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Yoyoyo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points

It was discussed at length in a 50-60pg thread.

Yup, which was locked because of OT and circular discussions.

Ignatius wrote:Right, the Tanith 1st, Cadians, Mordians, Catachans, etc. etc. are badasses. All of the named Regiments are awesome, but are a tiny fraction of the Imperial Guard on the whole. The codex gives rules for fighting with the organization as a whole, not rules for these specific regiments.

On the contrary, Cadian regiments (or those founded by Cadian descendants) have been stated to make up a disproportionate amount of the Guard's strength in any given warzone.

You send your best to the warzones where they are needed. Cadia's a world that exports nothing but soldiers, so do you really think that they aren't going to be showing up everywhere? Catachan falls under the same thing, as does Mordia. The only real one that is going to be a "tiny fraction"(and by the time of "modern" 40k as well barring the vagueries of the Warp and time dilation effects, long dead and gone) are the Tanith 1st.

Where have you read that lasguns are shooting through power armor? Surely you mean piercing the eye slits on the marine helmets, not actually going through the ceramite.

To be fair the eye slits are not the only weak point. The neck, inside of the elbows, armpits, pelvic region and the back of the knees are all said to be weak points as well since they are that ribbed joint material we see on the models.

Guardsmen should work on an exponential scale. The more you have, the more effective the whole is.

You've just given me a thought...

Maybe Orders should work like Canticles of the Omnissiah. The more units you have on the field that have "Voice of Command", the more effective the Orders are?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

umm... Have you seen Sororitas lately?

Baroque armor intended to exaggerate the feminine characteristics of the wearer is not the same as practical, mass-produced body armor.

Now, let's get back on topic.

There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points:
1) Tanks. They're too expensive for what they are in 7th edition.
2) Infantry. They're too weak, even for what they are meant to be, to reliably be dependent upon.
3) Allies. They're too much of a crutch to really discuss what's wrong with the Guard without going into territory where other players immediately jump in with "But you need to just ally in X/Y/Z".

Aye, this is pretty much what it boils down to. I went through that thread and gave my opinions on general functionality and cost changes I thought would be appropriate.

Upon reflection, I think we just fundamentally have a scale issue with 40k trying more and more to be Epic. Even if IG get the pricing cuts they really should get, how much more can IG armies stuff in before they literally run completely out of deployment zone space, and how long will games have to take with 20 tanks and 4x as much infantry in a 2k army

Maybe we should get a unique deployment method; breaking our army into "waves" that arrive on designated turn numbers?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Ignatius wrote:Right, the Tanith 1st, Cadians, Mordians, Catachans, etc. etc. are badasses. All of the named Regiments are awesome, but are a tiny fraction of the Imperial Guard on the whole. The codex gives rules for fighting with the organization as a whole, not rules for these specific regiments.

On the contrary, Cadian regiments (or those founded by Cadian descendants) have been stated to make up a disproportionate amount of the Guard's strength in any given warzone.

You send your best to the warzones where they are needed. Cadia's a world that exports nothing but soldiers, so do you really think that they aren't going to be showing up everywhere? Catachan falls under the same thing, as does Mordia. The only real one that is going to be a "tiny fraction"(and by the time of "modern" 40k as well barring the vagueries of the Warp and time dilation effects, long dead and gone) are the Tanith 1st.

I know the Cadians crank out soldiers like no other, and I know they can sometimes be found in huge numbers in warzones, but I didn't know they make up disproportionate amounts in "any" given warzone. I always assumed that the stories to feature battles where there are large amounts of well known regiments than those from "Planet Blue Blue Shiny Ball 12".

Where have you read that lasguns are shooting through power armor? Surely you mean piercing the eye slits on the marine helmets, not actually going through the ceramite.

To be fair the eye slits are not the only weak point. The neck, inside of the elbows, armpits, pelvic region and the back of the knees are all said to be weak points as well since they are that ribbed joint material we see on the models.

Don't take the wind out of my sails when I'm trying to stick it to someone

Guardsmen should work on an exponential scale. The more you have, the more effective the whole is.

You've just given me a thought...

Maybe Orders should work like Canticles of the Omnissiah. The more units you have on the field that have "Voice of Command", the more effective the Orders are?

