Dark Eldar rumors - pics and video page1

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Jayden63**

One use I can sort of see with Wyches is that being a real troop choice they will get objective secured status. Add to the fact that they pose no real threat, they might not recieve much incoming fire, thus allowing them to capitalize on objective grabbing in Malestrom missions.

Units of Warriors will receive more incoming fire and be shot at because they actually pose a threat from medium range.

As for Reavers, since they have to now engage a unit to actually damage it, they should also be shooting said unit with their own weapons. So you have 6 splinter rifles and 3 blasters or heatlances as well to help them kill whatever they are going to charge into.

The old issue of putting guns on the models was that when using the old bladevein attack you never shot at anybody. Now you can at least put some of those gun upgrades to better use.

**Red Corsair**

Bringing something because it is so harmless it will be ignored is not a valid strategy at 10ppm IMHO.

**BlaxicanX**

Any word on the stats for the void bomb?

**Red Corsair**

BlaxicanX wrote:
Any word on the stats for the void bomb?

large blast, st8 ap2 lance

**ShadarLogoth**

The new PfP mechanic is a big buff for Wyches. Hold them in a Raider in reserve.

People keep saying Wyches got nerfed, but the truth is Haywire Wyches got nerfed (or rather completely axed). Normal Wyches are definitely better then they were. Is it enough better? I'm not sure. But it's definitely better. The weapon options are more cost effective for what they do and the PfP mechanic is improved.

However, a couple of Raiders filled with girls in Reserve is definitely something that needs to be played around with. They can come in after the enemy has been softened up and, with AetherSales, get to pretty much any point on the board (to take advantage of terrain/get to important Maelstrom targets/etc).

**Red Corsair**

ShadarLogoth wrote:
The new PfP mechanic is a big buff for Wyches. Hold them in a Raider in reserve.

People keep saying Wyches got nerfed, but the truth is Haywire Wyches got nerfed (or rather completely axed). Normal Wyches are definitely better then they were. Is it enough better? I'm not sure. But it's definitely better. The weapon options are more cost effective for what they do and the PfP mechanic is improved.

However, a couple of Raiders filled with girls in Reserve is definitely something that needs to be played around with. They can come in after the enemy has been softened up and, with AetherSales, get to pretty much any point on the board (to take advantage of terrain/get to important Maelstrom targets/etc).

Warriors still do that job better though. DS or move on from reserve and shoot rather then wait a full turn so you can assault. You hit on 3's regardless unlike CC and you always wound on a 4+ as well, with racks its even more obvious.

I see your point, but they still stink, just a tad less is all. It would be a different story had they been the 8ppm option and warriors the 10. Sadly they are the more expensive, less durable option. I really don't understand how people keep defending wyches. I think a lot of stuff looks awesome, sadly wyches are just as lousy at assaults and lost the only gimmick that saw them play time; haywire grenades.

**Nightwolf829**

I am more optimistic now than I was when I first saw the rumors. Yet disappointed would still best express how I feel. A balanced and fun book chocked full of options, that only needed the most minor of updates, has had its soul ripped from it. It feels like Chaos Space Marines and Tyranids all over again. Sure you can still win, but its going to be gimmicky and predictable. The army has lost any sense of vibrancy and artistry. In its stead is a hollow shell. How ironic.

As for games workshop:

Pray they don't come for your army next.

**Jayden63**

I'm trying to figure out how the two fliers are going to be worth their points. AV10 and 130 - 160 points is terrible investment. Even at 3 HP, its still not enough survivability, let alone anything that has skyfire/interceptor on it. The standard ADL quad gun will remove two HPs right from the get go.

Add to it without vector dancer they aren't even that good at dog fighting as they can't take advantage of other flyers sometimes weak rear armor. The new SW stormfang/Stormwolf are miles ahead of these things in general utility and the Eldar Crimson Hunter is what these things should have started out with base and moved up from there.

**ShadarLogoth**

Warriors still do that job better though. DS or move on from reserve and shoot rather then wait a full turn so you can assault. You hit on 3's regardless unlike CC and you always wound on a 4+ as well, with racks its even more obvious.

I see your point, but they still stink, just a tad less is all. It would be a different story had they been the 8ppm option and warriors the 10. Sadly they are the more expensive, less durable option. I really don't understand how people keep defending wyches. I think a lot of stuff looks awesome, sadly wyches are just as lousy at assaults and lost the only gimmick that saw them play time; haywire grenades.

