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Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

I hadn't planned on getting the nuns. Those feet aren't doing anything to bring me around.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in us
Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran





California the Southern

I would have preferred boots as well.

I wanted a few nuns, but I'm mostly cherry picking for skirmish stuff anyways (and a bit more character focused) but I can still understand the distaste in the new designs.

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

By the by, am I the only one that completely forgot about this?

Spoiler:


How... how is that going to work?

   
Made in us
Experienced Saurus Scar-Veteran





California the Southern

Same way it worked in the 70s. With practice.

...

...

...maybe they'll release legs in addition to the heads and torsos? Might as well make whole new figures at that point...

Poorly lit photos of my ever- growing collection of completely unrelated models!

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/627383.page#7436324.html
Watch and listen to me ramble about these minis before ruining them with paint!
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCmCB2mWIxhYF8Q36d2Am_2A 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Same way it worked in the 70s. With practice.

...

...

...maybe they'll release legs in addition to the heads and torsos? Might as well make whole new figures at that point...


Is it possible that RH has forgotten that they were making the male conversion kits? That seems crazy, but...

   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka





Bathing in elitist French expats fumes

Now, imagine they don't budge and double down on those heels. Imagine the size of them on those mega-armoured chicks they showed us concepts of?

 GamesWorkshop wrote:
And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids!

 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

A reply has been sent, which (in typical fashion) takes a whole lot of words to say very little;