Sure that could work, and is a lot like what I am thinking. There could even be a couple. Where the "Voice of Command" idea you have reflects a competent and distinct command structure, making the force as a whole better. And perhaps another almost like the Orks Mob Rule, where if there are enough bodies around they don't particularly care about things like "leadership". After all, humans are social creatures and can be convinced to do just about anything given enough people to follow.

Id like to know where the actual fluff for Cadians being the main force of the Guard is... (or their descendants) because I have yet to read it anywhere but online.

Not "the main force of the Guard", but a disproportionate number.

It is not a single piece of fluff, but rather a collation of pieces. There was mention in various sources(Uplifting Primer and a few others) that Cadian equipment and training is used on worlds settled by Cadian veterans that have mustered out, hence the statement I made.

I was very certain this happens to all guard units who do that... not just cadians.

In other words... you made an assumption...

 Kanluwen wrote:

Maybe we should get a unique deployment method; breaking our army into "waves" that arrive on designated turn numbers?

Perhaps, not sure how that could work but maybe? Another option might be to introduce a recycling mechanism ("send in the next wave"). Just a basic quick though exercise off the top of my head, but maybe something like "every time a unit is killed, roll a D6, return it to play the following turn arriving as if from reserve" or have a "pool" of points you can use to return stuff to play as the game goes on or something.

 Ignatius wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

umm... Have you seen Sororitas lately?

Baroque armor intended to exaggerate the feminine characteristics of the wearer is not the same as practical, mass-produced body armor.

Now, let's get back on topic.

There's a ton of different ideas about what's "wrong" with the Guard but I think it can be boiled down to 3 main talking points:
1) Tanks. They're too expensive for what they are in 7th edition.
2) Infantry. They're too weak, even for what they are meant to be, to reliably be dependent upon.
3) Allies. They're too much of a crutch to really discuss what's wrong with the Guard without going into territory where other players immediately jump in with "But you need to just ally in X/Y/Z".

If we could go from a Gaunts Ghosts perspective, guard are badasses. Lasguns arent S3 any where in the fluff. Ive read plenty of times where they shoot through power armour(!).

Tanks are bread to the infantrymans butter. None of those tanks are worth the cost

Right, the Tanith 1st, Cadians, Mordians, Catachans, etc. etc. are badasses. All of the named Regiments are awesome, but are a tiny fraction of the Imperial Guard on the whole. The codex gives rules for fighting with the organization as a whole, not rules for these specific regiments.

Where have you read that lasguns are shooting through power armor? Surely you mean piercing the eye slits on the marine helmets, not actually going through the ceramite.

Guardsmen should work on an exponential scale. The more you have, the more effective the whole is.

A lasgun liquidized the helmet of a CSM in the first part of Gaunts Ghosts

It was a hot-shot round, and he was explicitly not wearing a helmet. Assuming you're referring to First and Only.

 Swastakowey wrote:
I was very certain this happens to all guard units who do that... not just cadians.

In other words... you made an assumption...

Er no. I made an educated inference.

If you want the thing which really supports my inference?

The 13th Black Crusade: The grievous history of Abaddon's most terrible invasion, as written by one who saw it all unfold",p.95 wrote:
Soldiers, I speak to you to tell you to keep faith with the God-Emperor. We have a sacred duty greater than any of us. We are Cadians, we bar the gate to hell, if it is breached, we will seal it.

Whereever you are, recruit, recruit and train. Seek out pious men and bring them under your colours. While the Shock Troops march toward Cadia hope remains. Know that we will never cease the fight while our world lies desecrated and burned. March on my soldiers, march on til we are together again, tomorrow, on Cadia.

-Ursukar E. Creed, Lord Castellan of Cadia

Written by Andy Hoare and published by Black Library in 2004. It has been mentioned a few times as being given out to authors writing about the Cadians.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It was a hot-shot round, and he was explicitly not wearing a helmet. Assuming you're referring to First and Only.

If we're talking about "First and Only", there is actually a bit where a Vitrian Dragoon cranks the power of his Lasgun up to the highest charge setting and slags the head of an Iron Warriors Terminator.

But it basically depletes the entirety of an unused power cell and screws with the gun's internals.

That in no way at all implies cadians are the majority of soldiers (be it cadian in training or cadian in gear). If the cadians fight on 1 planet a decade, the passage you quoted doesn't change.

I think you are now just making stuff up.

