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That's...too bad. Friends still in college are going to be here for winter break, sounds like we won't get the scheduled new RPG time.

I'd still rather good and late than bad and on time, but I'd actually rather good and on time, and a little more communication would be nice...

Everyone can expect March at the "earliest." New Backer's Only Update went out. I'm quoting the part that everyone might care about (as everything else is playtest files)

Production Update: We expect testing to be completed within the next 4 weeks, after which we'll be creating the print materials and sending the books to production. That means a late first quarter 2014 release. We appreciate everyone's patience and help making this game the best possible. We'll keep you updated as production moves along.

So... a 2013Q3 delivery date has just become 2014Q1, possibly Q2... *sigh*

Well, 6 months delay is actually around what I've come to expect for anything above 5 digits, now.

Not the worst, but not awesome.

I feel like Wyrd delivers really well when they do, but they don't necessarily do it on time or with much communication.

I'm not happy about a 4.5 month delay (6 months total), but I'll remain cautiously optimistic they can have it out by March. If testing really is ending in mid December, that's 3 1/2 months to finish up, edit, finalize layout and get it to the printers.

Given some of the requests made and information released on the backer forms (what we've been reading/testing, for example) I'm not surprised it's close to being 'done'. I'm guessing that production slows to a crawl around the holidays like most other things, but given the rapid turn around on M2E's book for Gencon, it's not impossible for them to fire it off for production and have giant stacks of them laying around a month later.

 Forar wrote:
I'm not happy about a 4.5 month delay (6 months total), but I'll remain cautiously optimistic they can have it out by March. If testing really is ending in mid December, that's 3 1/2 months to finish up, edit, finalize layout and get it to the printers.

Given some of the requests made and information released on the backer forms (what we've been reading/testing, for example) I'm not surprised it's close to being 'done'. I'm guessing that production slows to a crawl around the holidays like most other things, but given the rapid turn around on M2E's book for Gencon, it's not impossible for them to fire it off for production and have giant stacks of them laying around a month later.

Kickstarters are notorious for that. I've seen very few that deliver on time. But in general, I've been pleased with the results once they come in.

 Valhallan42nd wrote:

 Forar wrote:
I'm not happy about a 4.5 month delay (6 months total), but I'll remain cautiously optimistic they can have it out by March. If testing really is ending in mid December, that's 3 1/2 months to finish up, edit, finalize layout and get it to the printers.

Given some of the requests made and information released on the backer forms (what we've been reading/testing, for example) I'm not surprised it's close to being 'done'. I'm guessing that production slows to a crawl around the holidays like most other things, but given the rapid turn around on M2E's book for Gencon, it's not impossible for them to fire it off for production and have giant stacks of them laying around a month later.

Kickstarters are notorious for that. I've seen very few that deliver on time. But in general, I've been pleased with the results once they come in.

They are indeed notorious for that, but Wyrd is one of the only companies I've seen that have done a kickstarter, delayed it by 3 months, and then not learned from their prior mistakes. Mantic has gone with the waves of shipping to get the base product out on time with some of the extras and then get the other stuff out a few months after. CMoN has gotten things out in a timely manner with the exception of Relic Knights, though we'll see how Wrath of Kings works out. Does anyone know how Jetpack Unicorn was taken care of? Their backers got that dumb game on time right?

I expect an RPG would have a way higher amount of work go into it than a board/card game, and they may not have compensated properly. Well, obviously they didn't, but I expect that's a lot of it. Well, and their decision to revamp Malifaux during the same period.

And yeah, thought jetpack unicorn looked pretty terrible- I really would like to like their little games, because I'm really getting into little one-shots, but I can't stand their style.

Puppet wars had nice illustration but not great minis or rules, then I felt pretty burned by the re-release having no print only option after dumping $200 or w/e into that game and receiving none of the support/expansions promised after the launch. Things have gone downhill from there...

 spiralingcadaver wrote:
Puppet wars had nice illustration but not great minis or rules, then I felt pretty burned by the re-release having no print only option after dumping $200 or w/e into that game and receiving none of the support/expansions promised after the launch. Things have gone downhill from there...