Spoiler:
We received several messages concerning our sisters' heels and since they all asked more or less the same questions, we thought it simpler to come up with a general answer that would cover what you asked us and maybe a bit more. We are not including this in our regular Updates because those are long enough as it is (and people often complain about our walls of text) and we did not want to bother backers (like Lust Elves and Dark Elves fans, for example) who would not feel concerned about this. So please grab a tea or coffee, and dive in:
First, I am really sorry that you feel disappointed by the high heels on our Sisters, and I understand that you would prefer another style of footwear.
Probably like you, I have bought tons of miniatures and have looked at tons of press releases showing sculpts that I would love to be slightly different. Just a small change would have made a big difference for me. So I totally get your point.
So let me give you a bit more info about what we do, why we do it, what's really going on, and what we might have missed.
Running a project as big as TGG2 is a massive undertaking with more than 3000 backers involved and as much as our intention are good and we try to please everybody, it is inevitable that at one point, we'll come up with something that some people don't like. In fact, it can be anything that we do. Some people will say that our miniatures are too sexy. Others will complain that they should more sexy (this happened during TGG1 and on many other occasions). Some will love the design of this sword or that weapon, and others will hate it.
As much as we would like to please every single one of our backers, this is sadly a totally impossible task. From the very beginning of Raging Heroes, we've been developing very strong and personal aesthetics in the way we dress and pose our characters. We understand that these choices cannot fit everyone's tastes, but at the same time, they are what has made Raging Heroes the distinctive and successful brand that it is.
Like we explained on many occasions, the images we show at the launch of the campaign, whether they be sculpts or concepts, are always work-in-progress. As much as we strive to stay true to those concepts, we also always try to improve them. And we've been frequently named as one of the only company that is able to deliver sculpts that are an improvement on our concepts.
Of course, once again, an improvement is a subjective thing. And some changes cannot always please everybody.
When we create creatures like the Draahks that somehow follow the commonly accepted archetype of Dark Elves riding some sort of dinosaurs, we take a big risk in offering a new take that is nevertheless fairly different from the usual raptor-like creatures. A lot of people might not like that look. And even if we show a preview of that in the concepts, in the end, the sculpts end up being fairly different from the originals shown in the campaign, and that is because we keep on refining the design of the armies and adapting it to the 30mm scale. Since I'm the one inspiring and supervising these creations, I may find (like was the case with the Draahks), that the concept artist has done a great job, but that we could push it further at the sculpting stage. So at every stage of the process, we run the risk of creating something that a few (or a lot) people might not like.
But I have to do this because my job is to make sure that the Raging Heroes aesthetics and the coherence of each of our armies is preserved throughout the whole creation process. Of course, the changes we make are entirely subjective, but from our experience, they always turn out into something that people like more than the concepts.
However, on some occasion, some details or parts of a design generate a strong reaction, both for and against, from the people who follow our work, be they backers, regular customers or miniature enthusiasts who simply look and comment on new releases. This is the case with what is happening with the Sisters' heels right now.
Contrary to what some comments might make you think, we received a massive onslaught of positive messages these last few days, especially regarding the Sisters. So, I feel a bit at a loss to know how to answer you.
The vast majority of the backers love everything about the Sisters, including their heels. And I can say that these troops have probably been the most popular of all the troops (albeit being also the ones generating the most upheaval) we have shown until now in TGG2.
So, even if I understand that some people may be put off by this look and some are being very vocal about it, I cannot change it when the majority of the backers like them that way.
Please understand that I am not trying to put down what you feel about them by sharing with you these informations. I'm just trying to give you a little bit more perspective and understanding of what's going on and why we do what we do, in the hope that it will help you look at the Sisters in a different way.
To be honest, we were very surprised by these strong reactions.
The truth is that high-heeled characters have been a typical RH thing from the start, and it also happens that, while sometimes generating controversy, these characters have always been the ones people like the most: The Kurganova Sisters, Asharah, The Blood Vestals (scifi and fantasy), Mad Nurse Bernadette...
But more than that, TGG2 Sisters' characters like Celenia, Reyallia, Altarii, Arthenia, and the Daughters of the Crucible all have high heels and we haven't received A SINGLE complaint about them.
Even more so, Celenia, Reyallia and Altarii have armours and general outlook that are very similar to the Regulars and Icariates' look since they are meant to be heroines of these units. They have been created like the template of these troops.
So we understand why some of you prefer more heavy looking, no-heels, army boots, we really do, but still, this is odd...
So we wondered “could there be something else that have made you feel something was wrong with the Sisters Troops and Icariates? A thing that transformed a design that everybody seems to be fine with into something that strongly irritated some people?”
Well, the answer seems quite obvious. And it's an easy fix.
Ok, we don't mean it solves the whole like/dislike issue, but we think it will make a big difference.
It is true that some of these models have a strange looking ankles. And so you could feel like some of them have a hard time standing up, accentuating the feeling that the heels look impractical and not warrior-like.
When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is not a Sisters problem only, since some of the Dark Eves Troops have the same kind of ankle deformation, which will also be fixed.
For the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.
The Fantasy Angels update that we are posting today won't have this correction yet, but don't worry, it will be done and we'll show you the change soon.
And finally, please remember that very few miniature companies ever show their sculpts or renders in such large images as we do. What you see here on a full-size image looks more like a movie poster than a regular small photograph of a miniature. These heels will look very differently when your miniature is based, and on the table. They will virtually disappear from view and, if you want to, by filling the gap between the heel and the sole, they'll look nearly non-existent. We know for sure, because we often had the opposite problem when we based our own models and tried to preserve the heels look.
Now, there is something else we need to address.
Many queries and complaints about the heels issue were perfectly fine and concerns were expressed in the most constructive way. And we are happy to address them as deeply as we can.
But some of the comments we read or messages we received used adjectives like “silly, ugly, stupid” in a very dismissive manner and this is something that nobody responds well to.
If we were the ones using these words, everybody would rightly find us offensive.
You might find us a bit old school (we are fine with that) but such speech is disrespectful and rude, both to a team that works VERY hard, and to the other backers who may or do disagree with what is being said. It's all quite unfortunate, and does not help any cause: it's hard for opposite opinions to come and work together when such words and attitude are tossed around.
We find that nothing constructive can come out of this kind of interactions and this is something we cannot condone. We don't want you, or any other Loud'n Raging backer, or the people who work with us on this, to have to deal with that kind of bad vibe.
On our end, we are sorry that it took us several days to answer your questions, but these last few days have been truly hectic and we wanted to examine the issue carefully and calmly before giving you a detailed answer.
Once again, we are truly sorry if this message does not bring you the exact solution you were hoping for, but I hope that this long message has helped you understand the things that we do, and the changes that will be made.
Benoit Guerville
Art Director
PS: One last little thing, talk about serendipity...... Oddly enough, I stumbled on this today... Take a look at John Blanche's illustration on the first Games Workshop's Battle Sisters' codex. This is the very first Battle Sisters illustration they ever made if I'm correct. Look at this foot on the skull... Life is odd


TLR, Nothing of substance will be changed.