Jehovahs witnesses do exactly what that passage said but they do not make up a majority of anything...

Assumptions again.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
It was a hot-shot round, and he was explicitly not wearing a helmet. Assuming you're referring to First and Only.

The hotshot round decapitated a helmeted CSM. But it was fired from a longlas at maximum point blank range.

 Swastakowey wrote:
That in no way at all implies cadians are the majority of soldiers (be it cadian in training or cadian in gear). If the cadians fight on 1 planet a decade, the passage you quoted doesn't change.

I think you are now just making stuff up.

That's fine. You are more than welcome to think that.

Jehovahs witnesses do exactly what that passage said but they do not make up a majority of anything...

Assumptions again.

You're using the term wrong. An "assumption" is made with no proof or evidence for one's assertions.

Just because you do not agree with my assertions does not mean that they are false.
The term you are looking for here is "supposition", which is an assumption made from known facts.

The "known facts" are that if we look at any of the force orgs for major battles that GW has published, Cadians are pretty much always listed.
Additionally we know that when Regiments are raised on new worlds, they will take the name of those worlds rather than the name of the regiments that settled on the world. So a world which was settled by mustered out Cadians would not be called a "Cadian Shock Troop" regiment but would take the name of their world and use similar equipment/training.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
That in no way at all implies cadians are the majority of soldiers (be it cadian in training or cadian in gear). If the cadians fight on 1 planet a decade, the passage you quoted doesn't change.

I think you are now just making stuff up.

That's fine. You are more than welcome to think that.

Jehovahs witnesses do exactly what that passage said but they do not make up a majority of anything...

Assumptions again.

You're using the term wrong. An "assumption" is made with no proof or evidence for one's assertions.

Just because you do not agree with my assertions does not mean that they are false.
The term you are looking for here is "supposition", which is an assumption made from known facts.

The "known facts" are that if we look at any of the force orgs for major battles that GW has published, Cadians are pretty much always listed.
Additionally we know that when Regiments are raised on new worlds, they will take the name of those worlds rather than the name of the regiments that settled on the world. So a world which was settled by mustered out Cadians would not be called a "Cadian Shock Troop" regiment but would take the name of their world and use similar equipment/training.

You have no proof though. You have none at all... so yes it is an assumption. An educated guess would mean somewhere it has been hinted that Cadians (in gear or flesh) make up the majority of fighting forces. This has never been hinted by GW. Feel free to prove me wrong there (so far you have not). Without the fact your assumption stays assumption.

Oh ok, so because GW likes Cadians it's safe to assume they make up most of the Guard? By that logic everything in the imperium (or at least 99.99%) are white males no matter their planet of origin.

As I said, a world settled by Mordians would do the same thing the Cadians would, fashion their military in a similar manner. By your logic Mordians would also make up the majority of the Imperial Guard?

Please actually find something to back up your statement, because there is a lot of fluff talking about how diverse and varied the imperial guard is... but none saying they are mostly Cadian in style.

Codex: Imperial Guard 3rd edition, 2nd Codex wrote:
Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.

So yeah. I'm sorry I don't have the remainder of the information I could have(White Dwarfs from the time) handy, but I think we've diverted this enough. You're more than welcome to believe what you like, but by that same vein until you can produce evidence to the contrary I'm sticking with what I said.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Codex: Imperial Guard 3rd edition, 2nd Codex wrote:
Such is the reputation of the Cadian Shock Troops that many other regiments mimic their appearance, although their doctrines may differ.

So yeah. I'm sorry I don't have the remainder of the information I could have(White Dwarfs from the time) handy, but I think we've diverted this enough. You're more than welcome to believe what you like, but by that same vein until you can produce evidence to the contrary I'm sticking with what I said.

Thats what you should have posted the first time. I have only seen this online, I must have missed this in my 3rd ed codex.

It does say many though, not disproportionate. Huge difference. There are many Americans for example, but they Americans are not a disproportionate number of the world.

Even by your evidence disproportionate does not come into the equation.

 Swastakowey wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
That in no way at all implies cadians are the majority of soldiers (be it cadian in training or cadian in gear). If the cadians fight on 1 planet a decade, the passage you quoted doesn't change.

I think you are now just making stuff up.

That's fine. You are more than welcome to think that.

Jehovahs witnesses do exactly what that passage said but they do not make up a majority of anything...

