIRC.

Thanks. I haven't even looked at the comments and appreciate the info.


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And have added a comment, hoping to demonstrate demand.

Heh, and I was about to say they upgraded it to "we are very actively looking at introducing one" but I guess you know that now

I feel like there a logical flaw there though. How do they see demand if people arent pledging for the kickstarter because it isn't there...

Today's data will be quite telling. The add ons aren't really doing anything for this so far and I don't see them giving much of a bump.

The EBs went quick enough but it's struggled to add backers after that. I think Mantic have misjudged this one, most people have what they need miniature wise and just want the updated rules, they aren't looking for a boxed game again.

The lack of 3D renders, lack of solid information on the actual rules updates and poor KS video highlights that this wasn't well planned in advance.

Still time to right this, wait and see how it pans out.

regarding the upgrade pledge I think it will be more expensive than people are willing to pay right now

Mantic - 23rd July - we're looking at it an option. The components will definitely be available separately at retail, but if there's a lot of demand for a smaller pledge with 'just' the bits you need, then we'll look at doing it. What it will do is enforce the value of the main pledge.

No, what it will do is encourage a lot of people to not pledge at all.

The 'value' of the main pledge is only good if I want it.

In the end, I'm willing to upgrade, not really willing to buy a Striker pledge.

Hypothetically, an upgrade pledge, would encourage more backers to that, thereby increasing the total, thereby unlocking more stretch goals to improve the main striker pledge... Which may tempt people to increase their upgrade pledge to the main pledge.

One would think Mantic know how to play this game by now.

Baffling that an upgrade pledge wasn't available from the start.

Compel's right on the money though- start with a reasonably priced upgrade pledge, and sweeten the package pledge so that people make the inevitable jump to the higher priced tier.

Enough new teams and goodies people will make the bump. They always do when there is the lure of fresh new plastic to play with!

Is it possible that they want to save "upgrade" sales for retail?

 Polonius wrote:
Is it possible that they want to save "upgrade" sales for retail?

Doesn't seem like they're too concerned with retail, seeing as they're offering their entire back catalogue here. I'm sure all the LGS owners with dust-covered Dreadball stock in their bargain bins appreciate today's add-ons.

I'm not surprised this is going nowhere. No upgrade pledge, most people interested probably already have all the minis they want from before and imho the game works fine as it is. Not to mention their handling of DBX probably left a lot of people with a bad taste in their mouth.

Guild Ball taking off is also not a great sign for Dreadball as a franchise.

 Polonius wrote:
Is it possible that they want to save "upgrade" sales for retail?

Oh you