Switch Theme:

Blackadder's attempt to build the BOLS Warlord Titan  [RSS] Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit
»
Author Message
Advert


Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
  • No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
  • Times and dates in your local timezone.
  • Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
  • Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
  • Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.




Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

Thank you very much for your kind words; should I get recognition for recruiting new members?

We Don't Need No Steenk'n Yellow Guard Rails!

Yellow guard rails may have been a mistake. Introducing colour into the interior is pretty much at odds with the 40K genera The dark Gothic decor is depressingly
de rigueur and departures from this norm stand out as not really Warhammer worthy.

http://i.imgur.com/vYaat67.jpg


On the plus side positive replies from people that I consider very good painters is certainly encouraging although I would also welcome objective negative critiques as well.

I mean someone may find my colour choices less than acceptable?

http://i.imgur.com/fyR7wJY.jpg


I really like these little red guys.............

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 20:56:21


"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending







I think that you can certainly keep the yellow rails, however you will want them significantly more weathered down. More of a brown wash could help you get a more suitable color. Flaking paint, etc. As it it its simply too bright and clean!

You arent gonna hazard stripe all that, are you? I mean thatd be crazy


And the little red guys are awesome! Nice to see them in their natural habitat.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/14 20:59:48


   
Made in us
Anti-Armour Yaogat




Cookeville, TN; USA

Well, when this thing was first produced, I am sure they would have used the "caution" yellow paint on the hand rails. Makes sense.

However, I would scuff them up a bit, get some good oil and grease on them and some carbon scoring considering how old something like this is likely to be. =D

And you ARE doing excellent painting on this bad boy!


BUT, I need to note: I always paint my models as if they are either new off the assembly line or are highly maintained during an armies downtime. Regular white glove inspection style.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/15 03:23:51



There are 10 types of people in this world; those that know binary and those that dont.
----->MANTIS MAKER COMPETITION <---- 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

Okay we're going from how to paint handrails to.................

The Warlord Colour Scheme At Last:

(But true to form it won't be easy)

I have finally found a colour scheme I deem acceptable for my Warlord.

I was painting the black base coat and reflecting on the 'Avengers' movie when it struck me that the huge flying target aircraft carrier might give me some ideas on how to paint a large military vehicle. Googling images I instead found this (The aircraft carrier was painted like.... well an aircraft carrier; boring) the alien space craft from "Battleship", a movie I have never seen btw.......

http://i.imgur.com/dMxkmmr.jpg


Perfect!

Now I only have to figure out how to do it.....Ha!

"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in us
Incorporating Wet-Blending







Oooh, yes! That should look ace if pulled off right, and I have every confidence that you can make it work!!

You arent missing anything special with missing Battleship, btw... Awful movie. Barely watchable for all of its nonsensical "story" and noise for sake of noise.

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

I ordered the movie "Battleship" from Amazon (Blueray) just for reference. It promises to be just as dumb a movie as "independence Day", ''Pacific Rim'' and The ''Avengers'' I'm sure.

Yet Again:

Please Blackadder not another series of the Warlord in pieces..........

Yes but hopefully this will be the last time until the final assembly after painting.

Over the years of this build I have never completely disassembled all the umpity ump components that make up the two main structures of the model.

http://i.imgur.com/BDOuxbO.jpg


That being the torso and the leg main assemblies see below:

http://i.imgur.com/Ke0TBsm.jpg


These structures slide easily apart via the center shaft for ease of transportation.

In the following posts today I shall be disassembling all the nonglued parts for black priming so the detail will be obscured until enhanced with highlighting.

Most noteworthy is I completely forgot to detail the bottom of the waist and the pelvis block.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/19 13:22:24


"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

Been away too long, too much happening around here, and I see your staying the course . Loving the look of the interior panel paintjob so far, very minimalistic in color choice and so mechanicum at the same time. I think the yellow guard rail can be explained as the mechanicum's attempt to make the crew more welcome , they obviously had to sit through some long politically correct touchy feely course on working better with their meat puppet imperial friends and rewrote their safety protocols to ensure no mishaps occurred.

Battleship movie is one I rented from redbox.....I hope you didn't pay full retail . Moral of the story "outdated weapons of destruction are still weapons of destruction."

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in us
Liche Priest Hierophant






As far as I can tell, Battleship, while meant to be in the same vein as movies like Independence Day and Pacific Rim (Popcorn-munching actionfests without much real depth to them), it apparently failed, by (I hear) trying to force too much story and character into things.

I've never actually watched it all the way through, though, so I may be wrong about that.

GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.

If yer an Ork, why dont ya WAAAGH!!

M.A.V.- if you liked ChromeHounds, drop by the site and give it a go. Or check out my M.A.V. Oneshots videos on YouTube! 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

These alien movies leave me cold, technology the aliens possess would be on an order of magnitude as us being compared to ants.

Here is a well thought out critique of ID4 from a "Rocket Scientist:

http://www.ultimax.com/whitepapers/1996_3.html

One thing he did leave out although I may have missed it skimming the article and my initial reaction on seeing the movie was a spacecraft 1/4 the mass of the moon orbiting the earth at 2000 miles would raise 2000 foot high tides that would wash over the continents approximately every three hours and completely destroy all life on earth in a couple of orbits.

Of course that would make for a rather short movie.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/10/20 01:44:17


"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in us
Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?





Affton, MO. USA

The thing that kills me in most movies is the fantasy or post apocalyptic movie where the only electricity seems to be just enough to power an electric razor . Seriously make movies where the actors don't shave for three weeks and dong get to bath. Let's get some authenticity. I also disliked the movie where everything on the planet flash froze, can't think of it right now maybe 'the day after' or something similar.

LOL, Theo your mind is an amazing place, never change.-camkierhi 9/19/13
I cant believe theo is right.. damn. -comradepanda 9/26/13
None of the strange ideas we had about you involved your sexual orientation..........-Monkeytroll 12/10/13

I'd put you on ignore for that comment, if I could...Alpharius 2/11/14 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





Plotwise, Battleship is as dumb as it looks, but it has some solid tech design.

   
Made in us
Liche Priest Hierophant






Solid tech design? I'd say not.

Seriously, I hope I never see another Sci-Fi movie (action or otherwise) with 'slippy-slidy plates of metal' used as functioning machinery again.

Beams, motors, cables, pistons, actuators and sheet metal is all you need to make something and all you should be making it out of. You might have different design aesthetics, or technology allowing certain parts to be smaller or made of different materials, but you can't just dump a box of magnetic scrap into a blender and call it an 'alien robot'.

GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.

If yer an Ork, why dont ya WAAAGH!!

M.A.V.- if you liked ChromeHounds, drop by the site and give it a go. Or check out my M.A.V. Oneshots videos on YouTube! 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





Anvildude wrote:
Solid tech design? I'd say not.
Seriously, I hope I never see another Sci-Fi movie (action or otherwise) with 'slippy-slidy plates of metal' used as functioning machinery again.
Beams, motors, cables, pistons, actuators and sheet metal is all you need to make something and all you should be making it out of. You might have different design aesthetics, or technology allowing certain parts to be smaller or made of different materials, but you can't just dump a box of magnetic scrap into a blender and call it an 'alien robot'.

True that, it's a matter of personal preference and what you put into the word I guess. I always found slippy-slidy metal plates kinda cool looking, (I even suffered through all three Transformers movies just for that), but it does require you to turn off some parts of your brain in order to enjoy it.
I can't honestly recall a Sci-Fi movie that actually had fully believable vehicles since... well, maybe since Aliens.

   
Made in us
Liche Priest Hierophant






See, what's funny is that Pacific Rim actually had technology in the Jaegers. Did you know that they actually designed and created 'functioning' machinery for the entirety of each of them? Barring square-cube issues and energy requirements, if they built those Jaegers exactly based on the models they used in the movies, they'd work. Parts are modeled for interior components that you rarely if ever see, there's modelling for power conduits and greasing valves, joints have all the components 'machined' to their proper tolerances, with bearings in the rotators and hinges in the bendy bits... It's fantastic. Basically it allowed them to go 'we want this to be stabbed here' and just put a hole through that bit, and then having all the interior bits that got damaged sitting pretty inside where they needed to be.

GENERATION 8: The first time you see this, copy and paste it into your sig and add 1 to the number after generation. Consider it a social experiment.

If yer an Ork, why dont ya WAAAGH!!

M.A.V.- if you liked ChromeHounds, drop by the site and give it a go. Or check out my M.A.V. Oneshots videos on YouTube! 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

Actually I watched "Battleship" last night and I found it not too bad aside from there being no star in our vicinity that can be reached at the speed of light (Radio transmission speed) and back in six years round trip. Proxima Centuri is the closest know star (Excluding the Sun) and that is slightly under 4 light years and is a red dwarf that has no discernible planets. Glieses stated in the movie as the alien homeworld is 22 light years away so it would have taken 44 years for the round trip if the aliens could travel at the speed of light. Glieses is a triple star system of red dwarfs and does have a Goldilocks world (Not too hot and not too cold) but if that is the case then to be an the habitable zone the year would be quite short which would play hell on seasons.

