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 the_Armyman wrote:
Okay, I'll ask again: what physical or mental limitation allows one to assemble little plastic figures but not hold a paintbrush? For that matter, what financial limitation allows one to purchase wargaming models, but not paint and brushes?

I already named dysgraphia. Hand tremors. Injuries that cause pain when focused over a desk for any great time.

We both know that a great many of the kits lock into place whilst being assembled. Apart from resin, it's surprisingly difficult to put the kits together entirely wrong if you do it in the right order.

I don't know what you're trying to prove, or why, but it's extremely tedious.

Yes some people over exaggerate. I know a great many who do not.

Also, if we're talking about people who are physically unable to paint then it's pretty likely that their assembly isn't going to be the highest quality. It's very easy to put plastic kits together if you aren't too concerned about precise details like mold line removal or conversions, and it's quick enough that it's probably not too hard to get someone to do it for you at that level. I doubt there are very many people making beautiful professional-level conversions and then saying "I can't paint this".

I personally love my painted models, and will only field an unpainted one if I really need to. I don't mind how painted my opponent's army is (Though it is way cooler when theirs is painted too). But personally I paint everything that's going on the table.


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 the_Armyman wrote:
Okay, I'll ask again: what physical or mental limitation allows one to assemble little plastic figures but not hold a paintbrush? For that matter, what financial limitation allows one to purchase wargaming models, but not paint and brushes?

Well, If you look at each paint pot being 2.5 quid, and good brushes being up to 10, you can actually buy something like a Tactical Squad with the same money one would spend on a decent range of paints.

TBH, I don't bother removing mold lines, and apart from some minor unsteadiness and clumsiness resulting in dropped parts, I don't have a physical or mental problem building models. I do take a pair of clippers to the vents and more serious flash though.

 Buttery Commissar wrote:
A guy local to me raised what I consider a very valid point recently.
What about players with disabilities, minor or severe?

If a player buys a £75 starter set, the £60 rules and barely has enough physical coordination to assemble the models, never mind paint them (dysgraphia, physical disabilities, some forms of back and neck injury), what are their options if we would only allow painted figures?

Pay a studio.
Find a friend capable of painting for them.
Be refused games.

It's not an unusual scenario. I have friends who physically cannot paint, and if they did, half of you would be wincing or laughing at their efforts.
But they want to play, and they should not have to justify or pay extra to do so.

I've got a disability, I have colour vision defect. It's not notifiable though there are various professions I am barred from because of it.

It doesn't stop me painting, just some of my models are not well received.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Okay, I'll ask again: what physical or mental limitation allows one to assemble little plastic figures but not hold a paintbrush? For that matter, what financial limitation allows one to purchase wargaming models, but not paint and brushes?

Well, If you look at each paint pot being 2.5 quid, and good brushes being up to 10, you can actually buy something like a Tactical Squad with the same money one would spend on a decent range of paints.

When I first started playing at age 13, it took me 3 months to save up my allowance enough to get a box of Dire Avengers. I used the Testors paints and brushes that I already had for quite a while.

I didn't have a Codex for another three months, nor did I ever own the main rulebook for the entire edition (it was Third, if you were wondering).

 the_Armyman wrote:
Okay, I'll ask again: what physical or mental limitation allows one to assemble little plastic figures but not hold a paintbrush??

My girlfriend can't paint much, but still plays a bit. She doesn't have a condition with a technical name as the doctors have never been able to figure out what exactly is wrong with her, and they've been trying for nearly 30 years.

If she focuses too hard on trying to observe tiny details on small things, it gives her headaches which can progress into vertigo attacks. She can spend days laid up doing little more than sleeping, drinking water, and crawling from the bed to the bathroom so that she can puke in the toilet; as getting up to walk will result in her puking on the floor. When she does paint (which she does every now and again) she can spend maybe half an hour on it every few days but will still get a headache. And she plays nids.. So she has a couple of painted gaunts, but little else.

I myself have some lower back pain and also don't have an ideal painting location. So whilst I can paint for much longer stretches of time (a couple of hours) it comes at the cost of physical pain and discomfort which will persist for a substantial amount of time afterwards. I'm also something of a perfectionist, despite my painting not being anything amazing. So I'll spend time highlighting the rises in clothing, skin, and boots; lightly weathering every gun, grenade, and melee weapon. I have an army which has about 150 'cannon fodder' models in my troop slots, another 50+ to man stationary arty pieces, and then between 10-20 semi-elite fodder which is an escort for my HQ units.