Some people just like running Wyches, is definitely a big part of that, but another is they are a legitimate CC/tar-pitting threat that can score. Is that called for at all? Maybe, maybe not. But the do perform a specific role that isn't directly duplicated in the codex.

I've always been more drawn to a fast hitting CC force with my DE, so I'll at least experiment them in this regard.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

I'm trying to figure out how the two fliers are going to be worth their points. AV10 and 130 - 160 points is terrible investment. Even at 3 HP, its still not enough survivability, let alone anything that has skyfire/interceptor on it. The standard ADL quad gun will remove two HPs right from the get go.

I think the new Bomber could easily make its points the turn it comes on the board.

**Shingen**

ClockworkZion wrote:
Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Has anyone got a link to a single post with all of these pieces of information in one place, as the first post here doesn't seem to be able to keep up.

Best I can offer is a roll up the stuff from Scorpion on The Dark City:

Talos are 1-3 in a unit.

Cronos the same but cant mix with Talos.

Kabalites are the same allthough PGL is as rumoured soulblight (no way of getting defensive grenades). 8 points and may take a raider even though a unit is 10+.

Razorwing is 130 points, may only take nightshields (which gives steath) and is a fast choice (not heavy). Its not a vector dancer :-( Dark Lances cost 5 more points each than a disintegrators.

Q: Can a unit champion for jetbikes get or take a power axe? any Power weapon?
A: Only power swords and Agonisers which is AP 3, poison (4+)

Q: What would the total cost of 5 scourges with 4 haywire guns cost?
A: 120

Q: Wyches... 2 attacks base or 1? (extra hand weapon and charge = 4 attacks each?)
A: 1 attack

Q: Do Kaivex (Exarch) Powers still exist?
A: No

Q: Did Ravagers lose Aerial Assault? Still AV11?
A: Yes and still AV11

Q: Is the Haemonculus (the small/cheap one 1 - 3 choice) gone and fully replaced by the ancient?
A: He is gone. Ancient is in.

Q: Are there any formations (like the Tyranid Dataslates or the Apoc book formations) in the book?
A: 1 formation

Q: Did the Lhamean keep her "give 2+ poison to archon" special rule?
A: No

Q: Did Talos get any new movement rules?
A: No

Q: Grotesques, same stats, points and options? Still blow up if not joined by an independent character?
A: Grotesques are the new hit, I think. Same stats but.... they do not blow up and they got Flesh gauntlets + ccw and Rampage. Nice!! Flesh Gauntlets: S as user, AP-, Lethal Dose, poison (4+).

Lethal Dose: 6 to wound gives ID.

Q: Are scourge rumours true, squads of 5 can take 4 heavy weapons?
A: Yes

Q: 6 fast attack slots?
A: In the "Realspace Raiders Detachment" can you get 6 fast choices, yes. Giving 5+ cover save to troops and 6+ cover save too all others units in the detachment int the first turn AND any turn with night fighting.

Q: can other units enter via webway portal once deepstriked in?
A: any unit the Archon/succubus/heamon that has it have joint and their transport. Thats DS without scattering.

Q: does webwat portal use same small blast template as before(really hope my webway portals get used!)
A: No blast.

Q: Transport capacity of vehicles the same?
A: Yes

Q: Can any if the HQs take a bike or sky board?
A: No and no

Q: are there still trueborn in there and can they still take the same weapons they did in the old dex
A: Yes and Yes.

Q: are mandrakes better?
A: Much better, stealth, shrouded and baleblast from start. Baleblast: assault 2, St 4. AP4, soulblaze

Q: what got nerfed in terms of units
A: Wyches are dead no buffs, no haywire, Dodge only in Fight subphase. Incubi cant get grenades.

Q: can venoms still take double splinter cannons?
A: Yes but can only get Grisly trophies and chain snares.... no shields. SUCKS!!

Q: what defenses did our vehicles get ?, with the removal of Flickerfields to everything other than venoms.
A: Night shields give stealth and the new detachment gives cover in the first turn.

Q: how much is a shadowfield now?/ who can take them
A:4+ inv, 40 points, only archon

Q: What do WWP's do now? and how many points?
A: gives DS without scatter, 35 points, archon/succubus/ heamon can take it.

