Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

That's a very blinkered view of academia, FYI. I've never been taught a single "absolute truth" by a lecturer or professor. Well, except that Clint Eastwood is the greatest Western gunslinger protagonist in European cinema, but that's surely obvious.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:The actual issue is that GW has little real competition.

If Gamers were exposed to Infinity, Kings of War/Warpath, Warmachine/Hordes, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars/Uncharted Seas/Firestorm Armada etc not to mention the countless historicals systems from the start and could make informed judgements on their hobby at the buy-in point, GW would have no choice but to change the way it does business or its dominant position would be threatened.

The only question left is how can this be achieved?

I dont fully disagree with you, but a little perspective helps sometimes.

I have never lived in a town with a GW shop. From day 1 I was exposed to a number of games, systems, etc. I went with GW for two reasons back then:
1. It had the staying power of having survived 15 years where many of the other games around me had come and gone when I was still a little kid
2. Scale....not one of the other games people tout as competition to 40k has yet offered me a game of sufficient size...most of them seem to be competing with Rogue Trader if anything.

Since then I have tried my hand at Infinity (to asian for my taste), warmachine (turned off by the players in my stores constant hate of GW), malifaux (meh), Firestorm Armada (no one played, wound up using the models to play Full Thrust), but I did pick up Dust Warfare...now I just need to convince other people to play it with me. This hobby only becomes an either or issue when you start dealing with the demographic who buy GW product as opposed to who they are marketing it it to.

This thread actually turned into a "what is art" discussion. This is embarrassing.

Chimera_Calvin wrote:The actual issue is that GW has little real competition.

Regardless of how they 'see themselves' or whether they want to be a 'boutique product' (or whatever corporate flim-flam people feel a need to throw into this debate as justification for their seemingly endless price rises) the points are simple.

Compared to their competitors:
1. They have very poor and unbalanced rules.
2. Their miniatures are vastly overcosted for the quantity and quality of the casts themselves (finecast are easily some of the worst resin pieces you will find despite their premium pricetag, the plastics are just as good as any other companies but again the price-per-model is about the highest you will find).
3. They do not communicate with their customers, accept no feedback or advertise effectively (or indeed, at all).
4. They do not support factions (or whole games!) for excessive periods of time.

BUT:
5. They have a very well-established background that (for all the recent Necron-related retconning) has wide appeal and acceptance amongst the gaming community.
6. Their plastic kits have a much greater degree of flexibilty to customise models than normal and have more and crisper detail than other kits (due to design rather than casting).
7. They have a unique chain of brick-and-mortar stores effectively guaranteeing them a self-perpetuating player base that has no exposure to other games. Also their 'one stop shop' approach by providing paints, brushes, tools, scenery etc. means their customers do not need to go to other stores to look for gaming essentials, further limiting the likelihood of coming accross competitors.
8. They have a wide range of 'gateway' products such as Black Library novels and computer games that provide exposure outwith the normal gaming community and raises their public profile alongside their branded B&M stores.
9. They have a successful and well run schools league and other club tie-ins to encourage (particularly) younger gamers to invest in them.

In order for GW to have an incentive to fix 1-4 they need to be challenged on 5-9. Companies are getting there slowly on points 5 and 6 but for GW to address the issues that people have with them the key is to challenge the public perception that GW is the only show in town.

If Gamers were exposed to Infinity, Kings of War/Warpath, Warmachine/Hordes, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars/Uncharted Seas/Firestorm Armada etc not to mention the countless historicals systems from the start and could make informed judgements on their hobby at the buy-in point, GW would have no choice but to change the way it does business or its dominant position would be threatened.

The only question left is how can this be achieved?

Until then GW will just increase prices.
The real tipping point for GW will be when enough people have left, that you cannot guarantee a game.

Sidstyler wrote:

Rayvon wrote:What an arrogant condescending post, not to mention incorrect.

Would you say it's more or less condescending than the guy basically saying "I have a Cobra, I make a lot of money, and I think the prices are fine."?

I hate that gak so much, lol. "Tires for my sports car cost almost as much as your army, so you have no right to complain!" Must be fething nice. I work my ass off too you know, still can't afford GW.

