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Made in au
[MOD]
Making Stuff






Under the couch

jamesk1973 wrote:
If the game doesn't matter, why does GW charge higher prices for game's most effective units?

Historically, because most of the more effective units were things that you didn't need as many of. Units or models that you only ever need to buy one of have always (or mostly always) been priced higher than things that people buy a lot of.


It's never been tied specifically to power level, though. There are plenty of expensive kits out there for units that people just don't want to use.

 
   
Made in jp
[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer






Somewhere in south-central England.

 jah-joshua wrote:
...

some people said Dreadfleet was a horrible game, and some people have said they enjoy it...
i could be wrong, but i have a feeling that the majority of people who poopooed the game didn't actually play it, but read some bad reviews and piled on...
at least most seem to agree that the minis were beautiful...

...
...


When I first saw Dread Fleet I thought the models looked rather amazing and the game could be fun even if I'm not interested in the WHFB background. However it quickly became clear from reviews that the game was a somewhat incoherent mash-up of rule ideas, heavily dependent on luck. As a keen naval gamer, I decided I was not interested.

However I know there are people who enjoy it because of the models and dependence on luck.

The point is that if you are experienced at games, and know what you like, you can read a set of rules and understand the key points of how a game will play. You don't need to play it. It's like being able to read a map. The map is not the territory, but if you know how to read the symbols and contour lines, and if you have done some hiking, you can get a good feel from the map for how tough a walk it will be, and whether it will go through woods or open hills, without having actually to walk it.

Back to the topic, Dread Fleet was GW's only new game between Lord of the Rings (2000) and Age of Sigmar (2015). The fact that it was a serious failure does not argue for GW's skills at game design or toy design. They obviously misjudged their audience.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/28 06:05:41


I'm writing a load of fiction. My latest story starts here... This is the index of all the stories...

We're not very big on official rules. Rules lead to people looking for loopholes. What's here is about it. 
   
Made in gb
Longtime Dakkanaut




Alternate Username wrote:
Wow, it's hard to believe there are so many people here who can't accept reality. You people really think GW is a gaming company and not a model company? Gaming companies don't last. GW has lasted for decades where companies like FASA and TSR collapsed during the 90s. That's because they make real money by selling toys. The pennies that they make from rulebooks are just icing on the cake, and they prefer to sell books electronically because there's less overhead that way.


Accuses people of not accepting reality. But takes a skewed and innacurate position himself? Pots and kettles come to mind.

Tsr failed because of appalling management decisions, as well as having a management thst didn't 'get' the product, or the fanbases and didn't care to find out either. And did a lot of the things gw are currently doing.

http://insaneangel.com/insaneangel/RPG/Dancey.html

Nothing to do with the fact that they were selling rpg's. The product (ie dnd) was in demand. The fact that their successor took dnd and kept it going proves this.

And I hardly consider £50 for a codex to be 'pennies'.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/07/28 06:52:47


greatest band in the universe: machine supremacy

"Punch your fist in the air and hold your Gameboy aloft like the warrior you are" 
   
Made in gb
The Last Chancer Who Survived




United Kingdom

For GW, the rules are sufficient srs biznis that they had near monthly releases for about a year, and are still spamming rules releases. While this is fairly obviously about making people buy the models (the largest % of their income), it does go to show that even GW has to admit, they'd be f*cked without a ruleset to drive purchases.
   
Made in gb
Lord Commander in a Plush Chair





Beijing

I'm pretty sure the 'we're a miniatures company not a games company' is all about repositioning themselves after the Chapterhouse case. Hell, you could see them doing it during the case, trying to argue that they are making collectible art sculptures instead of toys. When you assume everything they do is about protecting their perceived IP it all makes a lot more sense. They hugely overstate it's uniquness and their part in its creation - according to their head of IP everything is created in a vacuum without any reference materials at all, and they wouldn't lie to a court would they?
   
Made in no
Tail-spinning Tomb Blade Pilot






Deadnight wrote:

Tsr failed because of appalling management decisions, as well as having a management thst didn't 'get' the product, or the fanbases and didn't care to find out either. And did a lot of the things gw are currently doing.