Q: Can the flyers take flickerfields?
A: No

Q: Do wyches have any chance to survive overwatch and raider explosion? or nothing has changed?
A: No change

Q: Which units have access to Haywire weapons?
A: only wych champion, succubus, archon

Q: Are Harlequins still in the book?
A: Only in fluff, no entry

Q: wait are the shadowfields now a 4+ invul?
A: No, sorry, I mixed it up. Clonefield is 4+ inv. Shadowfield is allmost the same. It works until the end of the phase inwhich you fail the 2+ inv.

Q: Sorry for the barrage but this one's kinda huge.. are saying warriors went to min size 10? If so do they still unlock venoms?
A: 5 is the minimum size but you can buy a raider to a unit that is 10+ big.

Q: Can an Archon have any AP2 weapon at all?
A: Not in Melee

Q: Which models can have a Venomblade?
A: Acothyst

Q: Are combat drugs an item that HQ's can buy from a list (like a Space marine captain can buy an Auspex), or is it directly bought within the entry? Can an Archon still buy it?
A: No drugs for archon

Q: Are Venoms and Raiders Fast Attacks as well as Dedicated Transports?
A: yes

Q: How have Incubi been changed?
A: No, but no way of getting assault grenades

Q:Are their Klaives now unwieldy?
A: No

Q: And what bonusses does the Klaivex now give?
A: He has Rampage

Q: What does soulblight do?
A: Sorry, soulfright:

At the end of shooting phase, a unit that has been hit by a weapon with that rule must make a Ld test. units takes wound with no armour or cover save for each point the test is failed by. Doesn't Work on Fearless and ATSKNF.

Both PGL and TGL has that.

PGL: range 18", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright
TGL: range 24", S 1, AP-, assault 1, blast, soulfright

Q: Does Urien still offer a S6 upgrade to Grots?
A: No.

Q: Stats on the wracks and grotesques? Also, Do they get FnP stock or earlier than other units?
A: The same... they start with FNP and...
Talos and Chronos start with FNP as well. And Chronos Spirit Probe gives DE unit within 6" +1 to FNP to a maximum of 4+

Q: Any shooting weapon options for Archon, like Blasters, Shardcarbines etc...
A: Yes

Q: Can Succubus take relics?
A: Yes

Q: Is Archon armor save 5+ or 3+
A: 5+

Q: Do Warrior squads come with Sybarites free?
A: No

Q: I heard from somewhere that each of them [Grotesques] now have flesh gauntlets, and can be equipped with liquefiers each. Any confirmation?
A: Confirmed!

Q: I do wish witches got something, hopefully they are dirt cheap.
A: 10 points each

All missiles have the blast or Large blast rule.

The void bomb is large blast now,

Dark scythes that the voidraven can get instead of voidlances are 24", S 8, AP2, Blast, lance.

Mandrakes cause fear as well. So they have: Fear, Fleet, Infiltrate, Move through cover, Night vision, PfP, Shrouded, stealth, Baleblast, CCW. 13 points. A very nice unit.

stats: 4 - 4- 4- 3- 1- 5- 2- 8

Archon can buy his own Venom, and blasterborn can have venoms as well.

RE Archon: Cant get a Raider, only venom.

Q: Could you detail Urien for us? Pt cost, stats, special rules, war gear?
A: 140 points, Gnarlskin, CCW, Ichor Injector (Fleshbane, Lethal dose), Clone Field, FNP(4+), It will not Die, Night Vision, Master of Pain (same as ordinary heamon - treat the current turn as being one higher that it actually is when determining special rules from PfP), PfP, Father of pain (Master of Pain rule affects all unit within 12", not just his own unit). Casket of Flensing: Range 12", S 3, AP 3, assault 2D6, One use.

Q: So talos moving up with cronos have 4+ fnp? Would say a unit of 2 cronos give 4+ fnp to each other?
A: No, it affect the chronos it self as well. So one Chronos with spitit probe has FNP 4+.

Q: Really liking the sound of grots though. Points stayed the same on them?
A: 35 points

Q: Can archon take a gun other than the blaster and relic?
A: Blast Pistol

Q: Also iirc urien's states were pretty good.. s5 t5 w5 right?
A: S3, T5, W3

Q: Do sslyths have the bulky rule?
A: No, just FnP and Fleet

Q: What is Raider capacity?
A: As before

Q: Can you take Warrior squad and IC in the same raider?
A: As before

Q: What about bloodbrides - what do they bring to the normal Wyches?
A: As before

Q: Who can take power lance?
A: No one, only Power Swords

Q: Do Razorwings comes with missiles?
A: As before

Q: So archon with court and lhaeman will make his agoniser 2+ poison ap3?
A: No, Lhamaean poison doesn't affect the archon.

