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... and then some by adding a FAQ to the newly posted Codex Blood Angels.

It crashes everytime I try and open it.

Works fine for me. Make sure you have the latest version of Adobe Reader (ver. 8).

Dante is still listed as both Jump Infantry and Infantry.

There is still no reference to full rules for the summary of wargear.

There is still no rule forcing models to disembark from their Drop Pod when it lands.

It works, just that the direct link for some reason doesn't function. Probably that silly disclaimer you have to agree to with any GW pdf file.

I hate big PDF files like that, so slow to navigate.

Posted By Hans on 08/01/2007 10:55 AM
It works, just that the direct link for some reason doesn't function. Probably that silly disclaimer you have to agree to with any GW pdf file.

I hate big PDF files like that, so slow to navigate.

You are using the fast and efficient FoxIt Reader, not Adobe's bloatware, right?

http://www.foxitsoftware.com/pdf/rd_intro.php

Does it still allow a typhoon tornado?

Yes they do. Still trying to wrap my head around my new army codex... ung.

Nice to see it actually come up in a timely fashion, just as it was rumoured to happen.

Now if we could just get the FAQ's squared away in such a fashion, we would be in business.

I missed it in WD, so this is my first time seeing the new format for marines.

WOW HOW #(@*ing ANNOYING IS THIS FORMAT! Why put half the useful information in one place, and half somewhere else? Why not have one listing and maybe a summary sheet of points and stats?

Lots of options lost, no commanders on bikes for example.

I like that scouts no longer produce death company. In fact I like the whole death company revision. But why are scouts elites?

Can they take Inquisition allies?

Posted By Kid_Kyoto on 08/01/2007 8:19 PM

WOW HOW #(@*ing ANNOYING IS THIS FORMAT! Why put half the useful information in one place, and half somewhere else? Why not have one listing and maybe a summary sheet of points and stats?

Annoying as hell, isn't it?

Get used to it. This is part of the "New Jervis Plan" for streamlining 40K.

Not because they're 'elite', but so you can't field what GW feels is an unfluffy all scout army.

Posted By Ghaz on 08/01/2007 10:19 PM

But why are scouts elites?

Not because they're 'elite', but so you can't field what GW feels is an unfluffy all scout army.

Silly, silly GW.  If that's the issue cap them at 0-3 or something.  Now they have to compete with much better units for precious elite slots.

Posted By Ghaz on 08/01/2007 10:19 PM

But why are scouts elites?

Not because they're 'elite', but so you can't field what GW feels is an unfluffy all scout army.

Huh? Scouts are not elite, they are basic space marines in training. The 10th company of most space marine chapters is nothing but scouts.

This new format is really terrible.

And whats with all this combat squad nonsense? Way to make a razorback a useless transport option...

I don't understand why they repeat everything, why have a simplified pointless unit list, and then in part two have exactly the same information but with proper options? Its a total waste of time and effort.

What does the babyish list in part one tell you? Nothing thats helpful at all. Just the basic stat line, no points costs at all, and half of the wargear that are options...

How does needless duplication "streamline" 40k?

This is why I rarely play 40k anymore. Why oh why are GW taking this ridiculous route in Game development? If it wasn't for the variant army lists from forgeworld I probably would have stopped my interest in 40k years ago.

Isn't it obvious that the first part was the "tease" in the June White Dwarf and the second part is the real army list?

I don't think the format is too terrible. Don't like the streamlining, but other than that...

Greets
Schepp himself

EDIT: Ok the format is terrible...The rules are mixmashed and the only reason I can think of is to make more money, sorry, GW screwed us again. My bad.

Ok the download is for free, but still.

I have to say I don't think that combat squads make Razorbacks useless at all. In fact, it makes them that much stronger in my opinion. Now you can take a 10 man squad, with a Razorback. You can put 5 of them in it, and the other 5 go wherever you want. Or better yet, keep them as a 10 man squad and have the Razorback as a rolling fire platform and cover! This is a very nice option in my mind. I noticed this with the DA book and the studio confirmed with me that it was legal to do with the army.

Jeff

Posted By JHall on 08/02/2007 5:56 AM
I have to say I don't think that combat squads make Razorbacks useless at all. In fact, it makes them that much stronger in my opinion.

