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nkelsch wrote:

Are these 'restic' or are people trying to tell us why 'this time, it will be different' and we will see the same garbage figures with the same terrible material and casting process.

And I have seen some pretty terrible mold lines on Mars Attacks?

With mantic, it is Hard Plastic or go home. Every KS they claim to fix restic and it seems to not only not get fixed but get worse. So can you be clear? Renaming the material every KS to confuse people doesn't help.

This is the same material as Gears of War and Loka, but with an improved process for better detail that we should see in Mars Attacks and then DBX; this has been explained many times, but you do enjoy ignoring it. And I'm not sure which Mars Attacks minis you've looked at, but the pictures from the random box they had sent over from China looked pretty good to me.

As for your claim about hard plastic or go home, seeya later. There's nothing wrong with the restic in Deadzone, and the restic has been getting better - easy enough to compare across the timeline.

I'm all for giving them a chance here, but I think quite a bit of the restic in Deadzone was terrible.

NTRabbit wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

Are these 'restic' or are people trying to tell us why 'this time, it will be different' and we will see the same garbage figures with the same terrible material and casting process.

And I have seen some pretty terrible mold lines on Mars Attacks?

With mantic, it is Hard Plastic or go home. Every KS they claim to fix restic and it seems to not only not get fixed but get worse. So can you be clear? Renaming the material every KS to confuse people doesn't help.

This is the same material as Gears of War and Loka, but with an improved process for better detail; this has been explained many times, but you do enjoy ignoring it every time you drop by a Mantic thread to have a dig. And I'm not sure which Mars Attacks minis you've looked at, but the pictures from the random box they had sent over from China looked pretty good to me.

As for your claim about hard plastic or go home, seeya later. There's nothing wrong with the restic in Deadzone, and the restic has been getting better.

Except by all observable and impartial evidence, it isn't actually getting better. (IE: google "Deadzone Mold Lines" in google pictures) The material is fundamentally flawed. And by basically trying to mislead unaware posters who have seen the issues with restic and think PVC... it is new and better maybe? you don't do mantic any favors.

There is a large market for the next big Dungeon Crawler and the last two Big KS which attempted to fill the niche failed. Mantic is setting themselves to fail before they even take a swing because restic is terrible. Changing the names of the material to claim it is 'new' only misleads people and causes more harm than good.

So it looks like the model part of this game is 100% off limits due to the sub-standard material. Maybe they will release a 'rules only' at retail so if the rules are good, we can use other companies models.

ced1106 wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
So I'm really unfamiliar with PVC as a medium. What are pros and cons of it? Does it hold more or less detail than resin/metal and if so, how much? How about flash/mold lines? I have heard that it's pretty hard to remove it on PVC models.

It's not impossible, but "you get what you pay for". I spend a *lot* of time trimming off mold lines from the soft boardgame plastic, because I own mini's through boardgames. I saw your best paint jobs, and, if you don't intend to play DS, I think you're better off paying for more expensive metal and resin. You could always just pledge and cancel towards the end it if you're not happy with what you're getting. I do hope they'll offer sprues of existing models as, say, cheap add-ons during the KS. I mean, DKH was originally made to use their existing miniatures, and DS was made to be compatible with KoW miniatures.

Eh, if it's not that expensive I can give it a shot, at least I can use them as unit fillers or just game tokens (or NPCs) for DnD. Hopefully I'll get pleasantly surprised by the quality.

Shame, because I really love the greens and would buy them in a heartbeat if they were made in metal or resin, but I guess those mediums are not optimal for boardgame play.

Is the material similar to the DnD minis line, by any chance?

 Alpharius wrote:
I'm all for giving them a chance here, but I think quite a bit of the restic in Deadzone was terrible.

The only things that given me trouble so far are Wrath and the Marauder Pyro, and I think they're just not quite designed right more than anything else.

 heartserenade wrote:


Is the material similar to the DnD minis line, by any chance?

I don't actually know about D&D minis, but it's a similar material to the 'bonesium' Reaper has started using for their minis, if you're familiar.

Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!

I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?

 Alpharius wrote:
Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!

I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?

I'll pay that

Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.

Good point!

Shadows of Brimstone is causing a bit of a ruckus over this issue - even though they commented mid-campaign that some/many of the miniatures would require assembly.

I'm just glad that there will be a lot of 'hard plastic' over there too!

NTRabbit wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!

I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?

I'll pay that

Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.

Mold design is a result of sculpt, not material. Lots of companies have hard plastic single-piece models. They just have to have poses which work with a one-piece casting.