   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

Jimsolo (Collegium reject) just now
As a side note, the John Blanche illustration that is referenced in the email is exactly the sort of hypersexual, chicks-with-guns fetishism that drove so many backers to choose Raging Heroes over Games Workshop in the first place. If you can draw strong parallels between that image and the newest renders, I think that's a very good sign that the artists might need to do a little reworking of the models.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

The sad part of it is, they've managed to entirely live down to my expectations. In the first KS, I pledged about $300. As one may note from my signature line, I had some problems with how they ran their campaign, not least of which was their constantly shifting rationale for changes made and impenetrability to suggestion. I ended up with a variety of heroes and a marked caution towards the company.

This campaign: $15. Looks like I made the right choice. It's a sorry situation where I can drop my pledge amount by 95% and have no regrets, but then again, buried in that long, self-congratulatory email they pretty much reserve the right to change whatever they want, whenever they want.

By the way, it's worth pointing out that in the previous campaign, a large number (I would say the majority, but don't hold me to that) of figures are far more interesting precisely for their lack of high heels. This temptation to put everything and everyone in stripper heels is a marked change from the first campaign, and not a positive one. That's what really makes it so irritating: they could be a great miniature company if only they could restrain themselves.

   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

I don't blame you. I also don't blame anyone who tries to get their money back at this point.

I backed for...a boatload of money. I don't plan to get the nuns, but I've been seriously disappointed with the renders so far.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

Interesting, apparently RH is now refusing to honor requests for refunds;

Saga Wälivaara about 1 hour ago
My request to be refunded was denied and I was left with this.
"However, our Financial Department suggests that we wait until all our sculpts are finished, in order to see if some miniatures can meet your expectations. If not, then they will be discussing the refund at this time."
Just have to wait it out then.


First, this does not strike me as something that RH could maintain if someone really wanted to push the issue. If you pledged for X, and then X (as you pledged for it) is not going to be made, you have the right to a refund. It is not incumbent on the backer to instead settle for Y or Z.

Second, I wonder, if all of the people that were expecting sisters and are unhappy demanded a refund, I seriously doubt that RH could actually fulfill them. One can't help but notice the proliferation of sales enhancements that RH has been engaging in recently: their last update continued their "Flash sale" (it's now less a flash and more a lingering glow, I suppose), and their 'deal' tab on their website is... extensive. It's worth pointing out that, even on sale, their stuff is really expensive. I mean, substantially more expensive then Infinity expensive.

*My response from the comments;
Spoiler:
@Saga Wälivaara: Just to be clear, you wanted a refund because they're not producing X, they knowledge that they are not producing X, but they are refusing to refund you and demanding you instead accept Y and Z?
If that is the case, then it really comes down to whether your pledge was completely motivated by the sisters troopers. If so, then it's not unreasonable to point out that they are simply not going to make what you pledged for (the difference between soldier and stripper aesthetic is a material alteration), and you may wish to contact the financial institution that you used to pay your pledge.
For most people that is going to be your credit card company or your bank. This is not a new issue, even for kickstarter; it's no different then having a contract for groceries. If you arraign a contract for 100 kilos of apples, and are then told (a year later) that you can't have apples, but apple sauce, grapes or pineapples, then the other side is in breach of contract.
That's why I'm asking if it's ONLY the (now) stripper-ified troops that you pledged for, because while you may be able to get your money back, it's pretty likely that's all you're getting back. It's lousy position for RH to put you guys in, and I'm sorry you had to learn this the hard way. Like I said, I learned this last campaign and it meant $300 to $15, you guys are learning it now.

   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Really expensive and horrendously niche in application in the case of some of their sets.

I made the mistake of buying three boxes of their KST troops and one command box to crank out a twenty strong infantry squad. The models of their first KS are not suited for building entire armies like advertised, not unless you like duplicate poses with a lot of "unique" snowflake parts, which in my case meant way too many overly dynamic running legs and nowhere near enough arms holding the common rifle in both hands. In hindsight, as lovely as the models are, even with the discounts I've been given, it would've been cheaper to get the official twenty model squad from Forge World instead.