No one who didn't play the old monkey skaven has a right to say paint your army..... I still cry at night.

things to glue 2 part chest/ waist/ 2 arms /tail/ to base /shield
Then paint 200+ who all look so much the same after the first 50 you are not sure if it is a endless nightmare or you died somewhere in between. talk about a limbo

My armies are typically painted well, only thing is that most of my troops are not based. Purely personal preference there.

I don't really have a problem fighting against unpainted armies. I do recommend that people prime/spray paint their armies with their preferred base color, even without details filled in the one color does add a lot more character to a force than unpainted plastic. For example I have a Tau opponent, his painted forces feature a winter pattern, anything he fields that isn't fully painted is typically primed white. I feel that just this priming alone adds a lot to the force, adding a surprising amount of character.

Again though, I don't really have any issues with unpainted. When I make the above recommendation I do it in a friendly manner, I don't put anybody's stuff down or anything like that.

things to glue 2 part chest/ waist/ 2 arms /tail/ to base /shield
Then paint 200+ who all look so much the same after the first 50 you are not sure if it is a endless nightmare or you died somewhere in between. talk about a limbo

Lol! I know a bit of that pain. I play Imperial Guard, and frankly, the basic foot soldier can get to be quite boring!

Elemental wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Okay, I'll ask again: what physical or mental limitation allows one to assemble little plastic figures but not hold a paintbrush?

Colour-blindness immediately springs to mind.

Colorblind people are not blind in the strictest sense. Plenty of colorblind people dress themselves and don't look like a mismatched mess. They also have friends or family they can ask if they question their own color choices. Not an excuse.

Buttery Commissar wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
Okay, I'll ask again: what physical or mental limitation allows one to assemble little plastic figures but not hold a paintbrush? For that matter, what financial limitation allows one to purchase wargaming models, but not paint and brushes?

I already named dysgraphia. Hand tremors. Injuries that cause pain when focused over a desk for any great time.

One of my best friends' hands shake terribly. He still manages to put three colors on his minis. You do not need to be bent over a table in an uncomfortable position to paint. Three colors and a wash is pretty easy to achieve from half an arm's length away. People with these disabilities have to compromise and realize that eyes and lenses might be a bit out of their reach. Not an excuse.

We both know that a great many of the kits lock into place whilst being assembled. Apart from resin, it's surprisingly difficult to put the kits together entirely wrong if you do it in the right order.

Some pieces lock into place like torsos. Arms are often a different story and can be a little challenging for people with good eyesight and steady hands. It's not a hobby for everyone. Again, if you can put them together, you can slop paint on them. Not an excuse.

I don't know what you're trying to prove, or why, but it's extremely tedious.

I'm sorry this discussion is so tiring for you, dear. I'm "trying to prove" that those with disabilities rarely make as many excuses for themselves as others who claim to have their best interests in mind.

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 the_Armyman wrote:
Okay, I'll ask again: what physical or mental limitation allows one to assemble little plastic figures but not hold a paintbrush? For that matter, what financial limitation allows one to purchase wargaming models, but not paint and brushes?

Well, If you look at each paint pot being 2.5 quid, and good brushes being up to 10, you can actually buy something like a Tactical Squad with the same money one would spend on a decent range of paints.

 the_Armyman wrote:


You can get a set of brushes and a dozen pots of craft paint at most craft stores for less than $20. You don't need to buy GW paints and tools, and the larger pots of craft paints will last a long time if not wasted. Not an excuse.

So I can either buy paint, or two Crisis Suits on Ebay for 20$, I wonder which is more beneficial to a new player on a budget trying to play a game of 40k, some aesthetic things for the army, or things in the army itself.

 Tinkrr wrote:
So I can either buy paint, or two Crisis Suits on Ebay for 20$, I wonder which is more beneficial to a new player on a budget trying to play a game of 40k, some aesthetic things for the army, or things in the army itself.

The things to finish their models. They can always play smaller games, but putting off painting just means more work to do when they finally get around to it and/or fewer people willing to play against them.


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 the_Armyman wrote:
Again, if you can put them together, you can slop paint on them.

