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"...maybe DA are undergunned and overpriced, but if people were just willing to use some tactics instead of relying on an overpowered army list then..."

I have lost count of how many times coments like this have come up, but quite frankly I'm sick of it.  Its an absolutely absurd statement, yet it comes up again and again. (for reference, I'm attacking the tactics part, the DA sucking part can and is being discussed elsewhere) Are these people actually convinced that we just randomly throw their armies right at each other hoping to come out on top?  Do you think people set up their IW list, go get dinner, and come back an hour later find they have won a major victory?  'Just use tactics' is a hollow, illogical arguement that we have somehow allowed to become the standard for justifying poor unit choices. 

Perhaps what astounds me more is people insistence that every unit is good in some way.  Especially if you use tactics.  For example, "The Grenade Launcher is a great weapon, even compared to the plasma gun, if your willing to use tactics."  Notice how I don't actually give any sound reasoning to back up this statement, or how their is no actual tactical advice whatsoever about when, where, and why to use the GL over the Plasma Gun.

Then there is the comment of how list building has become so much more important in 4th edition.  Guess what, it hasn't.  Simply because you as a player are becoming more aware of its importance (thanks largely to the internet) does not mean it suddenly became a vital factor of 40k in 4th.  It has always, and will always continue to be an extremely important part of winning.  Tournament list building in itself is extremely challenging, players need to design a list that has as overwhelmingly synergistic gameplan that also takes into account, and prepares for, the metagame.  Why do you think that most army lists have only one or two viable builds?  Because the neccessity for a strong game plan as well as metagame decisions demands it.

I was thinking this same thing too. Maybe if some African bushmen would just use tactics, they'd be able to outgun modern military forces! You know, like orcs with choppas footslogging towards Tau gunlines.

Yet, sometimes it is a valid statement to 'just use some tactics'.

Alot of the whining 'I can't do anything about x, it needs to be banned' statements are from people who just want to put thier armies in a gunline and shoot the heck out of anything coming thier way.

1st turn assaulters come to mind. Alot of whining about them, but there ARE things that can prevent/help against them if people use tactics.

My problem with the 'just use tactics' comment is that it is so incomplete. It is like the article in White Dwarf on painting harlequins... "just draw a diamond pattern and then color it in". Oh, that was helpful. And look, they have even put some lines on the paper- the FLAT paper- and arranged them into a diamond pattern, and colored them in! That is so useful for me trying to draw straight lines on a curved, tiny little surface.

So when someone says 'just use tactics', I expect them to describe the tactics. Fill in the blanks, don't leave me hanging.

Enjoy! This and this.

Oh, and to tie this into the Nidzilla post, tactics to beat Nidzilla: deploy your guys and shoot the big aliens first. It wins ALL THE TIME.

I like the "scaredy bear".
I think I'll draw one now.
Using tactics.

LOL stonefox

I seem to remember a sig running around for a while that went something like "Tactical advice for Ork Bosses: don't get shot"

And it is important to remember 'tactics' includes such options as charging straight at the machine-gun nest, to show them you mean business. Sometimes, it even works.

I'm pretty sure that 'just use tactics' constitutes high-level advice for the denizens of Warseer.

Glad it doesn't happen here...

BYE

Wierd how I don't see people on warseer *female dog*ing about Dakkadakka though.
Anyway, yes, that is a stupid argument. Tell me how "tactics" can help a unit of ork boyz against a dreadnaught.

Posted By Da Boss on 04/10/2007 4:27 AM
Wierd how I don't see people on warseer *female dog*ing about Dakkadakka though.
Anyway, yes, that is a stupid argument. Tell me how "tactics" can help a unit of ork boyz against a dreadnaught.

Easy.  Don't charge it unless you've a power claw nob in the unit.  The Dread doesn't move any faster than your boys, so don't put yourself in a position to get charged by the dread.  Also, the dread only has 2-3 attacks per round (statistically only killing one orc per phase), so until you get below 11 or so models, all the dread does is tarpit the unit, so don't even worry particularly much if you do get charged by the dread.  Odd's are you'll still be scoring by the end of the game.

So more tactics.  Considering the above situation, even if you don't have a power claw nob in the unit, you're better off assaulting the dread if the dread has the ubiquitous AC/HF combo.  In shooting, the Dread could wipe out the whole unit between the four AC shots and the HF template.  I'd rather tarpit myself in assault against that dread than let it shoot me.

Sal.

Because Dakkites are evil people and you should never, ever make a string of orcs towards a dreadnought or seer council so it can only effectively kill 2 models per turn. Slingshotting carnifices were bad too, so don't even think about slingshooting your Emperor's Champion either!

Yes, well, the power claw thing is a list selection, or strategy, problem. So not tactics. But charge it, and you'll die, don't charge it, and you'll die- you can't actually beat it. I know how to deal with dreads, but I was using it as an example of a situation where strategy is the deciding factor, not tactics. Hope that's a bit clearer.
My point was that there is not always a tactical solution to a problem, which is why some element of list building (stategy) is needed. Tactics are important, but not always enough.
It's why I'd like a more complicated combat resolution system in 40K. In fantasy, my boyz could still win that fight as long as they had the high ground, out numbering and a standard. In 40K they're doomed. Fantasy offers more tactical solutions- there are less match ups of that sort. But that's a topic for another thread.