Agreed, they got rid of the original designer Gary Gygax because of a divorce. He was forced out of his own company while he was in California being consultant for the cartoon spinoff of DnD. TSR managed to stumble on for 10 years, but they never understood their audience, their game or how to make money. Half of the novels were written by friends of the owners. Sourcebooks were lazy, campaign settings would be random and for instance have two pages about some minor thing about the setting, but nothing about the important things... Dungoneers Handguide springs to mind as an especially inferior product... They thought they could release anything and it would sell, because they did no customer profiling... GW is doing the same now.

Let the galaxy burn. 
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

Probably for the same reasons why some people think I'm a jerk. I act like one most of the time.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/01 20:50:23




Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 doktor_g wrote:
destrucifier wrote:
The problem is that the fans think they're smarter than GW. They think they're smarter than everybody. This is a big part of why product lines like WHFB collapsed. The neckbeards scare away everybody who takes a casual interest with their overwhelming arrogance and pettiness.


Not that I play WFB, but... I think that ANY company with a $160+ million market capitalization, a giant IP, and rabid fan base that will buy nearly ANYTHING that posts consistent quarterly losses and lacks a social media foot print in the second decade of the 21st century speaks for itself.

Why is Hasbro booming? Mattel following. GW, in third is cratering. Is it because of some inate genetic superiority or better management?

Why arent they making more accessible board games? Better computer games? Aquiring other game companies? Making toys? Aps? How much non GW stuff you you buy to play GW stuff? Why arent they making FAT mats? Why arent they sponsoring major tournaments? Sponosoring events is a bad business model?! Look at Red Bull they are $1b market cap beverage company that sponsors air races? Oracle sponsors the dang americas cup? GW can't even get an international competitive circuit put together? Heard of Twitch? Why arent they on there? A free video game (league of legends) has international comps....

This company is sitting on a golden egg, but they aren't doing ANYTHING with it except killing it with crummy rules and short sighted strategic decisions like squeezing FLGS and simultaneously CLOSING their corporate franchisees?

Doesn't really seem like enlightened leadership to me... but what do I know about it.... I am just a consumer....


This. Totally this. GW is this worst thing for the Warhammer IP. If any other game company had such an incredible IP, they would be growing the game and increasing their revenue and profit. Instead, GW's decisions have lead to reduced rev and profit and that's after a rapid storm of new releases this year. Not to mention all the players that they're losing. I sometimes wonder how great the Warhammer games would be if the IP was owned by FFG, PP, Mantic, Warlord, etc. etc. You know, companies who actually play test rules, communicates with the community, and whose sole objective is to MAKE GAMES.

I always like to say.... GW is to Warhammer as George Lucas is to Star Wars. And each year GW just keeps coming out with more midichlorians and Jar-Jar Binks.
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

I'd just like to point out that GW's IP isnt' as golden as you make it out to be anymore.

I remember when I first started in 40k in 2nd Ed. There were the broad strokes of the background but nothing was fleshed out. This let players "imagine" what things might have been like. You didn't know anything about the primarchs really, except their names. Lion El'Johnson, Leman Russ and Sanguinus were the only ones who had a smattering of background. On the Chaos side, only Angron, Mortarion, Horus and Magnus the Red had any major fluff. Back then, Fulgrim was just a name. The Horus Heresy was the most covered item, with a few pages devoted to it. Siege of Terra was a two page spread! Flight of the Eisenstein was covered in a paragraph! There was lots that was unknown and it let our imaginations run wild.

Then they put out the Chapter Approved articles detailing the legions. It was cool, but some of the lustre wore off. The Imperial Fists were transformed overnight from a super cool niche army (nobody wanted to paint the yellow!) who were the implacable defenders of the Imperial Palace to a bunch of self-mutilating rigid-thinkers led by overly stubborn, politically tone-deaf and tunnel visioned Rogal Dorn. They didn't even get good rules as compensation... Back then they got Sgt Lysander and BOLTER DRILL. I didn't want to know that the Alpha Legion was driven by a hydra sized inferiority complex.