Heroquest was all single piece hard plastic (except the Gargoyle's wings).

Yeah, to repeat (In the hopes that repetition works - it does for my dog...). This plastic nothing like restic at all. It's not a new, tweaked formula of restic. It is a completely different thing from it.

In saying that, I can see the concerns that the detail may be a little softer than what someone would be hoping for. However, having done a whole load of Star Trek Attack Wing repaints recently, even having only a few of the old Loka minis as an example in hand, I can say that this material is far better than whatever made up those ships.

And, of course, it's not as if a Barbarian, Elf archer, Dwarf soldier and Human wizard plus a few skeletons are the hardest miniatures to get a hold on in the world if it does all go horribly wrong (which I really doubt...)

I saw some awesome D&D-esque minis on sale at the Board Games Expo made for RPGs that were just gorgeous from Otherworld Miniatures. And seem relatively reasonably priced too, for major characters at least.

 Alpharius wrote:
Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!

I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?

Hard plastic tooling is good, but the sculpting can be off ie. Men at Arms. Think that was a poor translation of manual sculpting to digital, so it theoretically shouldn't happen again as I don't think they're doing that anymore?
Restic is basically guaranteed to have annoying and time consuming mould lines, but imo the casting quality - the crisp detail and what not - was really good on deadzone stuff. Better than it was in Dreadball thanks to being the second iteration of the restic formula. It probably vaires less than resin in casting quality from what I've seen, but more than plastic ofc.
This new (for them) PVC stuff is single piece, minimal to nonexistent mould lines but a little less sharp detail supposedly.

And to be clear, any personal issues with restic is totally irrelevant to this new kickstarter, as Mantic are not using it.

I'll add that Mantic has improved substantially based on criticism received:
- After changing material without telling us, they were much more upfront about it when we complained.
- After complaining about restic from Dreadball they improved the formula for Deadzone.
- After complaining about rushed products resulting in them being poor they've taken their time and gone back multiple times to ensure they're good - ie. the delayed 3rd wave of plastic enforcers compared to the dodgy Men at Arms.

They're still not perfect, but they've improved and done so in response to what problems we've had with them which I think is admirable. They're always on time or close to it (at least for the ones I've been in) which is rare with kickstarters. I can understand if people want to wait for retail or don't like the Mantic philosophy, but so long as we get good value with the kickstarter I'm still happy to back Mantic in them if I like the product.

I'm not familiar with Reaper Bones either. I know, SHOCK HORROR.

How about Dust Tactics? Similar to the plastic they use?

One thing I've noticed is that the greens hold better detail than the painted version, but only slightly less so. I'll still buy them if the price is right, but it's not like I'm aiming to give them the most superb of paintjobs. It's just a shame because I am in love with the green sculpts (yes, more than other barbarian/human cleric/human mage/elf archer models) and would buy them in a heartbeat if they came out in metal, hard resin or hard plastic.

nkelsch wrote:

NTRabbit wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
Well, I'll grant you that the material is so...I don't know...fussy?...that it is entirely possible that experiences will vary greatly, even on the 'same' miniatures!

I think it is somewhat fair to say that Mantic's 'hard plastic' is really nice and 'safe', and that their PVC offerings can be...erratic?

I'll pay that

Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.

Mold design is a result of sculpt, not material. Lots of companies have hard plastic single-piece models. They just have to have poses which work with a one-piece casting.

The problem with this is the tendency for poses to default to either the "I work for the council" one hand by the belt and the other holding a weapon vertically or the "squatting for a poo" look. See 4th ed warhammer speamen(elf or gobbo), softer materials and molds allow a lot more variety in single piece minatures

 heartserenade wrote:
I'm not familiar with Reaper Bones either. I know, SHOCK HORROR.

How about Dust Tactics? Similar to the plastic they use?

Well, I'm not familiar with Dust Tactics, so I guess we've reached an impasse

Another vote for the Deadzone Minis are Dreadful party.

My Stage 2s have halos around their faces, the Stage 1 is so bad I can't bring myself to talk about it. The Stage 3s are actually pretty decent, and I'm looking forward to finally getting some paint on them!

The Orx Big Suits... garbage. Not one piece fit where or how it should. They look sh*t too, compared to the Dreadball Orx. Why go for such a different aesthetic?

However this wildly off topic so let me jump back on to that train and say:

I'm all in for DKQ and I think Mantic will deliver. This sounds like a hugely ambitious project and with so many dissenters on their previous KS campaigns I think they may have listened.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

NTRabbit wrote:

 heartserenade wrote:
I'm not familiar with Reaper Bones either. I know, SHOCK HORROR.