This is blatantly false. Assembling models is much easier than painting them, unless by "slop paint on them" you literally mean "dip them in a jar of paint". Painting to even a minimal standard requires a lot more focus and fine control than gluing the parts together.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
So I can either buy paint, or two Crisis Suits on Ebay for 20$, I wonder which is more beneficial to a new player on a budget trying to play a game of 40k, some aesthetic things for the army, or things in the army itself.

The things to finish their models. They can always play smaller games, but putting off painting just means more work to do when they finally get around to it and/or fewer people willing to play against them.

What if people don't want to play smaller games? Not the person with the unpainted army, but the people around them, or they want to play in tournaments which have set point limits?

I personally prefer painted armies, but I think it's something extra, like a skin in a MOBA, you need to get the base number of champions first before you go out and buy luxury aesthetics.

 Tinkrr wrote:
What if people don't want to play smaller games? Not the person with the unpainted army, but the people around them, or they want to play in tournaments which have set point limits?

Then play a team game to add up to the required points, borrow models, etc. And if people genuinely never want to play anything but tournament practice the hypothetical poor player is screwed anyway. They can't afford to keep up with tournament gaming so they're going to lose every game by huge margins. At least if they put some effort into painting their models they'll have a better experience when they find a new group to play with.

I actually really enjoy playing against unfinished armies. I played my daemons against a30k mechanicum army today. I had all my models very nicely painted (in my own opinion), except for a finecast Bloodthirster and LoC that are stand ins until I get my new model built a painted and a squad of flamers and screamers about 80% done. He had 40 very nicely painted tech thrall an unprimed arch something boss and large robots and small treaded robots unprimed. One of the large robots was just legs and half the treaded ones had only the gun arms instead of both.

It's much easier to talk specifics about the other aspects of the hobby, like modeling and painting, when unfinished models are being used.

I was much happier playing the larger game with the units we wanted and seeing both our armies as a work in progress is great. I'm excited to show up next time with an epic looking Bloodthirster worthy in appearance of the dozens of skulls he reaped in the last two games.

 Peregrine wrote:

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 the_Armyman wrote:
Again, if you can put them together, you can slop paint on them.

This is blatantly false. Assembling models is much easier than painting them, unless by "slop paint on them" you literally mean "dip them in a jar of paint". Painting to even a minimal standard requires a lot more focus and fine control than gluing the parts together.

A cadian model can literally be three colors (black, green, flesh) and a wash, and assuming you really hate painting, shouldn't take more than 20-30 minutes to paint (minus drying time). Chaos demons, space marines, eldar guardians, and fire warriors are equally easy with basic techniques. If I'm clipping one of those minis from a sprue, making a small effort to remove visible mold lines, and then glue those parts together, it takes 10-15 minutes. Are we really debating how difficult the whole process is if done to basic standards? We're mincing words over minutes?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
In case people missed my original post: I don't care if you paint your mins or not. It's not my time and it's not my money. What I take exception to are all the reasons and excuses people make for not doing it. Just be honest, say you don't care to paint, and be done with it!

 the_Armyman wrote:
A cadian model can literally be three colors (black, green, flesh) and a wash, and assuming you really hate painting, shouldn't take more than 20-30 minutes to paint (minus drying time). Chaos demons, space marines, eldar guardians, and fire warriors are equally easy with basic techniques. If I'm clipping one of those minis from a sprue, making a small effort to remove visible mold lines, and then glue those parts together, it takes 10-15 minutes. Are we really debating how difficult the whole process is if done to basic standards? We're mincing words over minutes?

Oh FFS, it's that easy for people with no disabilities that get in the way of painting. Did you forget the context of the statement I was objecting to?

 Peregrine wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
A cadian model can literally be three colors (black, green, flesh) and a wash, and assuming you really hate painting, shouldn't take more than 20-30 minutes to paint (minus drying time). Chaos demons, space marines, eldar guardians, and fire warriors are equally easy with basic techniques. If I'm clipping one of those minis from a sprue, making a small effort to remove visible mold lines, and then glue those parts together, it takes 10-15 minutes. Are we really debating how difficult the whole process is if done to basic standards? We're mincing words over minutes?

Oh FFS, it's that easy for people with no disabilities that get in the way of painting. Did you forget the context of the statement I was objecting to?

Nope, I read you loud and clear. I do not see people in wheelchairs or people with carpal tunnel or people with serious cognitive disorders at my FLGS, local conventions, or tourneys. Where they exist in our hobby, they are a tiny minority. No one is saying the person with MS is lazy for not painting his minis. I'm just trying to reconcile the number of people who don't paint their minis against this small minority of disabled gamers.