Which is how it should be, apparently. Us inferior, bottom-feeding dregs would just hurt GW and their brand by being seen in their prestigious stores, playing with their world-renowned miniatures. We were wrong to get all uppity and start thinking we were worthy enough to play, we all need to stop kidding ourselves and go back to wallowing in our shitholes, enjoying our horrible, cheap, garbage pasttimes.

Exalted.

Even though I can afford GW's products I refuse to buy them just on this principle. Do they really want a new generation of gamers that are mix of rich snobs and their spoiled offspring? They have lost their soul in pursuit of a quick buck. No wonder all of these "other" games are filled with GW "haters" as they've been kicked to the curb by something they've invested their time and money into.

I'll leave GW to the hoighty-toightys of this world. I work my arse off for my cash and if the (non local) gaming community now thinks you have to earn a certain wage to play GW's games I'll stick with other companies who are less discerning over what amount of money I earn.

I believe the advent of 6th ed. will truly show what kind of person GW wants to cater to. Sure I can afford to drop £45+ on a rulebook with a week's notice, but how many other gamers and/or parents can? When I got into this hobby, it was funded by the bank of mum and dad initially (then a paper round). If I said to my mum I *needed* (let's not kid ourselves here, this is pretty much a compulsary purchase) that kind of cash with only a weeks notice she'd tell me where to shove it.

orkybenji wrote:This thread actually turned into a "what is art" discussion. This is embarrassing.

Well, not really. If GW and art have some overlap, one needs to look at GW from the art point of view. Art is generally something that is more expensive.

The winner of last year's Turner Prize. A bin (and not even a very well made one, from the looks of things).



Seriously, this is art.

People have been discussing for a long time what exactly it is that constitutes 'art'. For the purposes of this discussion, you could say in this context that at least GW is promoting some form of creativity on behalf of the kids that take it up. It is perhaps less now than ever before (pre-made terrain/basing/'paint your marines in this colour'), but it is still a lot more involved than most other forms of entertainment you care to mention.

Agamemnon2 wrote:Painting 40k miniatures is to art what a tricycle is to owning a Kawasaki Ninja.

Pompous to the last as always Aggy.

I got three words for ya:

1. French.
2. Golden.
3. Demon.

I view modeling as my artistic release/expression, and get significantly more enjoyment (now that I'm an old timer) out of posing and painting minis than the games I tend to play.

This is the only area GW excells IMO, it's quite nice to get a ton of leftover knickknacks with each purchase, and if you hoard them, a quite substantial bits box will be left after any army construction. This used to justify the cost for me, as the value of purchase combined with the potential conversions was much nicer than a single-pose metal model with minimum (if any) extra bits.

But when you factor in the scale of the game that is played (2500), and the fact that units are just grindmachines with few tactical abilities other than "buy more guys for your units"... And it gets old IMO...

Barksdale wrote:
Second, increases in quality of the plastic kits (I will admit finecast is definately a step back). The plastic kits these days are highly customizable, and include a ton of bitz for other projects. The kits can swapped around cross range and inter-range with the fantasy line to create even more options.

This is absolutely true. No other miniature company approaches the quality and customizability of the GW kits.

I mean, you can get an awesome and large competitive army by spending $100/month for one year. I just don't see how people view this as expensive. There just isn't another hobby that gives you years of enjoyment of a relatively little price.

The real problem is that by increasing their prices, they have made it more difficult to enter the hobby - especially for younger players who don't have a lot of money. While it's tempting to say, "Who cares? Get a job if you want some minis." This single fact dramatically restricts the potential growth of the game systems they own.

Yes. I agree that you can get a kick ass army on a $100 / month budget. That is how I built mine! But
1) The average parent of a 13 year old isn't willing to spend $100 / month on warhammer 40K models for their kid. Not to mention paint and such. A kid comes into my store and says, "Mom I want that." and she says, "HOW MUCH! No. Get something else."
2) Players want to play the game now. Not in a year. This is true for everyone, but especially true for younger players (13 - 16 years). If you told a teenager that they would have to pay hundreds of dollars a month for a year before they could play their first game, they would probably just go buy a PC game instead.