Now pretty much every major event is mined dry and explicitly spelled out. There's not much that is left to the player imagination. I think that GW is strangling the fluff to death as hard as they're trying to squeeze money out of their withering customer base.
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Talys wrote:
 keezus wrote:
Mr. Correct wrote:
The quality of rule writing and testing have never affected a game's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with pretty playing pieces is worth ten billion perfectly written rulesets.

The quality of proper food preparation and seasoning have never affected a meal's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with expensive ingredients and pretty presentation is worth ten billion perfectly cooked portions.

The quality of reliability and crash safety have never affected a car's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package with rumbling engine noise and chromed parts is worth ten billion perfectly reliable, safe automobiles.

The quality of proper spelling and punctuation have never affected a resume's success in the marketplace and they never will. One attractive package on pretty stationary and letterhedd is werth 10 billions, pefektly, writin, job aplikashuns.


And yet, men line up to date the pretty girl, girls fawn over the hunky guy, books are judged by their covers, the car with the shiny mags sells... For that matter, nice looking people get hired over ugly and average-looking ones.

And actually, a well presented cv outperforms a poorly presented one. Printed on linen, watermarked bond, professionally typeset will give an inferior applicant a job over a slightly superior one.

Looks aren't everything.... But they matter way more than they should for almost everything in life. Life ain't fair, and the clever take advantage of that.


So if you owned a business, you would hire the less qualified person because his/her resume was on prettier paper? Yeah, good luck on that.

Yes, people fawn over good looking people. But unless that person has a good personality, people are usually only interested in sleeping with them, not having long meaningful relationships. Also, with that analogy, you're suggesting GW's business strategy is to recruit new players, burn them, and then go out and find more new players. Actually, now that I think about it, GW has been doing that. Problem is, they have an incredibly hard time finding new players because burned players talk and GW's reputation is beyond tarnished.
   
Made in us
Cosmic Joe





 keezus wrote:
I'd just like to point out that GW's IP isnt' as golden as you make it out to be anymore.

I remember when I first started in 40k in 2nd Ed. There were the broad strokes of the background but nothing was fleshed out. This let players "imagine" what things might have been like. You didn't know anything about the primarchs really, except their names. Lion El'Johnson, Leman Russ and Sanguinus were the only ones who had a smattering of background. On the Chaos side, only Angron, Mortarion, Horus and Magnus the Red had any major fluff. Back then, Fulgrim was just a name. The Horus Heresy was the most covered item, with a few pages devoted to it. Siege of Terra was a two page spread! Flight of the Eisenstein was covered in a paragraph! There was lots that was unknown and it let our imaginations run wild.

Then they put out the Chapter Approved articles detailing the legions. It was cool, but some of the lustre wore off. The Imperial Fists were transformed overnight from a super cool niche army (nobody wanted to paint the yellow!) who were the implacable defenders of the Imperial Palace to a bunch of self-mutilating rigid-thinkers led by overly stubborn, politically tone-deaf and tunnel visioned Rogal Dorn. They didn't even get good rules as compensation... Back then they got Sgt Lysander and BOLTER DRILL. I didn't want to know that the Alpha Legion was driven by a hydra sized inferiority complex.

Now pretty much every major event is mined dry and explicitly spelled out. There's not much that is left to the player imagination. I think that GW is strangling the fluff to death as hard as they're trying to squeeze money out of their withering customer base.

I wouldn't mind all that so much if the writing was actually good.



Also, check out my history blog: Minimum Wage Historian, a fun place to check out history that often falls between the couch cushions. 
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

@MW: In 3rd Edition, we did an Istvan megabattle. Sure we could do it again now, but now that there is -canon- fluff, it feels less that we are forging our own epic narrative than recreating a meaningless part of the established storyline.
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






 keezus wrote:
@MW: In 3rd Edition, we did an Istvan megabattle. Sure we could do it again now, but now that there is -canon- fluff, it feels less that we are forging our own epic narrative than recreating a meaningless part of the established storyline.
Considering that my army was Dark Angels: Fifth Company - Engineering 'Badgerwing'... I have to admit that I also like going off of the beaten track a bit. (My Vindicator was done up as a Demolitions and Vehicle Recovery tank, back when the Vindicator was a 'how to' article in White Dwarf.)