That has pretty much been my experience with them in 2013. Nothing they released really caught my attention, not even the long awaited aHoffman, and then with the changes to Malifaux not sitting well with me, I haven't touched a Wyrd product in months. Shame really considering they were like my "you have to check these guys out" company for a year+

 Alfndrate wrote:

 Valhallan42nd wrote:

 Forar wrote:
I'm not happy about a 4.5 month delay (6 months total), but I'll remain cautiously optimistic they can have it out by March. If testing really is ending in mid December, that's 3 1/2 months to finish up, edit, finalize layout and get it to the printers.

Given some of the requests made and information released on the backer forms (what we've been reading/testing, for example) I'm not surprised it's close to being 'done'. I'm guessing that production slows to a crawl around the holidays like most other things, but given the rapid turn around on M2E's book for Gencon, it's not impossible for them to fire it off for production and have giant stacks of them laying around a month later.

Kickstarters are notorious for that. I've seen very few that deliver on time. But in general, I've been pleased with the results once they come in.

They are indeed notorious for that, but Wyrd is one of the only companies I've seen that have done a kickstarter, delayed it by 3 months, and then not learned from their prior mistakes. Mantic has gone with the waves of shipping to get the base product out on time with some of the extras and then get the other stuff out a few months after. CMoN has gotten things out in a timely manner with the exception of Relic Knights, though we'll see how Wrath of Kings works out. Does anyone know how Jetpack Unicorn was taken care of? Their backers got that dumb game on time right?

Jetpack Unicorn, IIRC, was also a game mostly completed when it was brought to Wyrd by a third party.

As for the Gencon/M2E/TTB issue, it's obvious that they hoped to get all both products out, but realized when it came down to crunch time that only one would be finished. They made a hard call, and put all their resources into something that could be finished in time. I can't fault them for that.

They're a small business. They don't have the resources of GW to get a third party to complete ther work for them, or to have someone has a social media person. Yes, it sucks being on this end, but at least we get to preview the game, and have a role in its creation via the Beta. I get to test drive the entire rules set prior to it being released to the world. That's fairly good communication in my book.

 Valhallan42nd wrote:
Kickstarters are notorious for that. I've seen very few that deliver on time.

That doesn't excuse overloading ones plate, and given that they knew M2E was going to go live this year and most of the backers didn't, it's not our fault they had to prioritize at all.

They could have put TtB off another year until M2E was mostly settled, but they chose to do both at once, so no, I can't cut them much slack for how difficult it must be to attend to both lines, plus whatever Jetpack Unicorn asks of them, and Evil Baby Orphanage, and Puppet Wars, and Showdown Icons, and Kings of Artifice, and whatever else they have on their plate (no showing from Terraclips, but who knows what is or isn't going on behind the scenes).

 Forar wrote:

 Valhallan42nd wrote:
Kickstarters are notorious for that. I've seen very few that deliver on time.

That doesn't excuse overloading ones plate, and given that they knew M2E was going to go live this year and most of the backers didn't, it's not our fault they had to prioritize at all.

They could have put TtB off another year until M2E was mostly settled, but they chose to do both at once, so no, I can't cut them much slack for how difficult it must be to attend to both lines, plus whatever Jetpack Unicorn asks of them, and Evil Baby Orphanage, and Puppet Wars, and Showdown Icons, and Kings of Artifice, and whatever else they have on their plate (no showing from Terraclips, but who knows what is or isn't going on behind the scenes).

Hindsight is infallible. Foresight is less so. They are guilty of over-ambition, and perhaps poor communication. But I think if you've seen the beta files, you'd agree the system is fairly interesting, even if it's been delayed.

That's not "hindsight is 20/20".

Working on a brand new product the size and complexity of an RPG while launching M2E alone should've given them pause.