If you think about it, you can see that GW has been aware of this problem for a long time. Some (not all) of their new ideas over the last 10 years have been designed to address exactly this problem, with mixed success. For example, White Dwarf articles with rules for "Warhammer Skirmish" or "40K in a flash" are designed to make the game playable with a dramatically lower model count. Likewise with the RPGs "Deathwatch" and "Dark Heresy". There is Mordheim and Bloodbowl. You can also see it in some of the "over-powered" 40K armies (e.g. Grey Knights - I'm not looking for an argument) which allow you to play a competitive 1500 point army with little or no WH40K experience and just a couple of boxes of minis (20 - 25 models). People bitch that they're OP, but GK probably wasn't intended for 40K veterans - they were meant to be a starter army so that GW could get some new players.

Without new people investing in mini's, GW will die when the old players stop buying. That's a fact. And higher prices mean less new players.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
Why raise the entry barrier to a game with an already high entry barrier?

Exactly.

The fact that we now compare GW miniatures with the tires on an AC Cobra these days is just nuts. This used to be a fun, stupid game you played with your buddies in a garage. I dunno what happened, but I'm not really a fan of it.

skkipper wrote:

as a parent and in the top 5%, I am ok with my kids playing warhammer.

Warhammer is a hobby. it is artistic and challenging and cheap.
for a $1000 you can go pickup almost any 2k army and the rules and keep you busy for years.
GW is way cheaper then my other hobbies, like car restoration and kite boarding.
Hell i spend more on booze in a year then I do in games workshop.
the Ork bommas were cool i picked up three. GW will not go out of business. They will keep chugging along.

haters will hate.
people need to look at other hobbies and see the warhammer is not that expensive.

This argument always comes up in these sorts of discussions, but the problem with it is that on a very significant level you are comparing apples to oranges. GW's market saturation is beginning to deteriorate, and it is facing increasing competition. The cost of Games Workshop's products are especially relevant within this context.

When you say that GW is a cheap hobby, what you are really saying is that wargaming is a cheap hobby, and that is entirely correct. But as consumers have a greater degree of choice when it comes to wargaming, the cost of GW's products relative to that market is significant.

As a parent who knows nothing about wargaming, you are going to buy Warhammer stuff if your kid asks for Warhammer stuff. GW's large share of the market and its advertising has a lot to do with those kids being aware of Warhammer. This was especially true in a pre-internet era when a high street presence was a particularly important part of influencing brand recognition and customer consideration.

However, GW's dominance within the realm of fantasy wargaming is being challenged, and these challengers are becoming increasingly successful. Think, for example, of the kid who sees Monsterpocalypse on the shelf at Barnes and Noble, and later wants to branch out into WarmaHordes. What about the parent who goes to the FLGS and sees Warhammer on the shelf along with Mantic products, Infinity, Flames of War, Dust Warfare, Malifaux, Dystopian Wars, etc. etc.? What about the parent whose kid wants to play Warhammer but who can't find anyone in the local area who plays it? What if that parent finds that there is a large community of gamers playing Dust Warfare?

Games Workshop is no longer the Aplha and Omega of fantasy wargaming. So when you talk about Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 as a hobby, you can't simply compare it to every other possible hobby as if those products are the sum total of the wargaming hobby. There is a broad world beyond Games Workshop. That world is growing every day, and mostly at the expense of Games Workshop's market share. Customers and potential customers have significantly more and easier access to information than they did 20, 10, or even 5 years ago. It is fair to say that GW's customers are rather sophisticated in the sense of being educated, informed, discerning consumers. They will, and do consider Games Workshop's products within the broader wargaming market when that information is accessible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Agamemnon2 wrote:That's a very blinkered view of academia, FYI. I've never been taught a single "absolute truth" by a lecturer or professor. Well, except that Clint Eastwood is the greatest Western gunslinger protagonist in European cinema, but that's surely obvious.

Yul Brynner, man, Yul Brynner. No one comes close. It isn't the quantity that counts, it's the quality. But that is hideously off topic.