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






 MWHistorian wrote:
I wouldn't mind all that so much if the writing was actually good.


I'm not a big fan of their novels. They're just not my kind of fiction. These days, mostly, I like crowd-pleasing, entertaining novels that are well-written with nothing too deep, and no disturbing endings, and 40k books don't do that for me. However, their "future history" -- the chronicling of the past looking back from 40k is pretty cool.

There are also bits of 40k lore that lend itself better to future history two-liners, than a book. For instance, Maugan Ra defeating Hive Fleet Leviathan single-handedly is epic on a timeline. It leaves much to my imagination, a Phoenix Lord butchering endless waves of Tyranid, in the same way that it was cool to see the door close behind Summer Glau's character, River Tam, in the last fight scene, and then when it opens again, the endless reavers are just a pile of broken bodies.
   
Made in us
Stern Iron Priest with Thrall Bodyguard





Redondo Beach

i am a big fan of the novels...
i enjoy reading about the characters, and then setting out to recreate the feel of some moment from a novel in miniature form...
very inspirational for painting...

the move to limited edition hardbacks is not something i can get behind, but that just made my switch to digital a no-brainer...
same book content, at a lower price, and i don't have to wait for anything to clear customs...

@MWHistorian: i get that you don't rate GW's fiction writing, but how do you feel about the PP stuff???
are you a fan of their novels, and the sourcebook fiction???
i like both, personally, but they scratch completely different itches...

cheers
jah


Paint like ya got a pair!

Available for commissions.
 
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






One of my players has told me that Age of Sigmar plays like Mage Knight.

Sad thing - he meant that as a compliment, and really liked Mage Knight.

I don't know how close the similarity is - I haven't played Mage Knight in years.

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





West Michigan, deep in Whitebread, USA

 DalinCriid wrote:
 AegisGrimm wrote:
 jah-joshua wrote:
keep in mind, i was replying to triplegrim's line of, "And in all honesty, would anyone really purchase space marine models if there was no game to play with them?"


Some people like the hobby side much more than the game side. I live in BFE with absolutely no gaming group within 30-50 miles, have played about a half-dozen games of 40k since getting into miniatures with 2nd edition, but still have 6 different armies, ranging from Marines, to SoB, to Necrons, Eldar and even 4th edition Kroot Mercs.

If I even play soon, it will be 2nd edition with the wife or a buddy.


I dont ment to insult anybody, but if the hobby is more interesting for certain people than the actual playing and dice rolling why.... why dont just buy Revell, Tamiya and etc. kits and... you know, just paint minis rather than come to forums and complain about rules, prices and etc.


Because as others have said in my defense (thanks!) I want to paint minis that are part of one of my long-time favorite fictional universes (I believe for me it's 18 years, now). I gripe about the rules because I also like to paint functional armies for the mainstream rules governing games in those universes, when i can get the rare game in, but I find many of the rules involved to suck some of the fun out of the game, so I gripe about those.

The prices, well, who wants to see figures they think are really awesome and would be fun to paint, not to mention fit in with the army they are currently working on, become ever-increasingly expensive to buy? A single-sprue character for $25+? A 50% drop in the models in a box, but remaining the same price? The huge up to and over 100% price hikes from the same model in metal to Finecast (which was supposedly a material change due to the instability of the metal markets- though other companies seem to be doing just fine keeping their models in it)?

tl;dr

For example, Revell/Tamiya tanks are not Land Raiders. Those are part of a universe I love, but in the years since the modern kit has been out have had a price hike of around 100%, which I periodically feel is gripe-worthy. I am in love with Games Workshop, but holy Jesus since 2000 she's become more and more of an abusive girlfriend, and now seems to resent my existence, despite my helping to pay her bills for nearly 20 years.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/10 00:31:24




"By this point I'm convinced 100% that every single race in the 40k universe have somehow tapped into the ork ability to just have their tech work because they think it should."  
   
Made in jp
Longtime Dakkanaut





Gig Harbor, WA

 Talys wrote:
 MWHistorian wrote:
I wouldn't mind all that so much if the writing was actually good.