Bluntly put, they knew they had an "omg gigantic and super complicated" project on the horizon.

And then started a second one.

 Forar wrote:
That's not "hindsight is 20/20".

Working on a brand new product the size and complexity of an RPG while launching M2E alone should've given them pause.

Bluntly put, they knew they had an "omg gigantic and super complicated" project on the horizon.

And then started a second one.

And they'll likely be delivering on that second project soon.

Dream forge models slipped about six months to a year, Mantic had huge delays, and Secret Weapon slipped as well. Big projects like this don't ship on time. There are unexpected delays and sometimes resources have to be shifted (just like Dreamforge got shifted in favor of Malifaux production at WGF). While I'm disappointed it's not out just yet, I know it's in good hands. Backers can play it now. Backers can help fix its minor problems. Backers know it's almost done.

From where I'm sitting, a backer has a right to disappointment, but not to the level the internet echo chamber seems to be ramping it to.

 Valhallan42nd wrote:

 Forar wrote:
That's not "hindsight is 20/20".

Working on a brand new product the size and complexity of an RPG while launching M2E alone should've given them pause.

Bluntly put, they knew they had an "omg gigantic and super complicated" project on the horizon.

And then started a second one.

And they'll likely be delivering on that second project soon.

Dream forge models slipped about six months to a year, Mantic had huge delays, and Secret Weapon slipped as well. Big projects like this don't ship on time. There are unexpected delays and sometimes resources have to be shifted (just like Dreamforge got shifted in favor of Malifaux production at WGF). While I'm disappointed it's not out just yet, I know it's in good hands. Backers can play it now. Backers can help fix its minor problems. Backers know it's almost done.

From where I'm sitting, a backer has a right to disappointment, but not to the level the internet echo chamber seems to be ramping it to.

March 2014 is not what I would consider "soon" especially when we were all told that 1) Mack was hired to develop the RPG, and that 2) "soon" was slated for end of September.

Dreamforge was pushed back due to someone else's project getting in the way and was not their fault that they got pushed back, and the people that are backers are upset, but are understanding with it because it's not Dreamforge's fault. Mantic has figured out their issues with Kickstarters, and now do everything in waves so people will get the basic stuff and everything else trickles in (they learned their lesson), Secret Weapon has slipped, but not 6 months of slip. But this was not an unexpected delay because they assigned their RPG lead dev to work on M2E in addition to working on Through the Breach, so they likely knew the repercussions of their actions. You also have to remember that the Through the Breach Kickstarter ended early January of this year, Mack didn't start open beta for 9 months after the end of the kickstarter, and had closed beta 5 to 6 months after the end of the kickstarter, we were told that the game was functional shortly after the project ended, and that he was looking to start playtesting with backers as soon as possible. Backers can now play, but up until two weeks ago Backers could not feasibly run a game because we did not have access to the Fatemaster's Alamanac. As a backer, I have little idea of where the project is because they've dropped the ball on communication. An update goes out, and 3-4 days later an email gets sent out saying that there has been an update. So by the time you get the announcement half of the week has disappeared, and we've got a few days to look over the rules see what's changed, and get our group(s) together.

Am I happy that I finally have an 'end date' in sight? Somewhat, but I'm still not happy about the time between July 3rd and when this update went out. July 3rd is where they dropped the ball, when an update went out saying everything was looking good and Mack (the same day) said that TtB won't be available in time for GenCon, and that he wouldn't be sending the stuff to the printers by late August/early September, which meant that an end of September fulfillment was unlikely. Honestly, I'm half tempted to ask for a refund simply because I've been extremely dissatisfied as a backer, and Dakka seems to be the only place I can voice such displeasures because the few threads I've seen on the playtest forums about disliking the delays have been met with stiff resistance about those that are happy to drink the provided flavor-aid.

I think the important thing to realize is that being upset online isn't going to make the project going any faster, and if it will make you happy, you should ask for a refund. Because being happy is more important than waiting for something that is making you unhappy.