Q: Scorpion, could you clarify if chronos has anything other than increasing FNP within 6"?
A: Nothing more. Same weapons as before. It starts with a spirit syphon and can buy spirit vortex and spirit vortex. Vortex ans syphon do the same as before.

Q: Whats your overall impressions army wide? Do we lost or do we gain via point costs and rules changes?
A: Thats one hell of a question. I havent played any 7th games yet so this is more a feeling than anything else.
We are going to see other units in play: Grots, Mandrakes, Scourges. Court.
I dont know if Venoms not having night shields is going to affect the Venom spam strategy.
Wyches are out, I cant see a use for them.
Beasts are NOT what they were. I think the WWP and DS Raiders, venoms and Ravengers are going to give us the suprise element in a game.
As Mushkilla mentioned in another post: its a new puzzle.

Q: Are Cronos still Monstrous Creatures?
A: Yes

Q: Do Lhamaeans still have their 2+ poisoned CCW?
A: Yes

Q:Also, is their cost the same?
A: 10 points

Q: Can I go with a Court full of Lhamaeans?
A: Yes, up to 12 of them

Q: Trueborn are min squadsize 5 correct? Are they otherwise unchanged?
A: Yes, they cost 11

Q: Are incubi also min squadsize 5?
A: 3

Q: Are splinter cannons more expensive for everything now? And what does the second cannon cost for the Venom?
A: 15 points, 10 points

Q: Do mandrakes have any non-cover-save save?
A: No

Q: What does a trilance Ravager cost?
A: 125. 110 with D.C. 5 points for each lance

Q: bloody hell thats ridiculous, so cout an be made up of 12 of any model?
A: Yes

Q: medusae have the ap3 s4 eye burst?
A: Yes

I know a lot of people are concerned butility this to me is exactly what DE needed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Exergy wrote:
SHUPPET wrote:
All our AT is pretty much 1 hit wonders.

However, 3 slots of Scourges being mandatory.... I'm not so sure it's a great replacement for up to 6x HWG Wyches...

I don't know, just these changes seem like they might make this the most linear dex released by GW to date. And I'm saying that as someone who plays Tyranids. DE by nature requires spam, we are glass cannons, if you take 1 or 2 of everything, all you are doing is ensuring that the most threatening stuff dies first, you need to win a war of attrition. Making the spam so much more restrictive can only be a bad thing, great troops was what we thrived on.

The problem with taking too many scourges, is what happens after you run out of meaningful armor to glance to death. You end up with 4 wound catchers for one guy with a shard carbine. At least they are fast, and by DE standards, durable.

Haywire Blasters are s4 ap4 so hardly useless.

**Barrywise**

BlaxicanX wrote:
I'm not too worried about AV. Very few armies these days even pack massive armor saturation, sans MSU marines. I think that with a 12" move and 24 inch guns, a mere two min-sized Scourge units combining their fire will reliably point and click remove one vehicle a turn from the board. Keep them in cover, and I think most players won't expend the firepower nescesary to wipe them out so long as you've got plenty of Raiders filled with rape-train grotesques up in their grill.

Overall, it seems to me that scourges and grotesques are the stars of the codex right now. I don't think Reavers are salvageable unless their bladevanes are utterly ridiculous, something like D3 str6 rending HoW attacks per caltrop. Wyches got tervigon'd, warriors got a lateral shift, archons and succubi are tax for getting deep-striking stuff. Taloi... idk. They're my favorite unit in the codex, but the actual obstacle preventing them from fulfilling their role (lack of mobility) was not addressed at all. I'll probably take them in a squad of three and use them in a role similar to dakka-fex.

Still don't like ravagers. Three lances are only putting one glance on av12 per turn on average- that they're even more expensive is disgusting.

Need more info on the flyers before making a judgment call. Their armaments need to be reeeeeally good to justify 160 points on an av10 chassis, and a single ap2 small blast isn't going to cut it (though another part of me is glad that more ap2 large blasts aren't being added into the game).

my 2 cents:
-Reavers are salvageable if you have another unit take the overwatch for them *cough cough* wyches or grots. Also I'm pretty sure cluster caltrops are d6 s6 HoW but reavers are down to 1 HoW per. Don't quote me on the caltrops though, I thought I read it earlier via Scorpion but I'm too lazy to find it.
-Ravagers lost Aerial Assault

-Archon can still wreck most marines with AP3
-Succubus has access to AP2
-Pay WWP tax for taloi?
-The best way to use the bomber has been determined to fire everything as soon as it comes on and expect it to crash and burn. Where massed poison doesn't work, try str8 ap 2!
-You forgot Mandrakes in cover

-Scorpion had a list of the relics before a mod took it down and we can cause a -2 ld 12" bubble (helm of spite), and then another -2 ld from war gear or something i don't remember, Basically fething psykers, causing huge disturbances with urien granting fear to coven units, fear on mandrakes, maybe even allied swooping hawks blinding, then there's the PGL which has soulfright. The only counter is ATSKNF as scorpion specifically said all of our ld affecting gear doesn't affect them at all...

Final Note: with everything that I've said due to the new PfP, units needing to get up board and on the board, it seems like it'll be a good idea to get elder allies for reserve shenanigans so that literally everything is hitting your opponent at the same time. Fluff wise it makes me giddy just thinking about it. It makes me think of Longest Day (D-Day movie) where the German general looks out to sea and sees all the Allied ships and realizes instantly how fethed he is. Sure some will die from machine gun fire (wyches

) but by then it's already too late. AND he didn't know about the paratroopers.

**ShadarLogoth**

-Reavers are salvageable if you have another unit take the overwatch for them *cough cough* wyches or grots. Also I'm pretty sure cluster caltrops are d6 s6 HoW but reavers are down to 1 HoW per. Don't quote me on the caltrops though, I thought I read it earlier via Scorpion but I'm too lazy to find it.

Why would you need something else to take tank the Overwatch? Reavers are T4 with jink and FNP. Seems survivable enough.

**Haljin**

ShadarLogoth wrote:
-Reavers are salvageable if you have another unit take the overwatch for them *cough cough* wyches or grots. Also I'm pretty sure cluster caltrops are d6 s6 HoW but reavers are down to 1 HoW per. Don't quote me on the caltrops though, I thought I read it earlier via Scorpion but I'm too lazy to find it.

Why would you need something else to take tank the Overwatch? Reavers are T4 with jink and FNP. Seems survivable enough.

And can you jink as response to overwatch? I'm not so sure.

**Drk_Oblitr8r**

Finecast Archon's no longer available

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-AU/Dark-Eldar-Archon

**th3maninblak**

Power from pain seems really good. Grotesques and mandrakes also look very promising. Witches suck, but kabalite warriors at 8ppm? Yes please. Hesperax at 150 points with rampage, 4 attacks base, and 2 ccws means she can rock up to 9 attacks on the charge, rerolling to hit and wound for dirt cheap. Ravagers are still good, the jet is fine, and the bomber packs a TON of firepower even though its fragile as hell.

I agree that the book has lost flavor, but it seems very powerful so far. Not saying DE fans have no reason to complain (you do) but in all its shaping up to be a strong book.

**ryuken87**

Do we know about Khymera yet, was the rumour they lost 4++ and gained the Daemon special rule true? How many PPM and any other stat changes?

Haljin wrote:
ShadarLogoth wrote:
-Reavers are salvageable if you have another unit take the overwatch for them *cough cough* wyches or grots. Also I'm pretty sure cluster caltrops are d6 s6 HoW but reavers are down to 1 HoW per. Don't quote me on the caltrops though, I thought I read it earlier via Scorpion but I'm too lazy to find it.

Why would you need something else to take tank the Overwatch? Reavers are T4 with jink and FNP. Seems survivable enough.

And can you jink as response to overwatch? I'm not so sure.

Yep.

**Nocturnus**

DarknessEternal wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
I think grots are nice but they will still get hard countered by wraithknights, so kill that guy first.

Grotesques themselves ARE the thing killing Wraithknights. You have the order of who's afraid of who in that fight backwards.

Wrong. Mass Splinter weapon fire is what the Wraithknight (and all monstrous creatures) fear. More saves they have to roll, the better.

**th3maninblak**

Nocturnus wrote:
DarknessEternal wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
I think grots are nice but they will still get hard countered by wraithknights, so kill that guy first.

Grotesques themselves ARE the thing killing Wraithknights. You have the order of who's afraid of who in that fight backwards.

Wrong. Mass Splinter weapon fire is what the Wraithknight (and all monstrous creatures) fear. More saves they have to roll, the better.

Quoted for truth.

**wuestenfux**

Hollismason wrote:
Well congrats on Eldar getting open top transports.

If the rules are like that then we can look forward to Wraithguard in deep striking Raiders etc..

But this is just one DE transport for each ally detachment.
Choose wisely.

**Haljin**

wuestenfux wrote:
Hollismason wrote:
Well congrats on Eldar getting open top transports.

If the rules are like that then we can look forward to Wraithguard in deep striking Raiders etc..

But this is just one DE transport for each ally detachment.
Choose wisely.

Or take the DE detachment to add to your Eldar force and get 6.

**wuestenfux**

Haljin wrote:
wuestenfux wrote:
Hollismason wrote:
Well congrats on Eldar getting open top transports.

If the rules are like that then we can look forward to Wraithguard in deep striking Raiders etc..

But this is just one DE transport for each ally detachment.
Choose wisely.

Or take the DE detachment to add to your Eldar force and get 6.

In tournaments such detachments may not be allowed.
Anyway, it sounds tempting to mount some Eldar units in Venoms and Raiders,
like Fire Dragons and Wraithguard.

I remember the old Harlie codex from Citadel Journal #39.
It may celebrate a revival as it can be implemented in some way by combining DE/Eldar/unbound.

**Kirasu**

I wonder why there are so many questions about court of the archon and grotesques yet none about the actual DE power unit.. beast packs. GW seems pretty intent on destroying CC and the changes to wyches and incubi further that goal.

That's the real question!

**BlaxicanX**

Can someone clarify to me how the WWB item works? I was under the impression that it allowed whoever was carrying the WWP and their attached unit/transport to deep-strike without scatter?

Am I understanding it wrong? Do you get to pick any unit in your codex to DS without scatter for each WWP purchase? If so then yeah, deep-striking a squadron of Talos Engines would rock.

- - - -

I don't understand the hard-on for Wyches /w fnp ...t's a 6+ turn 2 and a 5+ turn 3 and onward. Why is that a big deal? All daemons have a stock 5++ save... are bloodletters renown for their durability? I mean, comparing Wyches to Bloodletters...

Both

- Are 10ppm.
- Are T3.
- Have one attack base.
- 6'' move.
- No grenades.
- Can be taken in units of 20.

Wyches
- Have a second attack from pistol/CCW
- Initiative 5
- Have a 4++ in combat.
- Can be in charge range by the bottom of turn 1 via raiders
- Have a free 6+ fnp turn 2 and a free 5+fnp turn 3 onward, can be buffed to a maximum of 4+.
- Become strength 4 on the charge for free turn 4(?).
- Get rage for free turn 5(?).

Bloodletters
- Are WS5
- Are strength 4 natively and strength 5 on the charge, from turn 1.
- Are all AP3, stock.
- Have a 5++ turn 1, which can be buffed to a 3++ or even a 2++ via grimoire and psyker shenanigans.
- Can deepstrike in blobs of 20.

So... who's better?

The best Bloodletters can hope for is a turn 3 assault, via deepstrike. Wyches in a raider can assault turn 2! Buuut putting them in a Raider halves their unit size to 10, and with only T3 and a 6+ fnp to protect them, you're probably going to wait until that 5+ fnp kicks in before assaulting... which brings us back to a turn 3 charge. And, the only way you're getting 20 Wyches is by foot-slogging, in which case have fun not getting into assault rage until like turn 5. Advantage: Bloodletters.

30 Strength 3 (4 if on turn 4) AP- attacks hitting on 4's against most things in the game and at initiative 5 versus 40 strength 5 AP3 attacks hitting on 3's against most things in the game and at the same time as most things in the game. Advantage: Bloodletters.

A 4+invuln/3+fnp and no fearless for tarpitting versus a 5+invuln and daemonic instability. Wyches will take less wounds in combat than Bloodletters because of their saves and because they don't have a special rule that actively kills more of them whenever they lose a combat, but Bloodletters will realistically have a larger unit size, won't run away and can actually hurt most of the things it tries to tarpit (8 wounds on a carnifex on the charge, 4 wounds on a WK assuming the WK kills 5 of them before they can strike? Yes pls). Advantage: tie, slight nod to Bloodletters.

Mobility: Wyches can zip around in their Raiders and either fast-respond to a threat or make a last-turn objective grab, which bloodletters simply can not do. But what are the odds that your 10 T3 models in an av10 death-trap are going to live that long? And if you're jinking all game to keep the raider alive, it's not shooting. Advantage: Wyches

So, generally speaking and as best as one can tell in a vacuum, Bloodletters seem to be a much more useful unit than Wyches. Now, consider that the consensus surrounding Bloodletters is that they're one of the worse dedicated assault units in the game...

I respect whoever it was above who said that taking Wyches simply because you like Wyches is a good enough reason to take them- that's certainly why I would take them. Let's not kid ourselves into thinking that they're actually competitive units or have a role that can't be performed better by other units in the codex, though. As noted, there's really not a whole lot Wyches can do that you can't do better with just warriors. Tarpit, maybe?

**Zewrath**

Kirasu wrote:
I wonder why there are so many questions about court of the archon and grotesques yet none about the actual DE power unit.. beast packs. GW seems pretty intent on destroying CC and the changes to wyches and incubi further that goal.

That's the real question!

Because the beast pack died

**ShadarLogoth**

incubi further that goal.

Incubi are cheaper and have a better PfP mechanic. The only possible "nerf" is the lack of a PGL, which many people never took with them anyway. Assault grenades are incredibly overrated (they are good, don't get me wrong, but the notion that every single assault unit needs them is completely unfounded, as Wraiths, CCBs, TH/SS termies, and Dlords should have illuminated to people by now).

I don't understand the hard-on for Wyches /w fnp. I mean... it's a 6+ turn 2 and a 5+ turn 3 and onward. Why is that a big deal? All daemons have a stock 5++ save... are blood-letters renown for their durability?

It's not a hard on, it's simply stating this is a buff over what they had previously. You use to have to pay 50 points to get them any kind of FNP before they hit combat. Now you get it for free. Demons have always had their 5++ save, and have always been balanced around having that save. Now Wyches have something they simply did not have before, and a 33% increase in resiliency from Turn 3 could be quite significant (particularly if you are reserving them).

**BlaxicanX**

And that would be fine if that's as far as the observation went. Wyches have a 5+ fnp at turn 3, they didn't have that before. Okay, and the sky is blue, my skin is almond brown and this laptop is black. That's one thing.

The assertion (which has been frequently made in this thread) that Wyches are somehow competent at their intended role and may be competitive choices, on the other hand, is something else entirely.

**ShadarLogoth**

The assertion (which has been frequently made in this thread) that Wyches are somehow competent at their intended role and may be competitive choices, on the other hand, is something else entirely.

So is the notion that they were so tragically falling short of that intended role that FNP couldn't help get them there...

Wyches were quite popular as CC units in 5th, as well as in 3rd. I6 CC units are pretty good. Overwatch and the explodes mechanisms of 6th/7th threw them a loop, and FNP directly helps them with the loop. It may not be enough, but I would say it's way to early to tell either way.

**Haljin**

In 3rd Wyches were a completely different unit. Wyches were never popular in 5th, at least not in a competetive setting.

**Amishprn86**

Haljin wrote:
In 3rd Wyches were a completely different unit. Wyches were never popular in 5th, at least not in a competetive setting.

The parking Lot edition? I guess my meta was different, b.c It was common to have 2-3 5man units in venoms with Haywire Grenades.

But Razorwings were skimmers and had 2-3 of those starting on table too... I remeber the 1st time I faced against the New DE book. 3 Razorwings, 2-3 Raiders 2-3 venoms loads of bikes, it was so beautiful

**BlaxicanX**

ShadarLogoth wrote:
So is the notion that they were so tragically falling short of that intended role that FNP couldn't help get them there...

Well alright then. I'll give it to you that Wyches are now better in the role that they're still terrible at.

It may not be enough, but I would say it's way to early to tell either way.

What's left to know? We know exactly what their stat-line is, exactly how much they cost, exactly what abilities they now have and exactly what equipment they have. If you can't make an accurate prediction now on how well 10 T3 models with 5++'s and no AP attacks or fearless are going to do in assault, you never will.