If you can put that mistake aside the rest of the movie has a tongue in cheek quality that amuses if you can turn a blind eye to the carnage and total disregard for the laws of physics and safety such as storing live ammunition on a museum ship.

Best throw away line missing from the movie; no one said, "You sunk MY Battleship!"


Automatically Appended Next Post:DAMN!
Meritissimus:

First let me warn you you have to wear a dust mask when handling metal powder; I don't want yer mums sending me nasty emails saying the stuff gave junior Alzheimers.

After spray painting quite a few of the parts flat black today I tried rubbing in a bit of aluminum powder. A little goes a long way and all I used was the residue on the jar theads to do what is represented here.

This first shot from high angle shows the highly reflective quality of aluminum powder. Aluminum is one of the few silver coloured metals that retain it's silver colour when reduced to a talc dust particle size, most others turn black.

http://i.imgur.com/CQhQF1T.jpg


Just the dome and the top of the helmet was done in this image the rest of the head is still flat black.

http://i.imgur.com/rfyibwn.jpg


The breast plate and back panel are highly reflective as well but for some reason do not show as shiny in these images.

With no direct light the silver still is highly reflective but still gives a nice shading effect to the deeper recesses, something paint doesn't do, I should have my head examined for trying this out on such a prominent piece.

http://i.imgur.com/rpVdTdJ.jpg


I tried brushing it on (still using just what is in the threads of the jar) and it applies just as readily with a brush as with a finger.

http://i.imgur.com/vzX3HVk.jpg


Once applied it stays put although I'm sure it can be removed with soap and water as it comes off your fingers readily enough when washed.....

In all a satisfactory experiment, I still have the copper and the brass dust to try and some steel blue dust for contrast...

I may never use paint again.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/10/21 20:24:43


"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in se
Regular Dakkanaut





Anvildude wrote:
See, what's funny is that Pacific Rim actually had technology in the Jaegers. Did you know that they actually designed and created 'functioning' machinery for the entirety of each of them? Barring square-cube issues and energy requirements, if they built those Jaegers exactly based on the models they used in the movies, they'd work. Parts are modeled for interior components that you rarely if ever see, there's modelling for power conduits and greasing valves, joints have all the components 'machined' to their proper tolerances, with bearings in the rotators and hinges in the bendy bits... It's fantastic. Basically it allowed them to go 'we want this to be stabbed here' and just put a hole through that bit, and then having all the interior bits that got damaged sitting pretty inside where they needed to be.

Hey, that's awesome! Haven't seen it since watching it in theatres when it came out, I have to give it a rerun now though! Thanks for the heads-up!

   
Made in de
Painting Within the Lines




Hamburg Germany

Be warned about metal pigment powders, it has it's problems! Couple of years ago a friend of mine and me were very busy in building LARP weapons. While the results were more than satisfactory, it was pandoras gift, literally. One day opening a can of powder (was it copper? I think it was copper.) my friend was facing ( again literally) a dust explosion. If it hadn't been for his glasses, he would have taken the cloud fully into his eyes. As it was, he aquired a very unhealthy teint and ruined the ceiling of his living room, where he was working. We hadn't treated those cans other than with the same respect every workshop chemical deserves.
This is not the only dust explosion in workshop I have witnessed, but it is the only one I could not figure out which environmental factors had led to the event.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/21 22:50:42


 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

Anytime you are working with atomized powder you have to take care to prevent explosive reactions. Make sure there is no drafts, open flames and sparks and too much dust in the air but with this metal powder it settles out rather quickly.

Flour Silo explosions are deadly and can be set off even by halogen lights.

Whoa!

Sorry to tout my own horn but; Whoa!!!! This is what I was looking for. I wish the camera could show precisely what I am seeing in person because the highlights and colour shift as you look over the piece are breathtaking.

At the very least Chrsygon / Dirty Harry looks like he's made of pewter and I couldn't be more pleased.

http://i.imgur.com/g7CYt4c.jpg


The gluing damage where I first glued the veneer to the cheek armour replicates battle damage and dents from normal wear and tear perfectly; just what you would expect from millennia of service.

Most of what you see was applied in ten minutes hand rubbed into the basic black matte spray paint with no prep.

http://i.imgur.com/WcRsnnX.jpg


This last shot shows the base coat and the edge of the finished cheek where I stopped to take these images.