How many two volume role playing game projects has Wyrd produced? I backed Mark Miller's Traveller 5, that shipped about six months late (and technically is still missing two promised rewards), and in a perfect world should probably have gotten a few more months work done on it. And that was Mark Miller doing an RPG book.

I would much rather wait until July (or later, if necessary) if that will result in a well edited product for this project.

Alf, 100% hear you on expressing frustration without modes or fanboys jumping on you... I'm not at that state of frustration on their RPG, but went through a nearly identical experience with PP (small that I'd always recommend, to occasionally play and no love towards them, due in large part to attitude).

I guess it's easier for me since I really didn't back this for the RPG. I chose the "bunch of miniatures" pledge and have enough of a backlog to last. Those minis better have M2E rules with them, too.

Umm... are you making a joke? All of the pledges were based on the books, and most of the minis were generic RPG pieces...

Not a joke. The rulebook was part of all pledges but the pledge "ladder" was split into a miniature-loaded one (dining room) and a "special edition" books loaded one (living room).

I wanted (and pledged because of) all the cool multi-pose models, Hanna, LE Santana, and the Hanging Tree.

 solkan wrote:
I think the important thing to realize is that being upset online isn't going to make the project going any faster, and if it will make you happy, you should ask for a refund. Because being happy is more important than waiting for something that is making you unhappy.

Nope. That's an awfully short sighted, black and white way of looking at things.

Won't apologize for feeling that a company should set realistic goals and communicate delays in a timely fashion. Wyrd set September as the goal, they even one-upped it with the "Look, we totally hope to ship in August even, totally!" in the FAQ, there was no reason to believe they'd blow past their initial timeline by half a year until the timeline itself was up. No way of knowing a whole second revision of the fraking game system would eat up most of 2013, or that they were planning to expand their brand name by another 4+ projects. Or that they wouldn't even let us know of the delay until a few weeks from the delivery date, not to mention being confident of a timely delivery a mere 2 months before that.

Bluntly put, they've had my cash for 11 months now. I don't want it back, I want the product they received the money for. Apparently we're nearly 3/4 through the wait, might as well put in those last 4.

Well... maybe it's only four. ;-)

solkan wrote:I think the important thing to realize is that being upset online isn't going to make the project going any faster, and if it will make you happy, you should ask for a refund. Because being happy is more important than waiting for something that is making you unhappy.

I like RPGs, I like the world of Malifaux, but I do not like how this project has been handled. So I've been balancing how much do I want these books vs how displeased I am with the campaign as a whole.

How many two volume role playing game projects has Wyrd produced? I backed Mark Miller's Traveller 5, that shipped about six months late (and technically is still missing two promised rewards), and in a perfect world should probably have gotten a few more months work done on it. And that was Mark Miller doing an RPG book.

Wyrd has produced 0 roleplaying games, but Mack Martin has worked on a number of games, with several RPG books to his credit. He was hired as lead RPG developer. With that being said, I felt that a Wyrd RPG was in good hands and as such had no reason to believe that Wyrd, a company I promoted in my local play scene as an awesome company, and an RPG writer with a proven track record of solid games would not provide me a product within the time period in which they said they would. All of this was before they added Kings of Artifice, M2E, Showdown Icons, and Jet Pack Unicorn to their line. At the time that I pledge and the time that this campaign ended, I only knew that Wyrd was going to work on the RPG, and Book 5, and that Evil Baby Orphanage was about to finish fulfillment (on time). EBO's stretch rewards were delayed for 3 months due to that plushie, but the main game was in my hands on time and I had played it several times, and was okay with what I was experiencing. Wyrd is a major player in the Table top gaming world and they should done a better job communicating their issues, they should have started the open beta months before they did, and they shouldn't have put Mack on M2E in addition to his TtB duties. Say what you will about him being able juggle both developer jobs, but 1 of 2 things had to happen.