I find the assumption that 40k has tactics to be more offensive, imho.

Ah, of course it has tactics!
But the amount of viable tactics available to each unit are more limited than in Fantasy, for some armies.

True you have to use some strategy (as in having a balanced list) to have viable tactics. The problem to alot of people is that actually using tactics is being a 'bad sport' because they just want to line up thier toy soilders and roll dice.



And btw, if you haven't heard Warseer people *female dog*ing about Dakka, you haven't read there very often

I remember mention to Dakka, but not the *female dog*ing. But I stopped reading it, as it became a bit too much to keep up with sometimes.
Another pet peeve of mine is people quoting the art of war.
I'm playing a wargame, not leading a peasant army in 5th century china!

Posted By H.B.M.C. on 04/09/2007 9:33 PM
I'm pretty sure that 'just use tactics' constitutes high-level advice for the denizens of Warseer.

Glad it doesn't happen here...

BYE

I thought Dakka's MO was play better.

Posted By Da Boss on 04/10/2007 9:03 AM
Yes, well, the power claw thing is a list selection, or strategy, problem. So not tactics.

 

Actually, I think Salviden gave a very good example of tactics, the sort of example I'd like to see more of.  He pointed out a problem (dreadnaught!) and gave a solution (assault it), then gave his reasons (orcs will last longer in HtH than they will vs. shooting, and assaulting prevents the dreadnaught from doing more damage elsewhere).

Now we are free to discuss all sorts of permutations of the scenario, and decide for ourselves whether or not we'd use that tactic.

He didn't just say, "Orcs can totally beat dreadnaughts! Just use some tactics, doofus."

Exactly. In a table quarters or objectives game (and even some regular VP games) it could easily be worth assaulting a dreadnought with an Ork mob, because it would silience the dread's guns and prevent the Orks from being shot themselves. A mob of 20 boys can be shot to bits in a single turn by a SM army with sufficient ACs, template guns, and HBs. But in HtH with a dread they are practically guaranteed to remain over half even if they're in combat for six turns. While the SM player could counter-assault with another unit, at that point at least the Boyz get to fight!

Good tactic. Obviously not one you're frequently going to get a chance to use, given the slow speeds of both boyz and Dreads, but it's a great example of tactical thinking because it takes a superficially bad situation, looks at the real odds and dangers involved, and creates a way out.

Okay, I'm speed freeks. The enemy is Dark Eldar.
He gets first turn, his skimmers rise over the terrain and destroys two trukks. The boyz are pinned and pretty much out of the game now.

How do I avoid this?

Hmmm.This is not a scenario I would consider a "victory" for the orks. They cannot harm the dread, so it still counts as a scoring unit. If it can get them down to half strength, it can then claim a table quarter or whatever. (I realise this is unlikely)
At best, your expensive mob has been neutralised by a cheaper foe. Not ideal.
I was primarily using it as an example of when the available tactics are more damage control than a solution, and strategy (list design) is the best/only solution.
I wasn't actually asking how people would do it, I know the answers to that already.
Reconsidering, gaurdsmen are  a better example perhaps. Because at least the boys can possibly get rear armour shots on the dread with their shootas/sluggas.
Not likely though.
So, to re-iterate, I wasn't stating a tactical problem that I needed solved, but a situation in which list building is more important than tactics.
Y'dig?
In a really roundabout, confusing and longwinded manner, I'm agreeing with the orginal poster.

Shadowstrike: You sit behind your own terrain and learn the skimmer rules so you'd know he can't shoot you.

Tactics is only 10% of the game. Army lists is 50%, Mission is 10%, Deployment is 20%, and luck 10%.


Some army lists allow for Britney Spears to win with. Some lists not even Greg Sparks or Marc Parker can win on a consistent basis with.

You could do what I do in Warmachine.

Moral victory.

"If I can kill something with my choir unit, I'll consider myself the victor of this engagement."

Tactics is knowing that if you make a mob of 12 or more Orks and DON'T have a power klaw nob in there then you deserve to lose.

Mobs without PK Nobs makes baby Gork & Mork cry.

Posted By malfred on 04/10/2007 2:05 PM
You could do what I do in Warmachine.

Moral victory.

"If I can kill something with my choir unit, I'll consider myself the victor of this engagement."

Hrmph!  Sounds like loser talk.

Posted By thehod on 04/10/2007 12:26 PM
Tactics is only 10% of the game. Army lists is 50%, Mission is 10%, Deployment is 20%, and luck 10%.


Some army lists allow for Britney Spears to win with. Some lists not even Greg Sparks or Marc Parker can win on a consistent basis with.

Make Tactics 5 % and luck perhaps 15 ;-)

Britney can bring a Godzilla nid list designed by Yakface or thehod and I will still trounce her with new codex DA.

Tactics are a larger part of the equation than people are giving them credit. At least they are if you play with terrain on the table. And using missions, as opposed to "kill 'em all" with no turn limit.