I'm not a big fan of their novels. They're just not my kind of fiction. These days, mostly, I like crowd-pleasing, entertaining novels that are well-written with nothing too deep, and no disturbing endings, and 40k books don't do that for me. However, their "future history" -- the chronicling of the past looking back from 40k is pretty cool.

There are also bits of 40k lore that lend itself better to future history two-liners, than a book. For instance, Maugan Ra defeating Hive Fleet Leviathan single-handedly is epic on a timeline. It leaves much to my imagination, a Phoenix Lord butchering endless waves of Tyranid, in the same way that it was cool to see the door close behind Summer Glau's character, River Tam, in the last fight scene, and then when it opens again, the endless reavers are just a pile of broken bodies.


GW just has seriously poor quality control on the writers it hires. Some of it is good, some of it is great, a lot of it is god awful.

For example, Revell/Tamiya tanks are not Land Raiders. Those are part of a universe I love, but in the years since the modern kit has been out have had a price hike of around 100%, which I periodically feel is gripe-worthy. I am in love with Games Workshop, but holy Jesus since 2000 she's become more and more of an abusive girlfriend, and now seems to resent my existence, despite my helping to pay her bills for nearly 20 years.


Sometimes you just gotta move on and find a new love.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/10 01:19:02


 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






 argonak wrote:
For example, Revell/Tamiya tanks are not Land Raiders. Those are part of a universe I love, but in the years since the modern kit has been out have had a price hike of around 100%, which I periodically feel is gripe-worthy. I am in love with Games Workshop, but holy Jesus since 2000 she's become more and more of an abusive girlfriend, and now seems to resent my existence, despite my helping to pay her bills for nearly 20 years.


Sometimes you just gotta move on and find a new love.


It would be much more likely for me if other companies made models like land raiders, drop pods, voidravens, night scythes and that kind of thing. Futuristic vehicles in plastic kits are really cool -- besides futuristic knights (Space marines) and a system that promotes large, futuristic armies -- a wide variety of futuristic vehicles are the biggest draw for me to 40k.

I have no idea why so few companies do it, to be honest. I'm sure there would be a big market for those models.
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

 Talys wrote:
 argonak wrote:
For example, Revell/Tamiya tanks are not Land Raiders. Those are part of a universe I love, but in the years since the modern kit has been out have had a price hike of around 100%, which I periodically feel is gripe-worthy. I am in love with Games Workshop, but holy Jesus since 2000 she's become more and more of an abusive girlfriend, and now seems to resent my existence, despite my helping to pay her bills for nearly 20 years.


Sometimes you just gotta move on and find a new love.


It would be much more likely for me if other companies made models like land raiders, drop pods, voidravens, night scythes and that kind of thing. Futuristic vehicles in plastic kits are really cool -- besides futuristic knights (Space marines) and a system that promotes large, futuristic armies -- a wide variety of futuristic vehicles are the biggest draw for me to 40k.

I have no idea why so few companies do it, to be honest. I'm sure there would be a big market for those models.


The big 4 in models

Anime/popular movies
Trains and rail ways
History
Cars and planes.

I doubt Sci Fi (outside of popular sci fi like Starwars etc) is probably not high on the popularity scale of modelers. Unless there is Sci Fi popular enough out there to do a huge range. Even then 40k style kits are very easy to assemble (half the fun gone) and very chunky compared to most models out there.

Maybe there is a market out there, but outside of wargaming I doubt it a bit.
   
Made in ca
Frenzied Berserker Terminator





Canada

destrucifier wrote:
The problem is that the fans think they're smarter than GW. They think they're smarter than everybody. This is a big part of why product lines like WHFB collapsed. The neckbeards scare away everybody who takes a casual interest with their overwhelming arrogance and pettiness.


Now they can have another go with AoS. The neckbeards I mean.



Gets along better with animals... Go figure. 
   