Or are you saying our hobby attracts a disproportionate amount of people with disabilities?

 the_Armyman wrote:


Or are you saying our hobby attracts a disproportionate amount of people with disabilities?

Actually yes, table top games as a whole attract more disabled people than other hobbies as a whole. The reason for this being that most of them are turn based so they don't have the same issues as video games or hobbies that require either quick or precise reaction times. More so, in a table top game it's possible to have an assistant do certain things for you, that you might not be able to do yourself, without them giving you a tactical or strategic advantage, unlike in a large portion of all other competitive activities.

The format is simply more beneficial to people with physical disability than most other things.

 the_Armyman wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
A cadian model can literally be three colors (black, green, flesh) and a wash, and assuming you really hate painting, shouldn't take more than 20-30 minutes to paint (minus drying time). Chaos demons, space marines, eldar guardians, and fire warriors are equally easy with basic techniques. If I'm clipping one of those minis from a sprue, making a small effort to remove visible mold lines, and then glue those parts together, it takes 10-15 minutes. Are we really debating how difficult the whole process is if done to basic standards? We're mincing words over minutes?

Oh FFS, it's that easy for people with no disabilities that get in the way of painting. Did you forget the context of the statement I was objecting to?

Nope, I read you loud and clear. I do not see people in wheelchairs or people with carpal tunnel or people with serious cognitive disorders at my FLGS, local conventions, or tourneys. Where they exist in our hobby, they are a tiny minority. No one is saying the person with MS is lazy for not painting his minis. I'm just trying to reconcile the number of people who don't paint their minis against this small minority of disabled gamers.

Or are you saying our hobby attracts a disproportionate amount of people with disabilities?

Well, computer programming used to be a profession that had an extremely disproportionate number of people with schizoid personality disorder, along with forest rangers and one other profession I forget. It was because for decades, computer programming was a solo thing where the programmer didn't have to deal with many people, often writing entire products by themself. More recently it's become a more social profession, often requiring teams of programmers and interaction with a growing number of people not directly involved in the work. Social interaction, especially with strangers, is not something that schizoids handle well, and the changing social nature of the job has caused many problems, such as in my dad's case where he ended up having to use all of his banked sick leave and a total of a few years off from work.

Also, you'd be surprised how common physical and mental issues are. For example, did you know that schizophrenics such as myself make up about 1% of all humans?

So it's not inconceivable that tabletop gaming draws a disproportionate number of people with certain health problems.

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm just trying to reconcile the number of people who don't paint their minis against this small minority of disabled gamers.

Could you provide some examples of people claiming that people with disabilities are a majority (or even a significant minority) of the people who don't paint their models? So far all I've seen is people pointing out that some of the people who don't paint have legitimate reasons for not being able to do so. And "yes, they exist" is not at all the same as "they're the majority".

 Peregrine wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm just trying to reconcile the number of people who don't paint their minis against this small minority of disabled gamers.

Could you provide some examples of people claiming that people with disabilities are a majority (or even a significant minority) of the people who don't paint their models? So far all I've seen is people pointing out that some of the people who don't paint have legitimate reasons for not being able to do so. And "yes, they exist" is not at all the same as "they're the majority".

Hypothetically, if someone showed up for a pick-up game with an unpainted army, would you not enjoy the game or refuse to play them unless they went into detail about how their disability makes painting unfeasible?

 Pouncey wrote:
Hypothetically, if someone showed up for a pick-up game with an unpainted army, would you not enjoy the game or refuse to play them unless they went into detail about how their disability makes painting unfeasible?

What does their disability have to do with it? I'm not going to enjoy the game more just because they have a good reason for doing things I don't like. The real issue here is whether it's appropriate to call someone lazy for not painting and assume that nobody could possibly have a good reason.

And let's be honest here, the vast majority of people who don't paint their armies do not have a disability that prevents them from doing it. They don't paint their armies because they don't want to paint. There is no impossible obstacle in their path, they've simply chosen to spend their time and money on other things.

 Peregrine wrote:

 the_Armyman wrote:
I'm just trying to reconcile the number of people who don't paint their minis against this small minority of disabled gamers.

Could you provide some examples of people claiming that people with disabilities are a majority (or even a significant minority) of the people who don't paint their models? So far all I've seen is people pointing out that some of the people who don't paint have legitimate reasons for not being able to do so. And "yes, they exist" is not at all the same as "they're the majority".