It's a good thing they're having so many sales these days, as I do still buy the odd mini from them from time to time, but no longer for the purposes of building entire squads.



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in gb
Using Inks and Washes





I got exactly the same copypasted reply when I asked for a refund.
Going by the whole message, their stance on the matter is basically 'Thank you for your money, but this is a Kickstarter, you knew there was a risk it would all turn to crap, so tough cookies.'

Hopefully I'll find enough other stuff to replace the Fantasy Sisters with, I'm just glad I didn't put as much money in to this as I originally planned.
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

Did they ever unlock that witch hunter by the way?



Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 aku-chan wrote:
I got exactly the same copypasted reply when I asked for a refund.
Going by the whole message, their stance on the matter is basically 'Thank you for your money, but this is a Kickstarter, you knew there was a risk it would all turn to crap, so tough cookies.'

Hopefully I'll find enough other stuff to replace the Fantasy Sisters with, I'm just glad I didn't put as much money in to this as I originally planned.


I think the one thing everyone should take away from this is:

When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is not a Sisters problem only, since some of the Dark Eves Troops have the same kind of ankle deformation, which will also be fixed.
For the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.


They ARE reacting to the criticism, and they're even explaining why they changed from boots to high heels.
What they're asking you to do is wait for the final designs. Yes, they will be wearing high heels, but they will look better than on the current renders. They've already said so, although they added a LOT of explaination to it.
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

The issue is that some people just flat out don't want high heels (pun intended). I get that, but I would still wait to see the updated version before making any final decision. The changes may mitigate it enough for some people. I, personally, don't care if there are high heels or not.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Buzzsaw wrote:
It's worth pointing out that, even on sale, their stuff is really expensive. I mean, substantially more expensive then Infinity expensive.

I'm not buying RH because they're cheaper than GW, I'm buying them because I prefer the sculpts over GW. Victoria Lamb is also much more expensive than GW - a simple infantry squad is $50, two boxes of Raging Heroes Iron Storm troops are basically the same price. GWs Cadians are $30 but of a MUCH lower quality.

Sisters, on the other hand - well. GWs price is just cray-cray for an absolutely substandard product. They're seriously asking for $80 for a squad of 10 ancient, low-quality and utterly non-customizable metal miniatures. And for that you're not even getting all the Special Weapons you need, no no - you'll have to shell out another $14 for any heavy weapon or $9.50 for any special weapon you might want to add to that one melta and two stormbolters.

And that's not even taking into account that you might want to build Retributors or Dominion Squads.
2 Squads of Retributors? That's $137 if you go the cheap route of grabbing a 3-pack of regular sisters as the Sister Superiors.
You get a whole army of Sisters for that price through the KS.
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

nekooni wrote:
 aku-chan wrote:
I got exactly the same copypasted reply when I asked for a refund.
Going by the whole message, their stance on the matter is basically 'Thank you for your money, but this is a Kickstarter, you knew there was a risk it would all turn to crap, so tough cookies.'

Hopefully I'll find enough other stuff to replace the Fantasy Sisters with, I'm just glad I didn't put as much money in to this as I originally planned.


I think the one thing everyone should take away from this is:

When we noticed the problem, the rendering pipeline was already running at full speed and so, it was not the time to go back and fix everything then. This is not a Sisters problem only, since some of the Dark Eves Troops have the same kind of ankle deformation, which will also be fixed.
For the Sisters, to correct this problem, we will reposition the armour correctly and we will add an extra plate at the connexion of the foot and the shin, a bit like what we've done for the Daughters of the Crucible.


They ARE reacting to the criticism, and they're even explaining why they changed from boots to high heels.
What they're asking you to do is wait for the final designs. Yes, they will be wearing high heels, but they will look better than on the current renders. They've already said so, although they added a LOT of explaination to it.


With due respect, you're misunderstanding their point when they claim to be 'fixing' the problem; that problem is not a design decision, but incompetent and lazy 3D sculpting, There was a picture going around, I'll see if I can find it...

In any case, it's largely irrelevant. Well sculpted high heels versus poorly sculpted high heels is a matter for people that are willing to accept high heels. The problem is that high heels versus boots is a material alteration. As I've said several times, what RH is doing now is not legally dissimilar from a produce supplier taking an order for apples, collecting the money and then telling the customer he's not going to get apples, but applesauce.