Made in au
Grizzled Space Wolves Great Wolf





 Swastakowey wrote:
 Talys wrote:
 argonak wrote:
For example, Revell/Tamiya tanks are not Land Raiders. Those are part of a universe I love, but in the years since the modern kit has been out have had a price hike of around 100%, which I periodically feel is gripe-worthy. I am in love with Games Workshop, but holy Jesus since 2000 she's become more and more of an abusive girlfriend, and now seems to resent my existence, despite my helping to pay her bills for nearly 20 years.


Sometimes you just gotta move on and find a new love.


It would be much more likely for me if other companies made models like land raiders, drop pods, voidravens, night scythes and that kind of thing. Futuristic vehicles in plastic kits are really cool -- besides futuristic knights (Space marines) and a system that promotes large, futuristic armies -- a wide variety of futuristic vehicles are the biggest draw for me to 40k.

I have no idea why so few companies do it, to be honest. I'm sure there would be a big market for those models.


The big 4 in models

Anime/popular movies
Trains and rail ways
History
Cars and planes.

I doubt Sci Fi (outside of popular sci fi like Starwars etc) is probably not high on the popularity scale of modelers. Unless there is Sci Fi popular enough out there to do a huge range. Even then 40k style kits are very easy to assemble (half the fun gone) and very chunky compared to most models out there.

Maybe there is a market out there, but outside of wargaming I doubt it a bit.
If I were to take a guess I'd assume it's because companies feel in the consumer base of people who like to spend 10's if not 100's of hours assembling and painting a kit, most of them wouldn't want to spend that time on unrealistically proportioned futuristic vehicles like 40k uses.

At a guess I'd say fine scale model cars and planes are probably a larger market than wargaming models (I'd be extremely surprised if they aren't, I pass more than a dozen shops where I can buy a Panzer before I hit a shop that sells a Land Raider ) and for the most part the companies that make plastic models of vehicles stick to real life ones, occasionally venturing in to movie vehicles and whatnot but almost never inventing their own models out of nothing.

I guess part of it comes down to the appeal of those things being strongly linked to the universe in which they exist and no one thinks inventing a universe just for the sake of making a few models of them is worth the effort.

I know if I wasn't already interested in the 40k universe I'd think a lot of the models were junky toys

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/10 02:15:44


 
   
Made in ca
Buttons Should Be Brass, Not Gold!






Soviet Kanukistan

 Talys wrote:
It would be much more likely for me if other companies made models like land raiders, drop pods, voidravens, night scythes and that kind of thing. Futuristic vehicles in plastic kits are really cool -- besides futuristic knights (Space marines) and a system that promotes large, futuristic armies -- a wide variety of futuristic vehicles are the biggest draw for me to 40k. I have no idea why so few companies do it, to be honest. I'm sure there would be a big market for those models.

Two points:

1. Most sci-fi vehicles are made to be non-scale display pieces. There are few games that use vehicles the same way that 40k does because of movement/armor issues at the scale the games are played.
2. Kits that are stylistically not compatible with your aesthetic preferences does not equal "do not exist"...

Spoiler:

Apart from the obligatory: Star Wars, Star Trek, Gundam, Terminator, Aliens, BSG... pretty much all the robot kits from Japan... Titanfall, Halo,







   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

You forgot




In before Talys makes some random spurious reason that's only pertinent to him as to why these don't count in 5...4...3...

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
 Swastakowey wrote:
 Talys wrote:
 argonak wrote:
For example, Revell/Tamiya tanks are not Land Raiders. Those are part of a universe I love, but in the years since the modern kit has been out have had a price hike of around 100%, which I periodically feel is gripe-worthy. I am in love with Games Workshop, but holy Jesus since 2000 she's become more and more of an abusive girlfriend, and now seems to resent my existence, despite my helping to pay her bills for nearly 20 years.


Sometimes you just gotta move on and find a new love.


It would be much more likely for me if other companies made models like land raiders, drop pods, voidravens, night scythes and that kind of thing. Futuristic vehicles in plastic kits are really cool -- besides futuristic knights (Space marines) and a system that promotes large, futuristic armies -- a wide variety of futuristic vehicles are the biggest draw for me to 40k.

I have no idea why so few companies do it, to be honest. I'm sure there would be a big market for those models.