Then why bring them up? If they're not significantly impacting the point of discussion, why do people feel the need to bring them into the discussion. Because they exist? Everyone here realizes that some people in the hobby have a disability. Some of those people with disabilities can participate in all aspects of the hobby, some of them can't. What was the purpose of bringing them into the discussion if not to strengthen one side of the argument? I've simply rebutted this point with my own observations.

So, in conclusion:

1. There are people who choose to not paint their minis. True.
2. Some of these people, may have a disability. True.
3. Some of these people may have a disability that prevents them from painting their minis. True.
4. This population of people who have both a disability and do not paint their minis are a significant enough subset of the population that they need to be accounted for to answer the question: why don't people paint their minis? False.

I think I've said everything I'm going to say on the matter lest it devolve into something unintended.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:
Hypothetically, if someone showed up for a pick-up game with an unpainted army, would you not enjoy the game or refuse to play them unless they went into detail about how their disability makes painting unfeasible?

What does their disability have to do with it? I'm not going to enjoy the game more just because they have a good reason for doing things I don't like. The real issue here is whether it's appropriate to call someone lazy for not painting and assume that nobody could possibly have a good reason.

And let's be honest here, the vast majority of people who don't paint their armies do not have a disability that prevents them from doing it. They don't paint their armies because they don't want to paint. There is no impossible obstacle in their path, they've simply chosen to spend their time and money on other things.

I think I quoted the wrong person. : /

 the_Armyman wrote:
Or are you saying our hobby attracts a disproportionate amount of people with disabilities?

I think it probably does. Several of my mates started the hobby because of an injury that stopped them playing sports and I reckon there's probably a disproportionate number of wargamers who have long term disabilities that have stopped them doing other things.

I don't think there's too many people with disabilities completely stopping them, but I think there's a lot of people with issues that makes it very unpleasant to the point of it being a legitimate excuse. I myself get inflammation in my hands very easily that prevents me working on models for a long period. I think I'd really struggle to paint an army these days since it's gotten worse over the past few years. I do still paint though, but I tend to paint one-offs rather than entire armies (my painted armies are all from years gone by). It's not uncommon to hear of people with similar complaints.

One of the best modellers I know has issues with his hands that make it hard for him to work on models for any period. He tends to only build large stuff these days because of it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:
Colour minimum is such a stupid house rule, my nids are bone purple and then nuln oil'ed since its a swarm army. Isn't the best looking but it looks a lot better than grey. Shouldn't mean I don't get to play with them.

That would be three colors. Or you could highlight the edges a lighter shade of purple. Or paint the eyes. Etc. I don't think there's a single model in 40k that can be painted adequately without using at least three colors.

They count shades as colors? If so i'm good then, but no chance ill be painting hundreds of gaunts with more than my basic paintjob, way too much time investment to hit some silly requirement.

OgreChubbs wrote:
No one who didn't play the old monkey skaven has a right to say paint your army..... I still cry at night.

things to glue 2 part chest/ waist/ 2 arms /tail/ to base /shield
Then paint 200+ who all look so much the same after the first 50 you are not sure if it is a endless nightmare or you died somewhere in between. talk about a limbo

*Shudders* Please dont, I still have nightmares about these. My old Skaven will be finished one day but I just gave in after Clanrat #218 and have only been able to paint a few every now and again ever since. I have several units done but they are a nightmare to do and even my GUard where better because I needed no where near as many.

For me, it is very simple- Nobody has the rights to tell what I should do in my spare time. I have no such rights either. Ofcourse that playing with painted models is better, but snobbism,elitarism and hostility are not a good price to pay for that. It is a hobby after all, something that you do in your spare time and should be enjoyable for the person that is doing it. If anyone is too snobbish about playing against unpainted models, he is probably not worth playing against.

Luckily, I love painting and have painted 70+ models this year alone. But sometimes I don't feel like painting. Sometimes I would like to play with the model(s) I've just bought or want to try a radically different list than the painted one I am playing with. I am in the hobby for fun ,so I would like you to get off my lawn and take all your ideas about how I should spend my free time with you(not talking about anyone in particular here).

I live in a three-room apartment and my wife has categorically forbidden me to paint indoors, leaving... the balcony. It's about to get -20 outside.

Sea of gray it is for me!