Note the colour shift due to slightly different angle of the light source.

http://i.imgur.com/uHF8QHD.jpg


This is precisely what I was looking for as a finish for this model.

Plus, Instant Patine.


"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in gb
Aspirant Tech-Adept






Wow, shame on me for not visiting this thread more frequently, I've missed so much .

So pleased to see this master piece getting some paint, and I know it's early days yet but it already looks like
your off to a great start .

   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






Near Boston

Damn dude. just wow.

Link to my Index Thread here on dakka


Find me on Twitter Sam Butler @Rivet_Zone

Winner "Best 40k Table" Daboyz GT 2010,2011
"Sic Vis Pachem Parabellum" - Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
Veni, Vidi discessi.-Galorn. 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

Not All Beer and Skittles:
or The Black Adder holds nothing back...........

Just to show my humility this series of images demonstrate my fallibility. Yesterday I posted images of my first attempt at a new (to me) technique that I stumbled upon quite by accident; in other words I found no instructions on the 'net demonstrating the howto and pitfalls of working with powdered metal.

Today I shall be showing my mistakes:

First I made the mistake of working in front of my computer so everything has a fine coating of aluminum powder that only ingrains itself if rubbed. Make sure you work in an environment that does not matter if it has a metal sheen when you are finished.

http://i.imgur.com/GbUUl6i.jpg


I have since moved my operation to the kitchen.

Second I touted the availability of this powder. I bought mine a few years ago when I was building Lucie my Warhound at that time I was looking for a dry material for the pistons that would act as a lubricant and allow them to telescope freely and the aluminum served the purpose admirably.

http://i.imgur.com/NTkWEMB.jpg


Well I did a search on the 'net and the company that produced the material appears to no longer produce the material thanks no doubt to the extreme 'Nanny-statism of the location of the company i.e. California. I have not yet found an alternative source so I'll post a link to the company's web page.....

http://www.modernmasters.com/about.asp

If you can find the product there, let me know.

Third I took some flash images of the work completed and although the eye cannot discern the difference apparently what is under the powder changes the albedo of the surface giving the two tone helmet/visor/face mask look under flash;

http://i.imgur.com/VnN3Eic.jpg


not a big problem for me now that I have discovered it because I already had decided to try to sand off the striations on the brow and give the helmet a redo.

Lastly I stated that I bought this products from 'Sipersteins' paint store; judging by the stick on pricing tag(s) this product had remained on the shelf for quite some time before being bought by me. (Few stores mark prices on items anymore)* I am willing to bet that it is no longer commercially available because of presumed toxicity. (While I took obvious precautions of nose filter and dust mask) I imagine this product would not be a good choice of topping for your breakfast cereal.

http://i.imgur.com/HSzOdXN.jpg


The same mentality that enforces mindless choking laws on kids' toys (Don't these kids play outside where, "Horrors!" lethal pebbles and acorns lurk and abound..., and mandatory headgear of bike riders has pulled products of this kind from the market even for the use by competent adults.......

Thank you Nanny State.

* When bar codes were first introduced people complained that they did not have any idea what the items cost so shelf marking tags were legislated with the following law introduced that, "If the product does not have a shelf tag stating the price and unit price/weight the store is bound to give you the item for free."

Does that law still apply? Has anyone tested that law lately? How many times have you picked up a product that was mislabeled only to find it costing more at the register. Do you fight for the discount? or let it go?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/23 14:06:38


"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in us
Contagious Dreadnought of Nurgle






Near Boston

that law varies by state.

Link to my Index Thread here on dakka


Find me on Twitter Sam Butler @Rivet_Zone

Winner "Best 40k Table" Daboyz GT 2010,2011
"Sic Vis Pachem Parabellum" - Publius Flavius Vegetius Renatus
Veni, Vidi discessi.-Galorn. 
   
Made in us
Blood Angel Terminator with Lightning Claws






Virginia

I don't have time to read everything (back to thermodynamics homework...), but it looks sharp as ever. I think someone mentioned the paneling work you do for the detailing, I agree it looks really great and proportional to the overall model. Something like this it's easy to forget the size (no banana for scale).