The big 4 in models

Anime/popular movies
Trains and rail ways
History
Cars and planes.

I doubt Sci Fi (outside of popular sci fi like Starwars etc) is probably not high on the popularity scale of modelers. Unless there is Sci Fi popular enough out there to do a huge range. Even then 40k style kits are very easy to assemble (half the fun gone) and very chunky compared to most models out there.

Maybe there is a market out there, but outside of wargaming I doubt it a bit.
If I were to take a guess I'd assume it's because companies feel in the consumer base of people who like to spend 10's if not 100's of hours assembling and painting a kit, most of them wouldn't want to spend that time on unrealistically proportioned futuristic vehicles like 40k uses.

At a guess I'd say fine scale model cars and planes are probably a larger market than wargaming models (I'd be extremely surprised if they aren't, I pass more than a dozen shops where I can buy a Panzer before I hit a shop that sells a Land Raider ) and for the most part the companies that make plastic models of vehicles stick to real life ones, occasionally venturing in to movie vehicles and whatnot but almost never inventing their own models out of nothing.

I guess part of it comes down to the appeal of those things being strongly linked to the universe in which they exist and no one thinks inventing a universe just for the sake of making a few models of them.

I know if I wasn't already interested in the 40k universe I'd think a lot of the models were junky toys


I agree 100%

For example the car models appeal to people who:
Love cars
Love a car or 2
Love modeling and cars
Love doing custom paint jobs on car displays
Love doing custom paint jobs on car displays for bedrooms, shops or workshops

And the list goes on. We all know cars are far more popular than we can probably fathom. Makes sense to make model cars for that huge group of the world. Same with history. More people know/like the Tiger tank than people will ever like an X wing etc.

Maybe it is because Sci Fi does not have the technical side of things sorted or the deep history, stories and details behind it to keep people interested for long. You cannot make a model of a Land Raider that works beyond looking cool. Looking cool only lasts for so long. Take the land raider, we have very vague information on how it works, why it is the way it is or how it was developed. How much armour does it have? How long does it take to make? How many stories do we have of the tanks crew? How has it changed how Space Marines fight? What are it's draw backs? How does it perform non combat wise? What is it's operational range? What did crews do to the tanks to improve its use on the battle field? Does it have technical issues that never got addressed?

The amount of depth to a land raider is nothing compared to even the tanks we have next to no information about. How is the average person going to be interested in such a thing for long? It's only substance is it's appearance and that only goes so far. The Sci Fi would have to be deep and very well thought out to make a major line of model kits that people will care about decade after decade.
   
Made in au
Owns Whole Set of Skullz Techpriests






Versteckt in den Schatten deines Geistes.

 Azreal13 wrote:
In before Talys makes some random spurious reason that's only pertinent to him as to why these don't count in 5...4...3...


Don't care. Got mine.

Industrial Insanity - My Terrain Blog
"GW really needs to understand 'Less is more' when it comes to AoS." - Wha-Mu-077

 
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






Hey, I'm not saying that none exist. But there aren't a lot, and they aren't great for army-building, which is my thing.

Buy what you like! I know that I will, and for all your immense distaste for GW, they will continue to build creative models that guys like me will buy.

Not that I know what this has anything to do with the subject of the thread. Are we just continuing this as the obligatory 'hate on GW thread?' before it gets locked for being totally off topic too?

I can save you some time... non-GW models exist, Az thinks anyone who buys GW has no taste and low standards, HBMC can't (or won't) say anything substantive but likes short quips that doesn't contribute at all to the topic, and Talys will defend GW as a company that makes cool models that he likes and games he plays.

Edit -- just to keep it slightly on topic, HBMC thinks GW is incapable of (or unwilling to) doing anything intelligent and Talys thinks that GW is plenty intelligent by making stuff that appeal to its core customers, but could be more intelligent by appealing to more potential customers. Wheee.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/08/10 03:00:40


 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




 Talys wrote:
I can save you some time... non-GW models exist, Az thinks anyone who buys GW has no taste and low standards, HBMC can't (or won't) say anything substantive but likes short quips that doesn't contribute at all to the topic, and Talys will defend GW as a company that makes cool models that he likes and games he plays.