The quality of the applesauce is ultimately not relevant to the fact that it does not actually fulfill the contract.

By the by, it's also worth pointing out that the 'explanation' (which I include in its entirety in an above comment) adds a lot of words, but the actual explanation boils down to 'because we felt like it'.

EDIT; found my post with the terrible sculpting that they are now going to fix (and it is terrible).
 Buzzsaw wrote:
Bit of a scrim on the KS page over the change of the Not-Sisters of Battle from wearing boots to high heels. For my part i'm going with the 'anti' faction, for two reasons;

First, when they were actually asking for money, the renders and concept art all had the not-Sisters in boots. Switching from boots to heels so far from feedback may satisfy their retifism, but it seems scarcely appropriate.

Second, and there really is no other way to put this, they did a crap job in some very notable ways;
Spoiler:


Seriously, that's just bad sculpting. Not only are the feet and ankles contorted into unnatural and downright improbably/impossible positions, but armor plates are bending and angling in ways that don't speak of fantasy materials or powered armor but laziness. That's what happens when you just grab a 3D model and move things without caring about what it's supposed to be. It resembles nothing so much as how armor works in older MMOs like WoW: armor isn't an actual texture in man cases, it's simply painted onto the character model. So steel plates flex (and bounce and jiggle) like they have no weight, because they don't.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/27 13:25:11


 
   
Made in us
Hellish Haemonculus






Boskydell, IL

In the wake of the form letter, I sent them an email asking a couple questions and addressing one of the letter's points.

They replied with the form letter.

Welcome to the Freakshow!

(Leadership-shenanigans for Eldar of all types.) 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





America

Its also kickstarter....which (while some treat it as such) is not a preorder system.

The fine print of KS allows for some serious changes to be made with little to no consequence..

Now...companies pay a price if they screw over people in their reputation...but it is still something they can do.

I for one like the high heels...cause unrealistic girls in unrealistic armor is pretty much why i showed up to this party.

Age Quod Agis 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Buzzsaw wrote:

With due respect, you're misunderstanding their point when they claim to be 'fixing' the problem; that problem is not a design decision, but incompetent and lazy 3D sculpting, There was a picture going around, I'll see if I can find it...

In any case, it's largely irrelevant. Well sculpted high heels versus poorly sculpted high heels is a matter for people that are willing to accept high heels. The problem is that high heels versus boots is a material alteration. As I've said several times, what RH is doing now is not legally dissimilar from a produce supplier taking an order for apples, collecting the money and then telling the customer he's not going to get apples, but applesauce.

The quality of the applesauce is ultimately not relevant to the fact that it does not actually fulfill the contract.

Not at all. If they promised us plastic models and delivered a simple block of plastic your analogy would work, but you're completely exaggerating the change they did.
If you don't accept High Heels that's a different matter, agreed. But many of the models already showed them, and RH is known using that style for their products. It sucks for you, but they did explain their reasoning - to have the style consistent across the army. You don't have any legal right to a refund, the product will be mostly what was presented as early designs. one detail is not enough to say "this is a completely different product".

That being said I would hope they'll allow refunds once they had the chance to present the sculpts the way they want to finalize them, without the problems from the rendering mistakes. That would be fair and square, and they also get a fair shot at convincing you to stay onboard. Not you as a person - as you're so adamant about not wanting high heels - but backers in general, of course.
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

nekooni wrote:
 Buzzsaw wrote:

With due respect, you're misunderstanding their point when they claim to be 'fixing' the problem; that problem is not a design decision, but incompetent and lazy 3D sculpting, There was a picture going around, I'll see if I can find it...

In any case, it's largely irrelevant. Well sculpted high heels versus poorly sculpted high heels is a matter for people that are willing to accept high heels. The problem is that high heels versus boots is a material alteration. As I've said several times, what RH is doing now is not legally dissimilar from a produce supplier taking an order for apples, collecting the money and then telling the customer he's not going to get apples, but applesauce.

The quality of the applesauce is ultimately not relevant to the fact that it does not actually fulfill the contract.