To be slightly more on topic, assembling and painting a model may not be considered "fine art," but in terms of an activity for your kids, wargaming is something that encourages creativity, imagination, hard work, socialization, reading, problem-solving, and argument. It is a positive activity for a child to be engaged in. Encouraging a child to produce something and enjoy the fruits of their labor is very important. Encouraging a child to be creative is very important. Encouraging a child to read, interact with others, think critically, and resolve disputes is very important. There are many ways to do that, and wargaming is one of them.

I wouldn't say that if your kid is into wargaming you can check off the "learn fine art" box on your "how-to-raise-a-genius-child" list, but it is a positive, constructive activity that encourages the development of important skills. I think that is precisely what everyone has been saying, and I think it was a bit of an overreaction to take that sentiment as an assertion that painting a model is synonymous with fine art.

Comparing wargaming to fine art is like comparing classic literature to Goosebumps. But if someone says that a child reading Goosebumps is a good thing you wouldn't say, "Oh, but that isn't real reading, you should have him/her reading A Tale of Two Cities."

weeble1000 wrote:
When you say that GW is a cheap hobby, what you are really saying is that wargaming is a cheap hobby, and that is entirely correct. But as consumers have a greater degree of choice when it comes to wargaming, the cost of GW's products relative to that market is significant.

It's like what I said in another thread when someone tried comparing what they spend on GW to some other, completely unrealted hobby:

infinite_array wrote:Yeah, I've got to admit, my hobby of enriching uranium in my custom-built backyard underground bunker is waaaaaay more expensive than what I used to spend on GW.

It's a pretty common red herring - we're talking about wargaming. Not boat-sailing, or cars, or sky diving, or paintball, or the creation of enriched uranium.

Also, is it just me, or is there a trend in GW supporters in the apparent argument that since they can afford it, the prices are fine?

Grugknuckle wrote:
This is absolutely true. No other miniature company approaches the quality and customizability of the GW kits.

See http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?products_id=2713

skkipper wrote:for a $1000 you can go pickup almost any 2k army and the rules and keep you busy for years.
GW is way cheaper then my other hobbies, like car restoration and kite boarding.
Hell i spend more on booze in a year then I do in games workshop.
the Ork bommas were cool i picked up three. GW will not go out of business. They will keep chugging along.

haters will hate.
people need to look at other hobbies and see the warhammer is not that expensive.

How the do we keep coming back to this?

YES WE KNOW that wargaming is not an expensive hobby compared to many other ones.

WHAT WE ARE POINTING OUT is that Warhammer charges BMW level prices and delviers a Ford level product. In the case of Finecast, it is Ferrari level prices for Yugo quality product.

Other companies can manage to produce plastic minis every bit as good - IF NOT BETTER - for under HALF what GW charges. THAT IS WHY WE DON'T LIKE GW.

It's not the cost per se, it is that the cost of GW minis is SO FAR OUT OF LINE WITH THE REST OF THE HOBBY.

Why is this such a big deal, the price of everything goes up every year regardless of its quality. If ya don't like then don't buy the product, it's not like anyone NEEDS to play 40k. Maybe its a conspiracy by GW to get as much advertising as they can for free. They raise the price, the internet has a sh!tfit, people read about it and decide to flip the bird to GW by ordering through some other online source for gw products thinking they just pulled a smooth burn on gw and saved a buck. But GW wins no matter what.

Baldsmug wrote:Why is this such a big deal, the price of everything goes up every year regardless of its quality. If ya don't like then don't buy the product, it's not like anyone NEEDS to play 40k. Maybe its a conspiracy by GW to get as much advertising as they can for free. They raise the price, the internet has a sh!tfit, people read about it and decide to flip the bird to GW by ordering through some other online source for gw products thinking they just pulled a smooth burn on gw and saved a buck. But GW wins no matter what.

But the rises are not in line with inflation. Unless everything got around 30% more expensive since last year...

I suppose that is a bit much for just inflation.

Shadowbrand wrote:GW fanboys vs PP fanboys.

/popcorn

Obscure board games, thanks. You can get on my level.

Baldsmug wrote:I suppose that is a bit much for just inflation.

Quite, unless your'e in Zimbabwe.