Jeff

They aren't useless.  They are just different and players are unhappy with adapting. 

Posted By JHall on 08/02/2007 5:56 AM
I have to say I don't think that combat squads make Razorbacks useless at all. In fact, it makes them that much stronger in my opinion. Now you can take a 10 man squad, with a Razorback. You can put 5 of them in it, and the other 5 go wherever you want. Or better yet, keep them as a 10 man squad and have the Razorback as a rolling fire platform and cover! This is a very nice option in my mind. I noticed this with the DA book and the studio confirmed with me that it was legal to do with the army.

Jeff

The one big problem is that anytime you play a game with Escalation the unit can't deploy on the table (as it has a dedicated transport) and a unit that starts in Reserve cannot be split into combat squads (for some strange reason).

That means you have to have your one big 10 man squad now walk onto the table alongside the Razorback they can't fit in. Basically Escalation really puts a damper on this idea.

 

Haven't seen escalation in any major tourney lately > trend?

Re: Why Scouts are elites

Short form: Scouts are elites because too many people used 2 small scout squads fill their troops choices and then packed the list with everything else. This offended the sensabilities of the GW game designers - who felt that they had already made the Tactical marines some of the best basic troops in the game. You have to admit - using only two scout squads for your basic rank and file troops *is* pretty "unfluffy". Call it part of the Designer's goal to make the codex make the armies look more like the way they "should" look on the field.

Fluff reason:
Scouts are not supposed to be the primary fighting force of the chapter. Tactical marines are. The Elites slot is not only to represent the quality of troops, it is also there to represent relative rarity. Since Scouts make up about 10% of a chapter - as do Terminators, they should have similar "rarity".

Last argument - yet unproven:
Neither the Dark Angels, nor the Blood Angels are famous for large formations of Scouts partaking of military actions on their own. They both tend to divide up their scouts to support the actions of their more experienced brethren (ie the DA Deathwing and Ravenwing). Therefore - they don't need rules to allow the creation of a "Scout companies" - since they generally don't fight that way. (it's a "specfic chapter" type of thing) This one is the weakest arguement - I grant you - but until SM redux comes out - it is still possible that this is a "named chapter thing".

RE: Razorbacks
Just a thought, I suppose. Would the razorbacks have a similar interaction as the Pathfinder Devilfish and the Pathfinder's Scouting rule? The FAQ gives the Pathfinders the right to deploy on the field and just have their Devilfish in reserve - even though it is the squad's dedicated transport. That sets a precedent. Since the Razorback would be the dedicated trasnport for only "half" the squad - could it be rules that the rest of the squad be deployed on the field?

Note: mostly playing devil's advocate here. Honestly - my DA aren't my tourney army - so i really don't care. We'll probably end up house ruling it...

Posted By keichi246 on 08/02/2007 7:30 AM
Re: Why Scouts are elites

Short form: Scouts are elites because too many people used 2 small scout squads fill their troops choices and then packed the list with everything else. This offended the sensabilities of the GW game designers - who felt that they had already made the Tactical marines some of the best basic troops in the game. You have to admit - using only two scout squads for your basic rank and file troops *is* pretty "unfluffy". Call it part of the Designer's goal to make the codex make the armies look more like the way they "should" look on the field.

Fluff reason:
Scouts are not supposed to be the primary fighting force of the chapter. Tactical marines are. The Elites slot is not only to represent the quality of troops, it is also there to represent relative rarity. Since Scouts make up about 10% of a chapter - as do Terminators, they should have similar "rarity".

I applaud your efforts.  Of course the same thing could be done by making tac squads 2+, the way IG platoons are 1+ but I digress...

Scouts are elite becuase the concept of putting 2+ next to the tactical squad description was too much for the game designers.  Same result now, people can still take 2 cheap tac squads and then break the list, only "losing" 20 points in the exchange.  1+ seems to work for the Tau Fire Warriors

The whole format sucks, but apparently it is what Jervis' child likes.  I am convinced we are referring to the child he sees in the mirror every morning, or who he placates with the binky and blanky in his desk drawer after every meeting.

 

I applaud the fact that A) they released an official update to a codex in WD (for once making it worth buying), and B) they actually realesed a faq for it. It's not a perfect list and the formatting is off but it's still a real bright spot for a company that hasn't had a whole lot to recommend itself lately.