Edit -- just to keep it slightly on topic, HBMC thinks GW is incapable of (or unwilling to) doing anything intelligent and Talys thinks that GW is plenty intelligent by making stuff that appeal to its core customers, but could be more intelligent by appealing to more potential customers. Wheee.


lol.. you guys need to get a life.

Anyways to answer the question. They can't write a game for gak, but that doesn't mean they're not intelligent.

As much as I disliek them, of course GW is intelligent. They know how to milk every last buck out of their customers. Plus apparently they know how to get rid of the people they don't want as customers, too. As long as they have customers that are happy to give them their hard-earned money, sure they're smart.

As far as I am concerned, their products are grossly overpriced, because I see them as nothing more than expensive game tokens for a bad game. Now keep in mind that I don't like models >> at all << but I really enjoy PLAYING miniature wargames. Since all the people I play with insist on having painted models, I have to buy models and pay to get them painted to a decent quality so that I don't look like a turd.

Now if you think they're beautiful works of art and want to pay top dollar for them, whatever. I mean, people pay thousands of dollars to stick a baseball sweater on the wall or a painting of a bowl of fruit.

As to their pricing structure, they have it right. They're just pricing it at the highest price that the people who like their stuff will pay for it. Like no gak Sherlock, that's basic business. I wish they would increase the price of their products more so that more people would leave their game and come play other, better games ^^
   
Made in nz
Heroic Senior Officer




New Zealand

Marlov wrote:
 Talys wrote:
I can save you some time... non-GW models exist, Az thinks anyone who buys GW has no taste and low standards, HBMC can't (or won't) say anything substantive but likes short quips that doesn't contribute at all to the topic, and Talys will defend GW as a company that makes cool models that he likes and games he plays.

Edit -- just to keep it slightly on topic, HBMC thinks GW is incapable of (or unwilling to) doing anything intelligent and Talys thinks that GW is plenty intelligent by making stuff that appeal to its core customers, but could be more intelligent by appealing to more potential customers. Wheee.


lol.. you guys need to get a life.

Anyways to answer the question. They can't write a game for gak, but that doesn't mean they're not intelligent.

As much as I disliek them, of course GW is intelligent. They know how to milk every last buck out of their customers. Plus apparently they know how to get rid of the people they don't want as customers, too. As long as they have customers that are happy to give them their hard-earned money, sure they're smart.

As far as I am concerned, their products are grossly overpriced, because I see them as nothing more than expensive game tokens for a bad game. Now keep in mind that I don't like models >> at all << but I really enjoy PLAYING miniature wargames. Since all the people I play with insist on having painted models, I have to buy models and pay to get them painted to a decent quality so that I don't look like a turd.

Now if you think they're beautiful works of art and want to pay top dollar for them, whatever. I mean, people pay thousands of dollars to stick a baseball sweater on the wall or a painting of a bowl of fruit.

As to their pricing structure, they have it right. They're just pricing it at the highest price that the people who like their stuff will pay for it. Like no gak Sherlock, that's basic business. I wish they would increase the price of their products more so that more people would leave their game and come play other, better games ^^


I thought an intelligent business wants all people as customers... Everything GW does goes against that.

Judging by your "insight" you don't have much to do with running a business in your line of work.
   
Made in ca
Fixture of Dakka






Waaaaaaaagh. Okay, this is too much for me, lol... This has gone to the twilight zone.

@Marlov - without models, video games are so much better than tabletop games, aren't they? I don't agree with you, but this topic is/has gotten just too wierd for me anyhow. To anyone who disagrees with me, I'll just disagree without being disagreeable and go on my merry way.

@Swastakowey - I too think that "big tent" is better. You can't make everyone happy, for sure, but to make products that appeal to as many people as possible (and certainly try to retain your existing customers) seem intuitively the right way to do it. Though I've never run a quarter billion dollar business, so I'm willing to admit my ignorance on the subject

Going to paint muh models. Peace, all, and out for the night... good gaming (or painting!) to you, Marlov, Swastakowey, Az, HBMC, & Keezus.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/08/10 05:03:43


 
   
 
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