I've heard from others that GW's price increases are to test the economic irrationality of its base and to try to make it an "elite" game, as others in the thread mentioned. Which, frankly, is rather silly.

"Art" is whatever someone makes and calls "Art." It may be "art," but that doesn't mean it's "good."

But your level sucks.

Shadowbrand wrote:But your level sucks.

You're just saying that 'cause you're jellymad that you're not on it. Like all the plebs who can't afford GW and talk crap on it. Go play reasonably priced war games from companies who actually care about their customer base.

Do you actually talk like that in real life?

And really whats the harm at gocking at two nerds butting heads over what game is better?

I spent $350 on drinks at bars during my 2 month hiatus from tournament playing, gw isnt the only expensive hobby out there.

With that said, I realize that one of the warmahordes summer sale starter boxes is only about $40 more than a 6th edition rulebook, so I might transfer systems, these prices are too much.

Eidolon wrote:I spent $350 on drinks at bars during my 2 month hiatus from tournament playing, gw isnt the only expensive hobby out there.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaugh!

Well, its true. Im not saying the prices are justified, but lets face it. A gallon of beer is going to last you all of about 2 hours, models last longer.

When this http://store.privateerpress.com/khadorsummersalearmybundle.aspx is twice the cost of the 6th edition rulebook alone though, its pretty hard to wonder why people still buy gw. I think they have gotten $200 from me this last year.

Not yet. Close, but not yet.

There is a point where the increase in prices will not be able to compensate for reduced sales. This new price increase will not be it, especially with the advent of 6th edition.

I think the next sales increase will be the one that causes GW to rethink their business decisions. As it is, they are still technically making money, so they have no reason to try something else (though any sane person who knows anything about economics knows otherwise).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

orkybenji wrote:This thread actually turned into a "what is art" discussion. This is embarrassing.

What is art? Not Mass Effect 3!

Eidolon wrote:Well, its true. Im not saying the prices are justified, but lets face it. A gallon of beer is going to last you all of about 2 hours, models last longer.

When this http://store.privateerpress.com/khadorsummersalearmybundle.aspx is twice the cost of the 6th edition rulebook alone though, its pretty hard to wonder why people still buy gw. I think they have gotten $200 from me this last year.

It is a good deal, but some of us (at least me), can't stand warmachine models, or the background. I suppose thats the reason why chumps like me just keep going with GW.

infinite_array wrote:

weeble1000 wrote:
When you say that GW is a cheap hobby, what you are really saying is that wargaming is a cheap hobby, and that is entirely correct. But as consumers have a greater degree of choice when it comes to wargaming, the cost of GW's products relative to that market is significant.

It's like what I said in another thread when someone tried comparing what they spend on GW to some other, completely unrealted hobby:

infinite_array wrote:Yeah, I've got to admit, my hobby of enriching uranium in my custom-built backyard underground bunker is waaaaaay more expensive than what I used to spend on GW.

It's a pretty common red herring - we're talking about wargaming. Not boat-sailing, or cars, or sky diving, or paintball, or the creation of enriched uranium.

Also, is it just me, or is there a trend in GW supporters in the apparent argument that since they can afford it, the prices are fine?

No I see it as well. As on cue, The GW spin doctoring by the White Knights has begun once again.

inquisitorlewis wrote:

Eidolon wrote:Well, its true. Im not saying the prices are justified, but lets face it. A gallon of beer is going to last you all of about 2 hours, models last longer.

When this http://store.privateerpress.com/khadorsummersalearmybundle.aspx is twice the cost of the 6th edition rulebook alone though, its pretty hard to wonder why people still buy gw. I think they have gotten $200 from me this last year.

It is a good deal, but some of us (at least me), can't stand warmachine models, or the background. I suppose thats the reason why chumps like me just keep going with GW.

Oi! I thought I saw you posting in the Infinity section? What happened?!

Prices will never be rolled back. A price 'freeze' maybe. I cannot think of one market that is similar to this where prices were rolled back across the board.

It saddened me that GW is doing what they are because I really enjoy the 40k story and models. But its just too damn expensive.

I will be getting the 6th rulebook probably and that is it. All my foreseeable future purchases will be with 3rd party resin casters.