1) Quality suffers on one product in favor of another's success. Malifaux is Wyrd's bread and butter, they certainly couldn't let quality suffer, and so Mack's efforts were probably focused on helping with M2E's rollout. He said that this meant longer days in the office as he had to work on both M2E and TtB. So Mack probably let the quality slip on TtB, and now they're back pedaling to get everything back up to speed and in working order.
2) Development of one game basically stops while they shift their attentions to M2E. This is the most probable case as Malifaux is there main line, and it became an all hands on deck sort of thing. There is nothing wrong with this, but we're paying for it now and it's frustrating as all hell to be a backer of Through the Breach to see this game get pushed back for one reason or another, reasons that don't seem to be very big reasons.

The thing that ultimately bugs me about the M2E and TtB timeline is that M2E went from open beta to the publishers to a finished product in the same time frame that we've had our open beta for Through the Breach. 2 months and a half months. Now I know that M2E was discussed late last year (as Nix has mentioned he was involved in that process somewhat), and that they had a closed beta going on for several months prior to their announcement of M2E, but during that same time period, people could have been testing Through the Breach. If I was given the playtest files in March instead of September, then I would have had 6 months of time with my RPG group with which I could have been testing this game. Things change, groups fall apart, and now I'm sitting here with playtest files that are freakin' useless to me because my RPG group has died and I don't have anyone to test it with. I know that a poster has mentioned that we have a playable game, yeah, but if I don't have people to play with, then it doesn't really mean jack gak. Think about that, 6 months of open beta (for the backers). Now I know that the first playtest call went out on in early March, but because it wasn't the 'open beta' we were all expecting, and NDAs had to be signed. Unfortunately I'm in some weird legal grey area in that while I've done work for a game company, I was not employed by them, and thus couldn't participate in the that call.

If there don't seem to be any more delays, then I hope I get my stuff so I play something that will have been more than a year in the making...

Breotan wrote:I guess it's easier for me since I really didn't back this for the RPG. I chose the "bunch of miniatures" pledge and have enough of a backlog to last. Those minis better have M2E rules with them, too.

I would assume that Hannah does come with M2E cards because she doesn't have a 1st edition counter part. The Hanged and Santana do have Malifaux counterparts, but they were sealed in plastic when they were selling them/giving to Henchmen, so the only answer I have is probably not, but a hopeful maybe (for those that want M2E)

I guess it depends on how much stock they have on hand. I was expecting another production run to meet KS requirements. If they go that rout, they could put in new cards. But they probably won't. :/

Or they could just include Santiago / Hanged / Guild Guard M2E cards with their respective boxes. Don't really need to open up the boxes just to toss in the appropriate cards.

Not that I care either way; what little interest my crew has in the game is aimed at 1.5, not an arsenal deck between us.

Just sayin'. No need to get out the exacto knives if they want to have 2.0 cards sent out. With the standardized card size, a 'penny sleeve' and a piece of tape would do fine.

Unfortunately, there's been no answer from wyrd if the oversized Hangedare legal in 2nd edition. Hoping that they are, though, since it seems poor form to release models that became illegal because of how long it took them to get to their customers.

Nathan Caroland wrote:

Anaxiamander wrote:Out of curiousity, are these going to end up going out with the eventual Through the Breach Terious/Santana for those who will receive them?

Yeah. No reason not to give you the latest updated card while we have them on hand.

HELL YES!

Good to know, but what I really wanted to know was about the Hanged, since those don't actually work with current rules...

I saw an interesting suggestion where they could make it an upgrade to have Hanged on 50mm bases rather than their usual 30s. Worth a full stone or two? I dunno, I have zero experience using them or playing against them, but if it's a big enough deal to expand their radius of influence, this seems like a fairly elegant way to do it.

Obviously using the giant trees on a 30mm base would be problematic, but going 30 to 50 using magnets could prove to be fairly elegant/cost effective for those so inclined.

