GW Fansites vs. GW: Cease & Desist Fallout

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**MeanGreenStompa**

Manchu wrote:Self-quote time!

Manchu wrote:Right, as stated, receiving anunexpected letter from lawyers is jarring. I think that's just what happens when the private sector crosses paths with the private citizen. It's like shaking hands with a Titan--whether he means to or not, his grip sorta crushes your hand.

At those times the titan should have the wit to realise it is not shaking hands with another titan and that it may crush the guy's hand, so it talks to the little guy instead, being careful to check it's communicating in his language and not frightening him, after all, it is a titan and he is a little guy, the onus is firmly on the titan.

**Manchu**

Wait, why? Isn't it GW's IP? We're dancing around the same points made in the recast threads: "I buy their stuff so they owe me!"

**fullheadofhair**

twistinthunder wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote: Warhammer 40k Device,

yep no 40k in there. nuff said

The trade mark is "warhammer 40k device" not "40k" - rather like "drink it in the sun" doesn't mean "drink" is also trademarked.

Like I say, the term "40k" isn't specifically listed on pg5 of the legal section of the GW website. Why do you think that? Maybe they forgot.

**Manchu**

@fullheadofhair: we've been over that; seems as though KK said 40k was a registered TM

**MeanGreenStompa**

Manchu wrote:"I buy their stuff so they owe me!"

If you buy their stuff, they do owe you.

That makes you the customer. That makes you the wellspring of the company's continued existence. Any firm saying 'we don't owe them, they just buy our stuff' needs a rocket fired under their asses.

The comparison to recasting is not a fair one. Utilising the name of the product to bring together fans of the product after the creators of the product stated that fans of the product should get together in this way seems a logical pathway for private individual consumers to take. The logical assumption for people coming together to discuss their love of jaffa cakes would be to call their website jaffacakefan.org or something. The problem and the distaste are generated for me personally, by the notion of a CnD letter being issued to these people 'cold'. It certainly appears, given what's been discussed so far (and mentioned by me before) that the legal compliance directives were the first notice anyone on the several websites had heard from GW.

That's my personal dislike in all this, that no mutually reasonable accord was sought prior to this.

**Manchu**

Actually, the comparison to recast is quite appropriate for the alleged SM ruleset at Dark Reign. I don't know if talkbloodbowl had any similar content or what the extent of the problems were.

When you buy from a company they only owe you what you have paid for. Whatever else you expect is a gratuity. As for GW, YMMV. They've always been considerate to me in my few dealings with them.

C&D letters are issued "cold" all the time. That's just the way lawyers work.

**BaronIveagh**

In any non-Berne Convention signatory nation, GW's IP ownership is questionable at best, and usually honored 'in the breach' as it were.

The major problem that companies like GW run into is that the Internet is everywhere, but copyright law is not. Therefor a webpage might be perfectly legal doing what it's doing in that country, but GW will still send a C&D threatening legal action, even if no legal action is actually possible in the nation in question.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Manchu wrote:
C&D letters are issued "cold" all the time. That's just the way lawyers work.

Well aware of how you folks work, I was referring to GW letting slip the dogs of law before exploring other avenues. Cold as in without prior communications from it's marketing/PR dept.

**Manchu**

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well aware of how you folks work, I was referring to GW letting slip the dogs of law before exploring other avenues. Cold as in without prior communications from it's marketing/PR dept.

On a slightly different note, I wonder why they don't let somebody who obviously wants to get the face time with the fans as much as JJ handles some of these things.

**MeanGreenStompa**

And I wonder why, given they closed down their own forums and recommended people set up their own, that they didn't offer layman friendly advice or some form of build patterns for establishing a forum or fansite that GW wouldn't have to issue the CnDs to.

Some kind of forum package and guidance.

**oni**

Kanluwen wrote:Funny that on the first page that George linked, someone already figured out EXACTLY why those specific sites are being targeted. Yet nobody mentioned it here...

Millandson wrote: It might entirely be down to the fact that we have "40k" in the website domain name and site name, as well as the linking of GW images from their servers, which is bandwidth theft, which can be illegal.

Admittedly, he posted that kinda small after the complete IP page that GW has (http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/content/article.jsp?community=&catId=&categoryId=&pIndex=3&aId=3900002&start=4).

But yes, while it's silly...it does make sense. People deep linking to the GW articles, photos, etc is a HUGE bandwidth leech. I know if someone started deep linking from my photobucket account or a private homepage, I'd go after them too.

Do you have clue how often that happens here? A LOT! So what does that mean for Dakka?

**BaronIveagh**

oni wrote:
Do you have clue how often that happens here? A LOT! So what does that mean for Dakka?

It means that dakka will get one in the mail as soon as they figure out who to send it to.

Though I've often wondered why dakka and warseer seem to get fewer of these then everyone else, when the activity is even more blatant.

**insaniak**

oni wrote:Do you have clue how often that happens here? A LOT! So what does that mean for Dakka?

It means that if GW sees something here being hotlinked from their website, and decides to send the administration a letter telling them to remove it, the offending image will be removed.

**Howlingmoon**

Manchu wrote:
MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well aware of how you folks work, I was referring to GW letting slip the dogs of law before exploring other avenues. Cold as in without prior communications from it's marketing/PR dept.

On a slightly different note, I wonder why they don't let somebody who obviously wants to get the face time with the fans as much as JJ handles some of these things.

\

Because Jervis doesn't want face time with the fans. He wants to issue decrees from the holy pulpit and tell everyone how bad they are*.

*That is not insinuating that he is incorrect.

**Manchu**

How bad at what?