Terrain Blog Reaver Blog Guide to assembling Forge World Warhound titan
"So if I want to paint my house green, even if everyone else thinks it should be red, guess what? I'm going to paint it Jar-Jar." -George Lucas 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

Afghanistan Banana Stand:

Since the albedo so manifested itself in the flash I now can perceive the difference so there is nothing for it but to redo the helmet and whilst doing attempt to remove the unsightly striations in the brow. I first scrapped off the old layers of paint down to where the seams were not visible. A few nicks won't matter;

http://i.imgur.com/2VefLhq.jpg


I then wet sanded the brow to remove the scraps. The good new is the wet sanding got water on the powder but did not compromise it in the least so water won't damage the finish even without sealing.

http://i.imgur.com/HMFA8wM.jpg


Next I'll let it dry overnight and apply a base coat of black tomorrow followed tomorrow with an application of aluminum powder.

http://i.imgur.com/oKJF3Tt.jpg


Banana included for scale.............

"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in gb
Omnious Orc Shaman





A long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away...

AAA

So the foreheads getting a Botox treatment... Will massively improve the final finish I feel.

As for the aluminium powder, closest I know is 'Rub n Buff metallic finishes' but I think these are wax based??

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

Yes the intended use of the powder is to apply it mixed with wax according to the display when I bought it. There was a pamphlet explaining how to mix and apply to say picture frames baroquely ornamented with plaster castings to achieve the requisite gilt effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
An Impromptu Filler:

On occasion I have to resort to patching or filling poorly mated seams such as on the helmet where the base plate is ragged where it meets the lower edge of the brow. Now I could fill the gap with 'Greenstuff' and wait for it to dry, and sand it off but who has the time.

Here's a trick that is ready to sand in minutes, durable and cheap.

I amass some styrene sanding residue, (In this case I just cleaned the plastic dust off of my sanding blocks.) into a small pile on my work board. I then applied the thinset cement to the offending gap and dipped the glue engorged seam into the pile of styrene dust. A few repeats of the process fills the gap with the identical material as the original styrene which the can be sanded and painted just as the original piece.

http://i.imgur.com/qgZuwEA.jpg


A simple yet effective solution.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/24 12:06:03


"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in gb
Omnious Orc Shaman





A long time ago in a galaxy far, far, away...

Yeah, I've tried all types of filler and still think styrene dust is one of the most effective ways to go...

   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

Pardon My Dust:

While waiting for paint and glue to dry I started on the detail of the Command Deck.

Using the flash I was not aware of how much dust styrene filing was present on the model. Thankfully the Warlord head escaped contamination.

http://i.imgur.com/3hOIvsn.jpg


All the bitz are CoD

http://i.imgur.com/BV7V9Bp.jpg


I'm really pleased that the vestibule lines up with the external 'Door to Nowhere. Purely by accident I assure you.

http://i.imgur.com/e8e9GLD.jpg


http://i.imgur.com/DLNk8tg.jpg


The right side external catwalk

http://i.imgur.com/3Gwru4s.jpg


The Left side catwalk

http://i.imgur.com/tgmLiwk.jpg


The internal detail on this deck is only about half done FYI

"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
Made in us
Anti-Armour Yaogat




Cookeville, TN; USA

Why is there a Jawa in a Titan???

J/K


Great work!


There are 10 types of people in this world; those that know binary and those that dont.
----->MANTIS MAKER COMPETITION <---- 
   
Made in us
Quick-fingered Warlord Moderatus





The Great Satan (East Coast)

What a Difference a Day Makes:

Last week I embarked on an experimental technique to try to find a decent finish for my Warlord. Painting it a straight this or that colour confounded me because once that colour you are pigeonholed into a theme. Nothing grabbed me as the definitive end all and be all of finishes until I chanced upon the 'Battleship' alien watercraft. There was the finish I coveted for my titan.

In a hurry as is my wont when I conceive of a direction I plunged ahead committing the most prominent assembly of the model to dubious untried ministrations and fortuitously the technique worked, the the results were satisfactory.and I proceeded to embellish a few other parts of the model with the same procedure.

http://i.imgur.com/WcRsnnX.jpg


Upon photographing the results I found the aluminum powder augmented the detail but also augmented mistakes, poorly sanded areas and lastly subsurface paint which changed the reflecting value of the new surface material.

So yesterday scraping, sanding and wet sanding the helmet, first piece I did, resulted in the finish today which I consider a distinct improvement.

http://i.imgur.com/t0i3u18.jpg


Fortunately as this is the only piece that requires such an intense refinish; I can now proceed with the rest of the model.

Whoops, slightly out of focus; I'll try again later.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/10/25 11:45:27


"It is easier to deceive people than it is to convince them that they have been deceived."
 
   
 
Forum Index » Dakka P&M Blogs
Go to: