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ArbeitsSchu wrote:I do have one complaint based on that last lot of pics: Why is nobody in Corporation ever looking to their right? Have they worked out a way to get around spaceships without taking right hand corridors?

Thats been bothering me too. Worst case scenario the heads are already attached to the bodies. You know theres a reason why people like multi part models mantic, something you usually dont do at all

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
"Completely agree, they haven't made the best of choices if the intent was to actually make rip-off 40k models. You could extend this to the IoB clanrats too. Add some guns to those and you have much cheaper Veer-Myn than what Mantic is making."

It struck me when reading this, that maybe their "poor choices in trying rip off GW" might indicate that they aren't trying to be a GW rip-off?

So then what are they an alternative for? Infinite?

kenshin620 wrote:

ArbeitsSchu wrote:I do have one complaint based on that last lot of pics: Why is nobody in Corporation ever looking to their right? Have they worked out a way to get around spaceships without taking right hand corridors?

Thats been bothering me too. Worst case scenario the heads are already attached to the bodies. You know theres a reason why people like multi part models mantic, something you usually dont do at all

ArbeitsSchu wrote:
"Completely agree, they haven't made the best of choices if the intent was to actually make rip-off 40k models. You could extend this to the IoB clanrats too. Add some guns to those and you have much cheaper Veer-Myn than what Mantic is making."

It struck me when reading this, that maybe their "poor choices in trying rip off GW" might indicate that they aren't trying to be a GW rip-off?

So then what are they an alternative for? Infinite?

There is a difference between styling oneself as an alternative, and being a "rip-off" though.

ArbeitsSchu wrote:

There is a difference between styling oneself as an alternative, and being a "rip-off" though.

Euphemism perhaps?

garrapignado wrote:These soldiers need to go to gym to fortify those thighs.

Hah, yeah I was thinking "Needs more squats and oats" when I saw them.


Something is off about their proportions and I can't put my finger on it. Maybe it's because they are interchangeable parts---or I don't know...something just seems off.

Or maybe we have had too much of GW's heroic scale and when something is sculpted close to true scale, it looks out of place? Just a thought...

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Or maybe we have had too much of GW's heroic scale and when something is sculpted close to true scale, it looks out of place? Just a thought...

Yeah I thought maybe it was my Cadian bias as well--but after comparing to Infinity, etc.---just something seems off.

I'd have a hard time comparing anything to the infinity line, which baring their early sculpts, are leaps and bounds above GW, PP and others.

For me, this is like seeing the Elysian Drop Troopers for the first time. They looked down right out of place compared to GW's main line, then it dawned on me that they were actually made true scale as opposed to the beefy cadians.

Love those new pics from Golem.. they do awesome work. As of my next fig, they're gonna be handling the models for my game too

I'll probably start with a or 2 box of vets. The only thing I'm not as sold on is the heavy weapons though... I like em, but they just feel a little too short & stubby to me, mostly just in the barrels.. maybe I can extend em a bit with some plastirods.

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:If you take a look at 40k, what GW left for other companies to use? Serious, aparently they alredy used everything sci-fi have to offer...

I don't think that's the case.

Take AT-43, for example. The game felt like something out of the pages of a french bande dessinée drawn by Moebius or Enki Bilal. It had space soviets and rocket-riding gorillas, amongst many other crazy, off the wall ideas, yet noone would look at an AT-43 Karmann and say it's a Jokaero ripoff. (And vice-versa. The GW jokaero sculpt is entirely different to Rackham's take on the "space-monkeys with guns" trope). Rackham went down because of some deeply misguided business choices, not for the lack of appeal of their miniatures and setting.

Same goes for Infinity. One could argue that 40k is not as much an inspiration for Corvus Belli as it is Mutant Chronicles' Warzone, but the anime/manga angle, a setting deeply rooted in contemporary sci-fi and a distinct "future military" feel help setting Infinity apart from other sci-fi games, past and present.

Being different from GW's Warhammer 40k is not only possible, it's even easy.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:If you take a look at 40k, what GW left for other companies to use? Serious, aparently they alredy used everything sci-fi have to offer...

I don't think that's the case.

Take AT-43, for example. The game felt like something out of the pages of a french bande dessinée drawn by Moebius or Enki Bilal. It had space soviets and rocket-riding gorillas, amongst many other crazy, off the wall ideas, yet noone would look at an AT-43 Karmann and say it's a Jokaero ripoff. (And vice-versa. The GW jokaero sculpt is entirely different to Rackham's take on the "space-monkeys with guns" trope). Rackham went down because of some deeply misguided business choices, not for the lack of appeal of their miniatures and setting.

Same goes for Infinity. One could argue that 40k is not as much an inspiration for Corvus Belli as it is Mutant Chronicles' Warzone, but the anime/manga angle, a setting deeply rooted in contemporary sci-fi and a distinct "future military" feel help setting Infinity apart from other sci-fi games, past and present.

Being different from GW's Warhammer 40k is not only possible, it's even easy.

I love the look of CB's models. A fusion of cyberpunk and anime. Whats not to like? =o]

I like what Mantic is doing. I like the look and costs of their figgies. I've been thinking of using Pig Iron's models for Tomorrow's War, but the Corperation might do well also. Especially if they release a 'not-spacehulk- game or spaceship boarding rules.

Agent_Tremolo wrote:

The Dwarf Wolf wrote:If you take a look at 40k, what GW left for other companies to use? Serious, aparently they alredy used everything sci-fi have to offer...

I don't think that's the case.

Take AT-43, for example. The game felt like something out of the pages of a french bande dessinée drawn by Moebius or Enki Bilal. It had space soviets and rocket-riding gorillas, amongst many other crazy, off the wall ideas, yet noone would look at an AT-43 Karmann and say it's a Jokaero ripoff. (And vice-versa. The GW jokaero sculpt is entirely different to Rackham's take on the "space-monkeys with guns" trope). Rackham went down because of some deeply misguided business choices, not for the lack of appeal of their miniatures and setting.

Same goes for Infinity. One could argue that 40k is not as much an inspiration for Corvus Belli as it is Mutant Chronicles' Warzone, but the anime/manga angle, a setting deeply rooted in contemporary sci-fi and a distinct "future military" feel help setting Infinity apart from other sci-fi games, past and present.

Being different from GW's Warhammer 40k is not only possible, it's even easy.

So Mantic took the common ideais, those that never belong to anyone, made his own interpretations of it, sold it for lower prices and BANG!!! Was called a GW rip-off. From that point on, Mantic will be a GW-rip-off forever, nonetheles what they produce... Look at those corporation troops, they have a great fluff, a tottally distinct apearance, and people still call them "IG-copy".

Take a deep look at Mantic range, and the only line i see that dont make sense (except as a GW rip-off) are the Chaos Dwarves, all the rest is greatly done, very original (in design and fluff, when the last one exists) and normally for great prices. Maybe it is easy to do things different from GW, but if you get close to the common lore they used to build their scenario, them you are ripp-offing them?

AgeOfEgos wrote:

Chaplain Pallantide wrote:Or maybe we have had too much of GW's heroic scale and when something is sculpted close to true scale, it looks out of place? Just a thought...

Yeah I thought maybe it was my Cadian bias as well--but after comparing to Infinity, etc.---just something seems off.

I think the main reason the scale/proportions look slightly off is due to the fact the designs are very "top heavy" by nature. The chunky helmets and the shoulder pads make the body look much broader/larger than it actually is, combine this with the lack of armour on the legs (which they really should have) and form fitting boots and it throws the natural sense of scale your eyes read way off.

You'll probably find if you get these models in person they will look fine, also keep in mind that a 2D picture will alter the perception of a 3D object.


Just my two penny's worth...

Dwarf Wolf, here's a few little pointers as to how Mantic have been marketing themselves as a "rip off".
Dwarves:
They have an organ gun, much like GW's multi barrel cannon.
They have "berserkers" who have red beards and are bare chested.
The rest are all pretty generic fantasy stuff, so I won't complain about them at all. I think their dwarves are nice enough, especially for the price.
Undead:
They have Vampire Knights. They have skull slinging catapults (admittedly, the Screaming Skull Catapult is an old mini and the idea of firing heads is originally tolkien.)

Apart from those, the rest of the Undead are defensibly generic.

Orcs:
Their orcs follow the GW aesthetic. They ride boars into battle. They are accompanied by sneaky goblins.
Apart from those, the rest of the Ork stuff is generic enough.
Goblins: The goblins wear robes like the GW ones, apparently (look at the mawbeast mini) and they have big "squig" like warbeasties. Apart from that, it's all generic fantasy.

Dark Elves:
Their dark elves take strongly from the GW aesthetic. They have assassins, their dark elves use crossbows like GW's ones.

Now, that's their fantasy property, which is mostly pleasingly generic. But it's really obvious that a lot of the other stuff is GW rip off intentionally. I don't see anything wrong with that, but you need to at least admit that it's the case. Otherwise you undermine your arguments by not accepting the obvious .
For their Sci Fi property, we have corporation, who I am willing to admit, are a good take on humans in space and not too imperial. We've got Rebs, which I am also eager to see, I think they sound original.
Marauders are quite obviously a rip off of GW space orks, and Forgefathers of Squats. (Note: I don't mind either of them being rip offs, but they are.).
Veer-myn look like space skaven.

Tl, dr; it's bloomin' obvious why people say mantic are ripping off GW, because they are. I'm not bothered by it, I just buy whatever figures I think look the best for the money I am willing to pay out.

^ I think the issue is more to do with the last 60 pages of this thread largely being a broken record of everyone and their dog banging on about the "GW rip-off" angle. There is no doubt that it massively angers a large majority of people on this forum who are annoyed at what they see as the theft of IP from GW, and would like to see Mantic sued/ shut-down/ gone bankrupt so that this doesn't happen any more. The debate over whether they are or not is largely meaningless as people have already formed fixed opinions one way or the other and are unlikely to change them. I agree that parts of their model range are copying GW, but I also do not care in the slightest, as I have no love of, or attachment to, Games Workshop PLC.

Same goes for my Android phone. Are they misusing certain Apple-held patents? Probably. Do I care? Hell no. All I know is that my phone was cheaper and better than an iphone when I bought it, and the same applies to my Mantic armies.

If Mantic announced bankruptcy tommorow, the vast majority of Dakka would be cheering from the rafters, followed by going into a GW-whine thread to complain about the next price rise. I find the conflict of interest quite interesting, GW fans seem largely unaware that, even if they choose not to buy a single product from a competitor, simply having a valid competitor will be a good thing for GW in the long run, as it will force them to start doing things right again, like they used to.

Thats been bothering me too. Worst case scenario the heads are already attached to the bodies. You know theres a reason why people like multi part models mantic, something you usually dont do at all

All the heads and arms on the Corporation are cast as separate pieces. This thread has way too many people like you making false claims to attack. I already posted pictures of seperate heads in this thread, jeez.

The only thing I'm not as sold on is the heavy weapons though... I like em, but they just feel a little too short & stubby to me, mostly just in the barrels.. maybe I can extend em a bit with some plastirods.

Sounds like a good idea, really easy conversion too since the end of the barrel is a seperate piece.

Given that dwarves are ultimately derived from Viking mythology (via Tolkien, admittedly), I don't really think that either GW or Mantic was being particularly original in giving them red-haired, bare-chested berserkers. "Berserk" means "bare skin", after all... and earlier depictions of berserkers (from Roman depictions of their more primitive enemies, to the Viking sagas, to The Hulk) frequently have them getting at least partially naked.

Anyway. Back on topic. I like the look of the Corporation minis a lot, especially the Captain. And the ratmen look pretty cool too. By the way, human-sized ratmen, who live in the sewers and plot humanity's destruction. first appear in Fafhrd & the Grey Mouser stories, predating GW's existence by several decades.

@Rolt: I completely agree with you. I think because of the helmet and shoulder pads, it does make the hips/legs look smaller and out of proportion. I think in real life with one's hands on said models that they will look fine. I may be some for the heck of it, even though I haven't gamed in a long time and unfortunately live in an area of the country with little to no gaming....sigh...

Pacific wrote:Not interesting to you Fetterkey, but the general point of this thread is for posting news and rumour about Mantic for people who are interested in reading about it.

Just because I have a negative opinion about Mantic's latest releases doesn't mean my opinion is invalid or off-topic.

AFAIK, Alessio explicitely said that Mantic wants to go back and revive the "Golden Age of GW" with its Warpath line and rules.
So it is not a coincidence that they copy every rejected project from that time, but their idea of a strategy. All we are saying is that it is a bad strategy and that they should bury their grudge with their former employee and arrive in the real world. Without a concept, they stay a garage company, which would be a damn shame considering their potential.

BTW Warmachine sells more in USA than Warhammer Fantasy, followed by Hordes, then Malifaux. Not sure where Mantic stands.

I was just making the point that this discussion has been going on since page 1 of this thread, with no sign of abating. That Mantic is 'ripping off' or 'inspired' by GW (language use depends on whether you agree with it or not) would be obvious to a blind and deaf man who has lived in a cave in the amazon for his entire life, and has no concept of light or sound. I don't think that is an issue here at all, and if it's something you don't agree with - well, then you can exercise that right as a consumer and not buy any. I have no interest at all in Warmachine, the concept doesn't appeal to me at all, even though at the same time, I can understand the appeal of the game. But, I don't argue the toss with the game's fans that their game and models are flawed. If I did so, I think it would be more than a little sado-masochistic; I don't log into the forum typing something like "Oooh look at you, with your large steampunk bits, and your aggressive style of play", with leather cat o-nine-tails on my naked lap "Ooh, dirty, dirty big metal miniatures!" which is what it almost seems like sometimes having read this topic raise it's head for the 20th time.

But even if you can't get over that hurdle, at least try and recognise the following: They have recognised a gap in the market - be it ideas no longer (or never supported) by GW, such as 'Dwarves in space' or 'rats in space'. They have recognised that not everyone has the $300-$400 necessary to make a horde WFB army, in the way that GW intends for the game to be played, and have released a cheaper alternative which can cater for those who might not otherwise be able to take part. If the number of special rules have become too many, they have released extremely neat rules settings for both the fantasy and sci-fi setting, which are actually a great deal of fun. For those who loved to play the likes of Heroquest and Space Hulk, and lament that there is no longer that cheap 'hook' to get a newcomer into the hobby, or just to play a quick, no hassle game over the course of an hour, they have again released games (in Dwarf Kings Hold & now Project Pandora) that have catered to people who want that option.

I cannot understand, how in any shape or form, anything that Mantic has done has been bad for wargamers. And in fact, as ScarletSquig points out, if it even makes the King sat on the top of the pile (who has become rather fat and lazy of late) of perhaps upping their game a little, then we all might be better off because of it. A monopoly is never, ever good for the consumer, as has been evident in the perennial price rises, switch to shoddy material, and essentially telling an entire region of the world to feth-off, which has been the track record of GW over the past year.

Kroothawk wrote:BTW Warmachine sells more in USA than Warhammer Fantasy, followed by Hordes, then Malifaux. Not sure where Mantic stands.

Do you have a source for that? I generally take your word for what ever claims you put out, but would love a source for that one.


Cheers

Gorlack wrote:

Kroothawk wrote:BTW Warmachine sells more in USA than Warhammer Fantasy, followed by Hordes, then Malifaux. Not sure where Mantic stands.

Do you have a source for that? I generally take your word for what ever claims you put out, but would love a source for that one.
Cheers

http://icv2.com/articles/markets/21404.html

OK...

This is the MANTIC News (and rumors) Thread.

It is probably time to take all of the stuff that isn't news, rumors or discussion thereof to another thread, one that isn't located in the News & Rumors forum.

Dakka Discussions maybe?

All Off Topic discussion will be deleted as such, and warnings, and possibly suspensions, will be handed out for continuing any off topic posting in this thread.

Thanks!

I got an e-mail from Mantic that seemed to indicate they had pictures up of their "8th race" rat guys. The link just leads to the corporation guys though. Anyone have the rat pics? I'd be interested to see them.

kestral wrote:I got an e-mail from Mantic that seemed to indicate they had pictures up of their "8th race" rat guys. The link just leads to the corporation guys though. Anyone have the rat pics? I'd be interested to see them.

Here you go:

link to earlier in the thread

Alpharius wrote:OK...

This is the MANTIC News (and rumors) Thread.

It is probably time to take all of the stuff that isn't news, rumors or discussion thereof to another thread, one that isn't located in the News & Rumors forum.

Dakka Discussions maybe?

All Off Topic discussion will be deleted as such, and warnings, and possibly suspensions, will be handed out for continuing any off topic posting in this thread.

Thanks!

new thread below

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/431287.page#3939216

lord marcus wrote:new thread below

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/431287.page#3939216

Rats, I just created a new thread too!

Mine's here. But mine's already got a first post.

What first post?

Ian Sturrock wrote:"Berserk" means "bare skin", after all...

The more commonly accepted etymology is "bear coat" (from the idea that one slew a bear), actually.

The vitriol against Space rats just proves the nature of the Internet. Since 3rd edition came out, I have seen posts about how GW should do Hrud figures over and over and over again. People that have no idea of this and wonder where "Space rats" came from probably really just haven't been around long enough- it's not their fault for that.

As for the nature of copying GW, the only way not to have something be similar to GW is to go back in time and start a sci-fi range in 1985. Since then the 40K line has all races within normal reason covered:

Humans both good/evil
Lizardmen and frogs in space,
Orks,
Goblins,
Ogres,
Halflings,
Generic Space-Knights,
Space Knight vampires,
Space Knight Vikings/Celts,
Elves,
Dark Elves,
insectoid aliens,
undead/robots,
Aliens that resemble near-future humans (Tau- I really see no manga influence),
both good and bad Space-dwarves,
frikkin' space-alien centaurs (Zoats- old Tyranid slave-race)

As said, "there is nothing new under the sun". *shrugs*

If I made a race of snakes for a miniatures line, Confrontation players would scream "Copying Ophidians". I always thought to blend bugs and technology to make arachnids with upright centaur-style bodies wielding actual guns, not bio-organism throwers. But that's just Starship Troopers, if you've read the actual book, not the movie.

Ohh! I could make enigmatic crystalline beings! Wait, that's Void: The Maelstrom.

AegisGrimm wrote:The vitriol against Space rats just proves the nature of the Internet. Since 3rd edition came out, I have seen posts about how GW should do Hrud figures over and over and over again. People that have no idea of this and wonder where "Space rats" came from probably really just haven't been around long enough- it's not their fault for that.

As for the nature of copying GW, the only way not to have something be similar to GW is to go back in time and start a sci-fi range in 1985. Since then the 40K line has all races within normal reason covered:

Humans both good/evil
Lizardmen and frogs in space,
Orks,
Goblins,
Ogres,
Halflings,
Generic Space-Knights,
Space Knight vampires,
Space Knight Vikings/Celts,
Elves,
Dark Elves,
insectoid aliens,
undead/robots,
Aliens that resemble near-future humans (Tau- I really see no manga influence),
both good and bad Space-dwarves,
frikkin' space-alien centaurs (Zoats- old Tyranid slave-race)

As said, "there is nothing new under the sun". *shrugs*

If I made a race of snakes for a miniatures line, Confrontation players would scream "Copying Ophidians". I always thought to blend bugs and technology to make arachnids with upright centaur-style bodies wielding actual guns, not bio-organism throwers. But that's just Starship Troopers, if you've read the actual book, not the movie.

Ohh! I could make enigmatic crystalline beings! Wait, that's Void: The Maelstrom.

Whyle this should not be here, but in the shine new discussion thread about Mantic, you got my second exalt on Dakka with that post. Thanks for that. You just made all my point...