**BaronIveagh**

Manchu wrote:How bad at what?

Making sense of GW.

If it's a problem with the mini, GW is a game company.

If it's a problem with the rules, GW is a mini's company.

**Dysartes**

fullheadofhair wrote:
twistinthunder wrote:
fullheadofhair wrote: Warhammer 40k Device,

yep no 40k in there. nuff said

The trade mark is "warhammer 40k device" not "40k" - rather like "drink it in the sun" doesn't mean "drink" is also trademarked.

Out of interest, what does "warhammer 40k device" actually entail, from a legal perspective?

**H.B.M.C.**

The Warhammer 40,000 logo I'd say, and the double-headed eagle design.

**Arwel**

It's pretty simple about the domain names. The fansites are in the wrong. As insaniak pointed out, you can be mad that GW has only called them on it now or is calling them on it in an inappropriately harsh way (the point I question) but you can't actually defend using GW IP in your domain name as rightful.

I'm genuinely curious if this is true. Can anyone cite any court cases either in the UK or US where a fansite or similar has been ruled to be infringing on a trademark in an url when they haven't been selling goods or services? Some of GWs claims may well be just bullying, they can claim what they like in those cease and dessists and legal pages but that doesn't necessarily mean their arguments will stand up in court. I fully understand why fans won't want to risk going to court to try and defend themselves though.

**agnosto**

meh, GW is just being Orky and we're the grots.

**BaronIveagh**

Arwel wrote:
It's pretty simple about the domain names. The fansites are in the wrong. As insaniak pointed out, you can be mad that GW has only called them on it now or is calling them on it in an inappropriately harsh way (the point I question) but you can't actually defend using GW IP in your domain name as rightful.

I'm genuinely curious if this is true. Can anyone cite any court cases either in the UK or US where a fansite or similar has been ruled to be infringing on a trademark in an url when they haven't been selling goods or services? Some of GWs claims may well be just bullying, they can claim what they like in those cease and dessists and legal pages but that doesn't necessarily mean their arguments will stand up in court. I fully understand why fans won't want to risk going to court to try and defend themselves though.

No, it's not. precedent: Beck v Eiland-Hall. As long as it cannot be confused with an official site, you can name your domain anything you damn well please, whether it contains a trademark or not.

**Kilkrazy**

Manchu wrote:@fullheadofhair: we've been over that; seems as though KK said 40k was a registered TM

It's registered, I don't know by whom as it costs to download that report.

I would take out a trademark on a certain term myself, only it costs about £1,000 to do so.

**Grimstonefire**

Methinks
http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/index.php

Will be getting a knock at the door soon.

**Teufelskerl**

Kilkrazy wrote:I would take out a trademark on a certain term myself, only it costs about £1,000 to do so.

Registering a Trademark is cheaper in the US, at little as $375, though the process is not fast; US Trademark Process

**siamtiger**

Another one is around:

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2009/11/12/31361

**Kilkrazy**

Teufelskerl wrote:
Kilkrazy wrote:I would take out a trademark on a certain term myself, only it costs about £1,000 to do so.

Registering a Trademark is cheaper in the US, at little as $375, though the process is not fast; US Trademark Process

To clarify, it's about £1,000 for a European trademark, a GB only one is about £350.

**Kanluwen**

siamtiger wrote:Another one is around:

http://www.tabletopgamingnews.com/2009/11/12/31361

From the link:

Games Workshop Limited has for some time been engaged in the business of designing, manufacturing and marketing: hobby board games; war games; models; miniatures; and associated products and in the course of this business has acquired and registered a large number of copyrights and other intellectual property rights.

It has recently come to our attention that much of the information hosted on your website, www.fumbbl.com (the “Website”), provides us with cause for concern as it conflicts with our intellectual property rights. Although we are confident that the Website is a well-intentioned resource, we are acutely aware of the need to assert our intellectual property rights. Specifically, our causes for concern are that:

* the Website contains copies of Blood Bowl statistics and rules;
* tje Java Bowl programme contains various pieces of GW Blood Bowl art including the Blood Bowl pitch and Blood Bowl logo; and
* the Java Bowl programme uses all the Blood Bowl rules and statistics for each model.

As you may appreciate, GW has a strict policy of protecting all of its intellectual property rights. To this end, we must insist that these materials are removed from the Website.

So, they want people to not post rules/stats or artwork from the books.

This is what people are up in arms about? Really? Jesus people. That's the same rules we abide by here on Dakka.

Or are you going to start pouting that the rules aren't available "legally"? Because last time I looked on ebay...

Or heck, maybe see if GW would allow a file server to be set up for hosting specialist games/space hulk rules or the like. Who knows.

**siamtiger**

It was just a notification, no justification added.

Many of these are plausible and comprehensible. It is just the question, where will be drawn the line between protecting the ip and crushing the fanbase.

I can absolutely see the point about the domains etc., but if you would really keep everything in mind that is written in the disclaimer, you couldn't even post pictures of new products in forums to discuss, as it would be a violation.

**Agamemnon2**

Since FUMBBL has been used for quite a long time by Blood Bowl aficionados to play the game without having to purchase any models, the decision to axe the Java Bowl program is only good business.

The fact that by so doing Games Workshop is slowly eradicating every last vestige of the Specialist Games fiasco is, to use one of your Earth expressions, "gravy".

**George Spiggott**

The Java Bloodbowl program could probably get round this by making players enter their own stats. Rules cannot be copywritten or Trademarked unless you copy the exact wording. The Bloodbowl pitch can be replaced with a simple grid with American Football markings on it.