That said, improvements could be made.

Can we keep the discussion to valuable criticisms of the codex and stay away from the personal attacks on Jervis? We get it, you don't like him, do you have anything productive to say about the codex?

Personally, I like the way the DC work now. Easy and now doesn't discourage taking terminators or other expensive troops and doesn't encourage taking naked Vet Sgt's to get the extra powerfist.

I wish they FAQ was a little more in depth though. Had the Techmarine not being able to use his plasma cutter in cc been FAQ'd before?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Elite scouts will also probably reduce their sales. Many players build their armies by filling out the force organization chart. Especially with Combat Squads, it's tough to fill up the troop slots.

Between Vets/Vet Assault Squads, Terminators and Dreadnoughts, Elites tend to disappear awfully fast. The only slot with more competition is Heavy Support.

Posted By Ozymandias on 08/02/2007 9:45 AM
Can we keep the discussion to valuable criticisms of the codex and stay away from the personal attacks on Jervis? We get it, you don't like him, do you have anything productive to say about the codex?

Ozymandias, King of Kings

Uhhh... Jervis is personally at fault for codex issues so it is a total legit criticism of the codex by going after him. He admitted at Adepticon that there was errors in the Dark Angel codex and refused to fix them until the next Dark Angel codex.

He also admitted that he pretty much ignores player feedback and concern by just just saying "I love my job" The guy is a total jack off who doesn't understand the game, but uses his 10? year old kid's ideas and feedback to effect everyone else. The guys needs to screw off and go join wizkids to work on click games where his "stream lining" and dumbing down of the game might be welcomed.

As for the codex lay out.... they attempted to copy the codex layout of 2nd edition books but failed like a stone zeppelin. In 2nd ed every unit had its own page of full of special rules and stats, in the current 4th ed book most units have some rules, alot of fluff on half of a page... in large font. It's like they are in college trying to trick the professor by submitting a 2 page required report by enlarging the font of 1 pages worth of work!

It does not say that Mephiston cannot party in Las Vegas.

- G

I'm REALLY not a fan of the combat squads and the reduced options.  Any time you make fewer options to spend your points you limit the ability to spend points efficiently.  This means you'll see a few lists rise to the top that maximize what's given.  You either play these lists or you play something that's less effective.  Less options = less ability to field an effective army that's different.  I don't want my army looking like everyone else's army. Combat squads should be an option and people not sentenced to them; the only people who should be forced into combat squads are the ridged Ultramarines.

Putting scouts as a 0-2 troop option would have been better. The fact that they don't give DC is a natural incentive not to take a lot of them anyways.

While Mephiston is nasty, he's still rather vulnerable.  No invo save for your Chapter Master?? Wha?  You'd have figured that he would have at least gotten a 5+.  Note that his gaze only works with folks in btb with him.  That means anyone in the 2nd/3rd are free to pound away; orks, put your nobs there.  Any rending unit like Stealers or Blood Letters, mobs or ork choppas and Demoneets will work him over.

With assaulters going troops, I don't understand why they cut back on the options. 15pts a plasma pistol? Maybe 10 but not 15. No flamers?? What? That part confuses me as every other marine assault squad can take flamers but BA cant?  huh.  Now you have a lot of boring looking assault squads running around.

I can't find a good reason why they took out SHP.  It's like taking away Interogator Chaplins for DA- a fluffy unit that was cool to field.  SP are still used in the Honor Guard and the fluff text still says they play a vital importance to the chapter soooooo... huh again.

I DO like what they did with the supercharged engines.  No more mobile bombs!  Victory!
I DO like what they did with DC.  Gets rid of everyone whineing about how we got them for "free" and all those other old tired misconceptions.  This finally puts all that to rest and we can get on with the game.

As a rough draft, this isn't a bad start but also needs a lot of work.

**EDIT BY MOOPY**
Mephiston isn't the CM, my bad! However he's the only one to over come the BR so that would still warrent an invo save.

 

Yeh, assault marines are the primary troops of BA. Nice to have the download tho to put in a binder and helps to cut back on opponents whining of inconsitancies and cries of cheese. C-squads blow like no other and still remain the worst idea with this rewrite.