Assumptions again.

You're using the term wrong. An "assumption" is made with no proof or evidence for one's assertions.

Just because you do not agree with my assertions does not mean that they are false.
The term you are looking for here is "supposition", which is an assumption made from known facts.

The "known facts" are that if we look at any of the force orgs for major battles that GW has published, Cadians are pretty much always listed.
Additionally we know that when Regiments are raised on new worlds, they will take the name of those worlds rather than the name of the regiments that settled on the world. So a world which was settled by mustered out Cadians would not be called a "Cadian Shock Troop" regiment but would take the name of their world and use similar equipment/training.

You have no proof though. You have none at all... so yes it is an assumption. An educated guess would mean somewhere it has been hinted that Cadians (in gear or flesh) make up the majority of fighting forces. This has never been hinted by GW. Feel free to prove me wrong there (so far you have not). Without the fact your assumption stays assumption.

Oh ok, so because GW likes Cadians it's safe to assume they make up most of the Guard? By that logic everything in the imperium (or at least 99.99%) are white males no matter their planet of origin.

As I said, a world settled by Mordians would do the same thing the Cadians would, fashion their military in a similar manner. By your logic Mordians would also make up the majority of the Imperial Guard?

Please actually find something to back up your statement, because there is a lot of fluff talking about how diverse and varied the imperial guard is... but none saying they are mostly Cadian in style.

We could use the same logic to say the Ultrasmurfs are a majority of the Space marines... oh wait... they are

 Kanluwen wrote:
locked because of OT and circular discussions

Not much has changed

GW will almost certainly in the new codex address this issue, going by precedent, by reworking the orders system, not be changing lasgun or guardsman statlines.

Thats exactly what they did with the marines codex (tactical doctrines) and with Daemonkin and Mechanicus/Skitarii, to some extent with Eldar and Necrons. Army- or formation-wide benefits that are either static (the Eldar 6" run thing, Move through Cover etc. for Necrons) or triggered by player decision (doctrines, canticles, blood tithe benefits).

What Guard will likely get is thus some kind of improved orders system akin to Marine tactical/assault/devastator doctrines..

Actually Cadia could provide a completely disproportionate number of guardsmen, but they'd still make up only a tiny fraction of a percentage of the Imperial Guard. It's a question of scale - the galaxy is BIG! Like, REALLY big! A disproportionate number is still a drop in the ocean when you talk about the whole of the Imperial Guard.

Their prominence in the fluff is mainly due to the importance of the Cadian Gate.

Range 24" / Str 3 / Ap - / Salvo 2/3

FRFSRF adds +1 to both salvo values.

I would dig lasguns like this!

Personally I like the structure of infantry platoons but man do I wish was there was more incentives to take heavy weapon squads or even special weapon squads. I could see HWS getting a shrouded or stealth type rule that kicks in after they've set still "Entrenched Positions", let them share it if infantry squads that buy them for your traditional "hold the line" guard.

For SWS I could see them getting "Weapon familiarity" aka
•torrent flamers
•reroll 1s plasma but still gets hot on a miss
•snipers reroll hits with a "spotter/las guardsman" present
•grenade launchers shred
•demo charges scatters half *he practiced throwing*
I don't see any of these being OP, and fairly straight and to the point While adding "character" to them.

Of course there are other things like, deathridering or finally killing off rough riders, pushing the range of stormies out to 24", increase in hull points and/or return of lumbering behemoth for russes that I'd like to see along with price drops to bring guard into a nicer place. Overall though, I think IG has alot of character but vocal folks keep wanting XYZ to make "extra special regiment" or make them more like modern military. While I understand the appeal of such a idea, it doesn't fit with the fluff often times, the exceptional regiments are often just that, exceptions to a largely "standardized" force that uses archaic and very brutal tactics, for a regime that values the rifle in their hands and victory more than the soldier's life.

Give me a good solid codex, with 3-5 nifty formations and stick and a extra special excess in a well composed suppliment/s and I'll be happy.

I'm not gonna get knightworlder regiments anyways

Overall though, I think IG has alot of character but vocal folks keep wanting XYZ to make "extra special regiment" or make them more like modern military. While I understand the appeal of such a idea, it doesn't fit with the fluff often times, the exceptional regiments are often just that, exceptions to a largely "standardized" force that uses archaic and very brutal tactics, for a regime that values the rifle in their hands and victory more than the soldier's life.