How about Dust Tactics? Similar to the plastic they use?

Well, I'm not familiar with Dust Tactics, so I guess we've reached an impasse

No such thing on The Internet - The next step is to apply Godwins Law

The Marauder Ripper Suits are my favourite minis from the first wave, and mine were fine and fit together a treat.

 monders wrote:

No such thing on The Internet - The next step is to apply Godwins Law

You're right, and anyone who disagrees is literally Hitler

NTRabbit wrote:


Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.

Amazingly enough, I've had boardgames with hard plastic figures, some of which required assembly, I bought at a big retail store...



ANd I recently got the new Battlelore, which though softer plastic, does have a couple figures needing assembly.

I'm still not sure what Mantic has said to get everyone exited about this. Everyone wants a good dungeon crawl, but as we've seen those are easier said than done. What have they shown to put this on the rules/figure quality level of, say, Descent? Descent has nearly 50 figures and retails for $80. Heck, the D&D board game Wrath of Ashardalon comes with 39 figures, including a dragon mini for $65. Both include piles of dungeon tiles. For a $100 dollar price tag I would expect dungeon saga to include 60-80 figures or I don't know where the value is. And that would be at retail. I expect more value from a kickstarter.

Well, with the discussion of the 'sweet spot pledge' being 100 dollars, youd probably be talking about the equivalent of the game, plus 2 full expansions being that price by the end of the campaign.

I suppose you may be right that the 100 dollar point may scare people off before the stretch goals are unlocked. However they'll likely have a 'just the game' pledge level too.

 CptJake wrote:

NTRabbit wrote:


Hard plastic also doesn't work for a boardgame, because you can't cast them in one piece and we know the distributors just won't carry a game where you need to assemble your minis, hence PVC.

Amazingly enough, I've had boardgames with hard plastic figures, some of which required assembly, I bought at a big retail store...



ANd I recently got the new Battlelore, which though softer plastic, does have a couple figures needing assembly.

Battlemasters hasn't been in print for like 20 years. It was also distributed and promoted by Milton Bradley who at the time was a major player in the retail toy market. My point is that the modern, industry wide trend in boardgames is softer plastic miniatures.

 Galen wrote:
I'm still not sure what Mantic has said to get everyone exited about this. Everyone wants a good dungeon crawl, but as we've seen those are easier said than done. What have they shown to put this on the rules/figure quality level of, say, Descent? Descent has nearly 50 figures and retails for $80. Heck, the D&D board game Wrath of Ashardalon comes with 39 figures, including a dragon mini for $65. Both include piles of dungeon tiles. For a $100 dollar price tag I would expect dungeon saga to include 60-80 figures or I don't know where the value is. And that would be at retail. I expect more value from a kickstarter.

Well we've not seen the entire DKQ set yet, so everyone should postpone judgement until further details of the Kickstarter are released. We know Mantic throw a lot of extras and add ons with their stretch goal rewards. Deadzone and Mars Attacks! are good examples of this.

And BattleLore is available right now.

The point is, assembly-required figs have been and continue to be included in games available through distribution/retailers.

 CptJake wrote:
And BattleLore is available right now.

The point is, assembly-required figs have been and continue to be included in games available through distribution/retailers.

And are the rarity.

I'm willing to wait and see. I just don't understand people that are excited to drop $100 after only seeing a handful of scuplts and next to no game mechanics.

I'd like to see a high model count, low sculpt count and then goals for alternate sculpts and the occasional freebie.

 Galen wrote:
I'm willing to wait and see. I just don't understand people that are excited to drop $100 after only seeing a handful of scuplts and next to no game mechanics.

I'd like to see a high model count, low sculpt count and then goals for alternate sculpts and the occasional freebie.

Dwarf King's Hold has been out for 3+ years. The game mechanics are not a secret.

 Galen wrote:
I'm willing to wait and see. I just don't understand people that are excited to drop $100 after only seeing a handful of scuplts and next to no game mechanics.

I'd like to see a high model count, low sculpt count and then goals for alternate sculpts and the occasional freebie.

If you are looking at it In a vacuum, sure its not a good deal as it stands. If you have ever been a part of any other Mantic KS (which a lot of us have) then you would know they always give you a TON of stuff for your money. Thats where the excitement is coming from. We don't know exactly whats coming, but we are almost certain (based on previous experience) that it will be a lot of it.

A big part of why this is enticing is the compatibility with Kings of War stuff for me. Rescue a Basilean Elohi with allied panther riding sisters in the middle of an undead infested dungeon? Count me in!