Not at all. If they promised us plastic models and delivered a simple block of plastic your analogy would work, but you're completely exaggerating the change they did.
If you don't accept High Heels that's a different matter, agreed. But many of the models already showed them, and RH is known using that style for their products. It sucks for you, but they did explain their reasoning - to have the style consistent across the army. You don't have any legal right to a refund, the product will be mostly what was presented as early designs. one detail is not enough to say "this is a completely different product".

That being said I would hope they'll allow refunds once they had the chance to present the sculpts the way they want to finalize them, without the problems from the rendering mistakes. That would be fair and square, and they also get a fair shot at convincing you to stay onboard. Not you as a person - as you're so adamant about not wanting high heels - but backers in general, of course.


Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.

The better course of action is through people's payment methods: credit cards and banks. This particular action is about as close to a bait and switch as one is likely to find, as should be easily remedied if RH continues to be intransigent.

As for "they did explain their reasoning", it's largely irrelevant. This wasn't a change motivated by exigency, but a conscious decision to not supply the product ordered and instead supply a different product. As I pointed out above, applesauce and apples are both fundamentally similar and yet distinct, so it also is that a figure costumed in boots and uniform is fundamentally similar and yet distinct from a figure costumed in the 'sexy Halloween' version of a uniform complete with stripper heels.

With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Buzzsaw wrote:
Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.


It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.


Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/27 15:01:09


 
   
Made in us
Did Fulgrim Just Behead Ferrus?





Fort Worth, TX

I would argue that the apples to applesauce analogy is a poor one, as those are functionally different items. A better one would be if Honeycrisp apples had been replaced by Red Delicious.

"Through the darkness of future past, the magician longs to see.
One chants out between two worlds: Fire, walk with me."
- Twin Peaks
"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a naysayer and hatchetman in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method... is love. I love you Sheriff Truman." - Twin Peaks 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

nekooni wrote:
Spoiler:
 Buzzsaw wrote:
Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.


It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.


Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."


Succinct counterargument: it allows you to both express contempt for the state of the law, ignorance of the law, while at the same time still conceding the point. Bravo. Moving on.

The big problem, of course, with the arguments that people have been making about how this 'unifies the aesthtic', is that... this change actually completely upends the existing aesthetic that RH had going for them, and replaces it with a simplistic aesthetic of 'high heels = sexy', 'sexy = good', therefore 'high heels = good'.

Or, as I put it in the comments;

Spoiler:
@DeSteele: Yeah, you make a good point that I had been thinking about in the back of my head. The simple fact is that the more one thinks about Benoit's reasoning, the less sense it actually makes.
Raging Heroes now makes 4 human armies (5 if you count fantasy separately): Iron Empire, Jailbirds and Kurganovas from their first campaign, and Sisters from this one. All of the first campaign troopers are wearing boots (I looked and could not find any troop boxes in heels, except the mech zombies, which I don't count as 'human'). All of the troops.
Now, we come to the sisters, and while they were shown wearing boots, now, for some reason, they're in heels.
This isn't just aesthetically displeasing, going from soldier uniform to 'sexy Halloween costume' soldier uniform, it now actually breaks the aesthetic of their 'universe'. Previously, in the Raging Heroes universe (remember, they have for years claimed they were making a game world for this), humans wore 'normal' clothes and boots to war, except for the crazy standout characters where it was a part of their character. Elves, on the other hand, always wore crazy heels, as a way of differentiating them from humans.
Now, that aesthetic is broken down, You have three lines of human troops that look like they inhabit one universe, and the sisters, who look like they inhabit a fetish parody of the same universe. The more thought one gives to this, the less sense it actually ends up making.


Now, while that is a problem with the aesthetics, let's be honest (as Benoit actually has been) and concede that these are not being bought to be used in RH's eternally 'coming soon' game system, they're being bought to be used as Sisters of Battle. This creates a very different problem, as my understanding is that RH's sisters were considered one of the more 'popular' offerings, so let's play a little with numbers.

Let's assume that the Sisters were not a prohibitive favorite, but substantially more then the alternatives, say 40% of backers were in this for not-SoB.

There is a poll that has been run by someone in the comments about Heels/Boots, and the poll tilts to Boots, but let's be generous and call it a 50/50 split (so 20% of total backers on either side).