There is really no standard to the guard though. Regiments are drawn from all different kinds of planets and people. Guardsmen range from criminals, mutants, abhumans, undesirables, conscripts, pdf veterans, farmers, etc. Equipment given to the guardsmen is largely dependent on the world where they are drawn from. Some regiments aren't even given modern weaponry and are left equipped with stone weapons and clubs. Other regiments may even have equipment that rivals or beats that of storm troopers. Some regiments are more apt at fighting in the streets (hive gangers), and others may be better suited to fighting in the trees (tanith). The only thing that is universally standardized within the guard is that #1 there are guardsmen and #2 that they serve the emperor. To have a codex that standardizes guard to such a degree DOES take away the character of the guard. I cannot actually represent my light infantry lrrp / aircav regiment on the tabletop as the guard has been relegated to line infantry and combined arms tactics.

The munitorium may or may not value the rifle more than the man, but in order for that to be represented, the rifle itself would need to actually be more useful than the wounds that its carrier posses.

It almost sounds like Renegades without any of the chaos options would still fare better competitively than imperial guard, is that right?

Intercessor wrote:
It almost sounds like Renegades without any of the chaos options would still fare better competitively than imperial guard, is that right?

At this stage, pretty much.

 Sledgehammer wrote:

Overall though, I think IG has alot of character but vocal folks keep wanting XYZ to make "extra special regiment" or make them more like modern military. While I understand the appeal of such a idea, it doesn't fit with the fluff often times, the exceptional regiments are often just that, exceptions to a largely "standardized" force that uses archaic and very brutal tactics, for a regime that values the rifle in their hands and victory more than the soldier's life.

There is really no standard to the guard though. Regiments are drawn from all different kinds of planets and people. Guardsmen range from criminals, mutants, abhumans, undesirables, conscripts, pdf veterans, farmers, etc. Equipment given to the guardsmen is largely dependent on the world where they are drawn from. Some regiments aren't even given modern weaponry and are left equipped with stone weapons and clubs. Other regiments may even have equipment that rivals or beats that of storm troopers. Some regiments are more apt at fighting in the streets (hive gangers), and others may be better suited to fighting in the trees (tanith). The only thing that is universally standardized within the guard is that #1 there are guardsmen and #2 that they serve the emperor. To have a codex that standardizes guard to such a degree DOES take away the character of the guard. I cannot actually represent my light infantry lrrp / aircav regiment on the tabletop as the guard has been relegated to line infantry and combined arms tactics.

The munitorium may or may not value the rifle more than the man, but in order for that to be represented, the rifle itself would need to actually be more useful than the wounds that its carrier posses.

Exactly this.

Known regiments are:

-Cadia: A force of shocktroopers. Highly trained and with standardized equipment. Specialize in fighting Chaos (who needs GK's anyway?), and give solid beatings to pretty much everything else. Akin to the British military if it had the production capacity of the USA.

-Catachan: Jungle fighters. It's Rambo taken up to eleventy-thousand. Have a "more explosives = more better" attitude.

-Tallarn Desert Raiders: Lawrence of Arabia, crossed with organised Taliban.

-Steel Legion: Post-apocalyptic mechanized regiment. Specialize in hostile environs and Ork warfare.

-Death Korps of Kreig: WW1 if it reached the nuclear age, and just continued forever.

-Moridian Iron Guard: British colonial powers with layzors.

-Vostroyan First Borns: I can't remember much about them, but they take the first born son of every family on Vostroya, and give them ornately carved, gold-plated, and highly effective guns.

-Vostroyan First Borns: I can't remember much about them, but they take the first born son of every family on Vostroya, and give them ornately carved, gold-plated, and highly effective guns.

They are like Tsarist Russians with tanks and laser guns. They even wear the big bear-skin hats. Or, alternately, an idealized version of WW2 Soviet soldiers.

Aren't WW2 Soviets Valhallans?

That would be... exceptionally ill-toned of GW, if so, given the historic conflicts between the Nordic nations and Russia.

And yet...

A Vostroyan, by comparison:

Warning, image is huge.

Image = not so huge

... I'm on a 48" HDTV @1920x1080 and the image takes up over half the vertical view... those on smaller screens may find the experience less-than-ideal.