So, it's been a while since we got an actual update, but there's some small movement on the TtB front.

http://wyrd-games.net/community/page/Games/through_the_breach.html

Through the Breach is a tabletop roleplaying game set in the world of Malifaux. Players take on the roles of various citizens, such as Gunfighters, Drudges, Dabblers, and Entertainers. Each of these characters is as unique as the players themselves. These are the Fated. As a Fated, you know your future, it has been told to you, as cryptic as the sparrow on a moonless night. It is your task to rush headlong into the arms of destiny, or to carve your own future.


One player takes on the role of the Fatemaster. It is his duty to craft the legends of the other players, to narrate the story of Malifaux in his own vision, and to move each Fated along towards the moment when they must choose between their fortune and their soul.

Through the Breach is a card-driven RPG, with actions resolved through the reveal of cards from a communal Fate Deck. Each player, however, has a Twist Deck of their own, and they can use these cards to push fate towards their own desires. The Fatemaster, however, relies on no such randomness. He is the lord of providence, after all. It is his task to weave a story, and if he dares to touch the Fate Deck… there are repercussions.

Through the Breach, the Malifaux RPG testing has been completed and is now in the final stages of editing and layout before being sent off to the printers.

A big thank you to all of our Kickstarter backers as we move forward in completing Through the Breach and giving us the chance to bring this exciting project to fruition.

Backers of this project will be informed when the printed product is in hand and we will ship and complete the project immediately after. It'll take a bit longer before it makes it to the public through distribution but we'll keep you appraised.

Emphasis mine.

A KS update would be nice, but considering that we established their printer knocked out their 5k M2E run in around 3 weeks, and they've got 8 left on their "late Q1" timeline, hopefully we'll get some good news soon.

They've also been putting out an update or two (ish) per month since August, and the last one was January 6th, so we're due for something from them, assuming they hold to that general pattern.

 Forar wrote:
So, it's been a while since we got an actual update, but there's some small movement on the TtB front.

http://wyrd-games.net/community/page/Games/through_the_breach.html

Through the Breach is a tabletop roleplaying game set in the world of Malifaux. Players take on the roles of various citizens, such as Gunfighters, Drudges, Dabblers, and Entertainers. Each of these characters is as unique as the players themselves. These are the Fated. As a Fated, you know your future, it has been told to you, as cryptic as the sparrow on a moonless night. It is your task to rush headlong into the arms of destiny, or to carve your own future.


One player takes on the role of the Fatemaster. It is his duty to craft the legends of the other players, to narrate the story of Malifaux in his own vision, and to move each Fated along towards the moment when they must choose between their fortune and their soul.

Through the Breach is a card-driven RPG, with actions resolved through the reveal of cards from a communal Fate Deck. Each player, however, has a Twist Deck of their own, and they can use these cards to push fate towards their own desires. The Fatemaster, however, relies on no such randomness. He is the lord of providence, after all. It is his task to weave a story, and if he dares to touch the Fate Deck… there are repercussions.

Through the Breach, the Malifaux RPG testing has been completed and is now in the final stages of editing and layout before being sent off to the printers.

A big thank you to all of our Kickstarter backers as we move forward in completing Through the Breach and giving us the chance to bring this exciting project to fruition.

Backers of this project will be informed when the printed product is in hand and we will ship and complete the project immediately after. It'll take a bit longer before it makes it to the public through distribution but we'll keep you appraised.

Emphasis mine.

A KS update would be nice, but considering that we established their printer knocked out their 5k M2E run in around 3 weeks, and they've got 8 left on their "late Q1" timeline, hopefully we'll get some good news soon.

They've also been putting out an update or two (ish) per month since August, and the last one was January 6th, so we're due for something from them, assuming they hold to that general pattern.

Out if curiosity, what happened with the multipose character sprues? I can't recall having ever seen any WIPs or renders regarding that stuff, but I haven't been playing close attention.

There were a few renders but then it disappeared*. The renders look about what you'd expect: same detail as the new plastics but less dynamic 'cause they've got a ton of options.

*edit: as in, no more info, not as in they took the images down... still on the KS comments IIRC