Now, of those that prefer boots, some will undoubtedly either be okay with the changes, or willing to spend their pledge money on other things. Let's again say 50%.

So, while admitting that all of the above is speculative, let's imagine that 10% of total backers are what we might term hard core SoB players looking for not-SoBs. As I'm sure many of us are familiar with SoB players, when it comes to the nuns, they can be... less then easygoing.

If that's the problem that is blowing up in slow motion in their inbox, no wonder they are taking their 'phone off the hook', so to speak.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Tannhauser42 wrote:
I would argue that the apples to applesauce analogy is a poor one, as those are functionally different items. A better one would be if Honeycrisp apples had been replaced by Red Delicious.


That would be fine too. In Frigalament the difference was between frying and stewing chickens. There are any number of possible analogies, The important bit is that, contrary to what was claimed, there is no simple test for what differences are material and what are not. I content (with fair confidence) that to a non-trivial number of SoB players that bought into this for non-GW SoB figures, high heels are a material difference that makes these figures unsuitable.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/04/27 15:59:00


 
   
Made in de
Witch Hunter in the Shadows



Aachen

 Buzzsaw wrote:
nekooni wrote:
Spoiler:
 Buzzsaw wrote:
Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.


It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.


Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."


Succinct counterargument: it allows you to both express contempt for the state of the law, ignorance of the law, while at the same time still conceding the point. Bravo. Moving on.

Oh, no - you're missing the point. I wasn't expressing contempt for the state or the law nor was I conceding a point. I was acknowledging that you think you have a point while expressing contempt for you - a person that claims that changing the footwear of a miniature is the same as throwing it in a blender, and at the same time claims higher authority by telling us his occupation in a really pompous way. How you being a lawyer makes you more qualified to judge whether or not a product is or isn't changed in a material way is beyond me, though. Don't courts usually call on actual experts for that type of judgment?

And that's even ignoring the whole "this is concept art, subject to change - be aware there are risks!" aspect which would probably have the whole case thrown out in a court - although THAT is probably something you're much better qualified to judge than I am. But then there's the whole "RH are French and I am German, so US laws are really irrelevant to me" thing, even if the US laws would ensure a refund for US customers.

This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/04/27 19:42:16


 
   
Made in us
Mutating Changebringer





Pennsylvania

nekooni wrote:
Spoiler:
 Buzzsaw wrote:
nekooni wrote:
 Buzzsaw wrote:
Rather then belabor the point, let me simply say that, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, I consider this change to be a material alteration. You are free to disagree, of course, but I, for one, would be immensely amused by seeing Raging Heroes join FRIGALIMENT in the annals of 'contract cases law school students find amusing'. Likely RH would find it less so. Realistically I don't imagine it won't come to that, if for no other reason then simply defending themselves from such litigation would be stupendously more expensive then simply paying the refunds.
#
With due respect, this will be my only comment on the legalities involved; there appears to be a colorable legal claim that RH must refund, and absent the provision of controlling legal authority it seems best not divert the topic in an overly dense tangent.


It's fine that you, as attorney in the United States, licensed to practice law before the state and federal governments, consider changing one design detail that makes up less than 10% of the entire model, without changing the quality nor the functionality of a product, as the same thing as turning apples into applesauce.


Lawyer: "Doctor, before you performed the autopsy, did you check for a pulse?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for blood pressure?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "Did you check for breathing?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "So, then it is possible that the patient was alive when you began the autopsy?"
Witness: "No."
Lawyer: "How can you be so sure, Doctor?"
Witness: "Because his brain was sitting on my desk in a jar."
Lawyer: "But could the patient have still been alive nevertheless?"
Witness: "Yes, it is possible that he could have been alive and practicing law somewhere."


Succinct counterargument: it allows you to both express contempt for the state of the law, ignorance of the law, while at the same time still conceding the point. Bravo. Moving on.

Oh, no - you're missing the point. I wasn't expressing contempt for the state or the law nor was I conceding a point. I was acknowledging that you think you have a point while expressing contempt for you - a person that claims that changing the footwear of a miniature is the same as throwing it in a blender, and at the same time claims higher authority by telling us his occupation in a really pompous way. How you being a lawyer makes you more qualified to judge whether or not a product is or isn't changed in a material way is beyond me, though. Don't courts usually call on actual experts for that type of judgment?

And that's even ignoring the whole "this is concept art, subject to change - be aware there are risks!" aspect which would probably have the whole case thrown out in a court - although THAT is probably something you're much better qualified to judge than I am. But then there's the whole "RH are French and I am German, so US laws are really irrelevant to me" thing, even if the US laws would ensure a refund for US customers.


Hmm, you're right, it is strange that someone would imagine being an attorney would confer some insight into the applicable laws or legal standards. I suppose we'll just have to relegate that question to the land of mystery... it is, as you've done, much better to speculate wildly while making baseless and incoherent assumptions. Trully, your theories about the legal island that is France are tantalizing, as are your ideas about expertise in miniature footwear. Perhaps you have a newsletter we could subscribe to?

Listen, you don't want to argue the law, that's fine. I've shared my professional opinion, you've shared your amateur opinion, let's leave it at that, shall we? Moving on.

The new update is out, and it features their take on Angels with dirty faces... oops, I mean stripper heels, half-a dozen of the other and all that.

I left some feedback there (long story short, nice figures, but really weird proportions in some areas), but the real thing that struck me overall is what BrookM mentioned: their figures are just so 'dynamic' that they end up really poorly done for making actual units. The angels especially don't look like a unit that you would want to ever have more then one of, because so many highly distinctive design elements would be so obvious when you have more then one.

There are angels ascending, angels descending, angels shoving forward a book, etc. They all look rather nice (with the noted exceptions), until you have more then one on the field. They really seem more painters miniatures or heroes then unit figures.

Which rather ties into one of the things I've observed about RH: they just don't know when to tone things down. Troopers should not be so distinctive, because you end up on detail overload.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/04/27 20:17:10


 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





America

I have often noticed that one just one figure of their troops would make a spectacular sergent/squad leader/general of your whole army etc etc

Any one of those squad angels could be a replacement for ....umm...that saint leader of the sisters..angel..chick.

I don't play sister so I don't know her name.

Ray

Age Quod Agis 
   
Made in nl
[MOD]
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Cozy cockpit of an Imperial Knight

It's a combination of having way more "special snowflake" poses and options than the boring old bread and butter options that may do it in over time. And yes, the inability to tone it down is a massive factor in all of this as well. It's an army so busy and full of character that well, it makes you lose focus of who are supposed to the heroes and who are supposed to the scrubs!

I'll keep it in spoilers, but people looking to build armies, or even squads using the Raging Heroes models, here's what it may end up looking like. I used the Kurganova regular infantry boxed sets and one command boxed set for these.

Spoiler:














My biggest problems with these infantry kits, in short:
- Way too many running legs
- Stationary legs are far too akimbo (this is even worse with the Jailbirds sets, who can't fit onto regular 28mm bases!)
- Not enough helmeted heads! (I want the boring helmeted heads, not the wild, wind in the hair heads! )
- Not enough arms holding a rifle in both hands, whether it is shooting or at ease, there are way too many gesturing arms, or ones holding grenades and demolition charges!

The last one is particularly damning. What I was hoping for was a unit of voidborn infantry that could neatly be ranked up into a cool firing line, but when I do that on the tabletop I'm stuck with a unit that seems to be in utter chaos and doing anything but firing.

Another problem people should look out for is this, pardon the crappy picture:

Spoiler:


RETURN OF THE CROOKED SPINES. All girls from those boxed sets (ditto with my box of Jailbirds and the many blisters of character sculpts I've bought) have a perky bum and quite a crooked back, so buyer beware, this may also very well happen with the sisters. I think we can safely assume that the elves, of both fantasy and scientific persuasion, already have these.




Fatum Iustum Stultorum



Fiat justitia ruat caelum

 
   
Made in us
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





America

But....Brook....this is Raging heroes. I mean ...perky butts, bent spines and armor with cleavage.... isn't that their objective. Isn't their whole motif Pinup models in army gear. It seems odd to me for people to expect different. Even their "ugly characters" are worth taking home.

Much like if you bought a few set of Victorias female IG and angrily declared they all were much too sensibly proportioned and appropriately dressed. They are what they are designed to be.

Not looking to fight..just a tad confused

Age Quod Agis 
   
 
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