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 Auswin wrote:
I've been playing 40k since 1996. At one point in time I've used a variety of "main" armies. Started with SW, moved to Eldar, went to BA, DE then back to Eldar.

Their codex is strong, and it's compeditive. There's no denying it. Honestly, I think it's the best written 6th ed codex top to bottom in terms of being fluffy, challenging and fun.

Yes, there are a few things that are exceptionally good. Wave Serpents are very strong, Warp Spiders work wonders for me. Bike spam can be difficult to stop, until your opponent gets anything that ignores cover -- then say goodbye to that Mantle of the Laughing God Farseer.

Personally, I think it's an experience thing. There's nothing in the Eldar book that's broken or close to it. There are things that are good and can be deadly with the right tactics, but that's it. Eldar play like they always have -- a hamfisted mess in the wrong hands, a friggin' scalpel in the right ones.

Key to beating Eldar is choking their target priority and taking out their biggest threats. Personally, I don't see anything that scary about singing spear spam. If you said he was bringing 8 wave serpents, then we can talk.

The main problem I have with the argument is that some armies don't have defense against a lot of things in the Eldar book. Like, sure, Ignores cover would kill that Farseer. Necrons have absolutely no ignores cover, which is why a lot of things are hard to counter.

I find the defeatist mentality of some posts on this thread truly sad.

I just looked at the army that took 5th at BAO. Lol. You'd be surprised. Just goes to show. Generals matter.

 Jancoran wrote:
I find the defeatist mentality of some posts on this thread truly sad.

I just looked at the army that took 5th at BAO. Lol. You'd be surprised. Just goes to show. Generals matter.

You'll notice that the title of the thread is "Eldar are the Anti-Fun" not "Eldar are impossible to beat at BAO and other competitive tournaments."

I can - and have - beat pre-nerf Helldrake, with demi-company style lists. In fact, I won more of those games than lost.

I still hated the thing.

In Warmahordes, I could torch Collasals. They still sucked the fun out of the game for me.

I still think 2 Raptor squads with Invis sorcs would have been less fun. I think it was the list style/play style that made this game unfun, not the codex. For the OP anyways. Others might enjoy it.

 TheSilo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I find the defeatist mentality of some posts on this thread truly sad.

I just looked at the army that took 5th at BAO. Lol. You'd be surprised. Just goes to show. Generals matter.

You'll notice that the title of the thread is "Eldar are the Anti-Fun" not "Eldar are impossible to beat at BAO and other competitive tournaments."

Thank you for that illumination...

I know what the thread is about. My gripe is with the defeatist attitude. They would seem to indicate the indomitable nature of the Eldar. I uh...don't agree, and then used the army that took 5th as some small piece of information for you to consider in that regard. Just LOOK at that army! Nothing "indomitable" about it. It has a plan and when solidly executed does extremely well. It had to go through a gauntlet of those silly Eldar and Tau lists. It did great. So will you if you keep your head on a swivel, stay frosty and dont make mistakes.

I feel that Eldar are strong. I have no problem with saying that. I play them, alongside my many other armies as you know if you've seen the blog. There's no reason to undersell them. ALL armies that swing 25 dice into your face are a little annoying but then again, if you think back, those same armies used to be able to do what they do almost WITHOUT Resistence.

This negative nellie attitude SOME have posted ilustrates to me how much some people hate losing. There's no shame in losing. There isn't. there IS shame, however in claiming the sky is falling when an Eldar sidles up to the table. This isnt a new codex. You should have adjusted BY NOW.

I'll give you an example. I found that when the new Eldar came, I was like "Wowa... Wasn't ready for that". Lost two in a row. Won a nail biter, then lost again. 3 out of 4? Unheard of! So i went to the drawing board and said "okay, new reality received. i need to change."

I switched out my Chaos Lord for a Black legion Lord on bike. I took 3 separate Mutilators in place of some troops. That was about it,. Result? Resounding victories against vicious Mech spam ever since. Those were not big changes. But they ALSO made me stronger against OTHER armies also. So all in all, those three losses, while they stung a bit, TAUGHT me.

If you're above learning, okay fine. But I'm not. So my encouragement to those who feel overwhelmed is to recognize that the cheese has moved. But stop telling me how there's "no hope". because if those little changes to my list could accomodate a new reality, it's probably the same for yours.

What is the BAO army list that you're referring to?

Wow. I have to admit that I don't have the current Eldar codex, so I am woefully out of date with some things. Geez, 25pts for a Shining Spear is 50% of the cost they were when I took up Eldar in 4th edition.

What really sucks is that a lot of people are right, Eldar are just a bit too good overall. I say that as a guy who loves his Eldar, but won't really play them much outside of a super-competitive setting, because I feel bad. Even with my "fun" list of all Aspect Warriors, I can stomp a lot of face. I'll just give it time till some new awesome comes out that scares people, then I can play them again, lol.

 TheSilo wrote:
What is the BAO army list that you're referring to?

The one that took 5th, as aforementioned. It's online somewhere. I looked at it on Facebook, so I dont have a link for you but its easy to find if you google the results Im sure. I think the guys name was Vincent but I apologize, i dont know him. Link anyone?

 Homeskillet wrote:
What really sucks is that a lot of people are right, Eldar are just a bit too good overall. I say that as a guy who loves his Eldar, but won't really play them much outside of a super-competitive setting, because I feel bad. Even with my "fun" list of all Aspect Warriors, I can stomp a lot of face. I'll just give it time till some new awesome comes out that scares people, then I can play them again, lol.

I'll hold you to those words. Come the new Necron Codex, we'll be the new superpower! Muahaha!


Not really, but heres to hoping! *cheers*

 TheSilo wrote:
What is the BAO army list that you're referring to?

5th place list was Space Marines.

List



Space Marines did quite well in the tournament- the first place winner was a SM Primary with a single allied Knight. Notably, only two Eldar lists made it to the top ten, and five Space Marine lists did.

Here's a more in-depth look at the top ten and their lists.

What's so uncompetitive about that list?

 TheSilo wrote:
What's so uncompetitive about that list?

It doesn't spam bikes, or grav weapons?

Just what strikes me, might not be up to date on the current super-meta.

 Jancoran wrote:

 TheSilo wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:
I find the defeatist mentality of some posts on this thread truly sad.

I just looked at the army that took 5th at BAO. Lol. You'd be surprised. Just goes to show. Generals matter.

You'll notice that the title of the thread is "Eldar are the Anti-Fun" not "Eldar are impossible to beat at BAO and other competitive tournaments."

Thank you for that illumination...

I know what the thread is about. My gripe is with the defeatist attitude. They would seem to indicate the indomitable nature of the Eldar. I uh...don't agree, and then used the army that took 5th as some small piece of information for you to consider in that regard. Just LOOK at that army! Nothing "indomitable" about it. It has a plan and when solidly executed does extremely well. It had to go through a gauntlet of those silly Eldar and Tau lists. It did great. So will you if you keep your head on a swivel, stay frosty and dont make mistakes.

I feel that Eldar are strong. I have no problem with saying that. I play them, alongside my many other armies as you know if you've seen the blog. There's no reason to undersell them. ALL armies that swing 25 dice into your face are a little annoying but then again, if you think back, those same armies used to be able to do what they do almost WITHOUT Resistence.

This negative nellie attitude SOME have posted ilustrates to me how much some people hate losing. There's no shame in losing. There isn't. there IS shame, however in claiming the sky is falling when an Eldar sidles up to the table. This isnt a new codex. You should have adjusted BY NOW.

I'll give you an example. I found that when the new Eldar came, I was like "Wowa... Wasn't ready for that". Lost two in a row. Won a nail biter, then lost again. 3 out of 4? Unheard of! So i went to the drawing board and said "okay, new reality received. i need to change."

I switched out my Chaos Lord for a Black legion Lord on bike. I took 3 separate Mutilators in place of some troops. That was about it,. Result? Resounding victories against vicious Mech spam ever since. Those were not big changes. But they ALSO made me stronger against OTHER armies also. So all in all, those three losses, while they stung a bit, TAUGHT me.

If you're above learning, okay fine. But I'm not. So my encouragement to those who feel overwhelmed is to recognize that the cheese has moved. But stop telling me how there's "no hope". because if those little changes to my list could accomodate a new reality, it's probably the same for yours.

Maybe some people have a different idea of fun than you? Maybe some people's idea of fun is an even match where both players have an equal chance of winning and winner is determined by player skill and not list building?

or maybe they are sore losers unwilling to change and maybe I should have just RAGE QUIT after getting spanked 3 out of 4 right? I mean since you know, it should be about my skill and as the more skilled General (and I was in this case) I should be OUTRAGED that he DARED use his new codex on me! Yup I must not want fun games as evidenced by the fact that i adjusted!

What we DO KNOW is that skill expresses itself very well when it has a tool bag. It has no capacity for expression without one.

List changes don't need to be wholsale, as was the case for me. Mine were minor but they allowed my list to do more things. I didn't need to reach for a net list. I learned from my mistakes and got better at Warhammer in general by making my list less specialized and more free form. I dislike this toggle switch that you've offered up because it isnt "either you want a fair fight but NO list changes or you DONT want a fair fight WITH list changes". Makes no sense to even say that. Situation is king.

IF you're saying you couldn't make some slight changes to increase your OPTIONS, okay. I guess. But you need a new hobby in that event.

If you're NOT saying that, then why point out that "some peoples idea of fun involves a fair fight where skill matters" when that's EXACTLY what you'll get if you adjust? My skill level is high and my lists are (supposedly) not so great. On the other hand, the scoreboard would seem to indicate that I'm better at change.

ADJUST and the score board will favor you too.

Because it's easier to cry online about how OP a codex is than it is to think of a solution, buy the models, paint them and implement that solution.

I used to think Eldar were unbearably OP. The BAO results kinda changed my mind. They definitely have some OP options, but forVPs, remember that a Rhino or pod costs 1/4 to 1/3 the points, has sufficient movement, and aren't boned if they move into charge range/ expose rear armor to Avengers the way the Serpent is if it does to Marines. With tactical objectives, Serpents can't just gun line.

All that aside, the OP here is talking about types of builds he doesn't enjoy playing against. A spam list like the one here is even less fun for him than a pure ranger list would be for a competitive Ork player. There are many different ways to play this hobby.

And whats FUN is one issue. Whats OP? I hate that term, honestly. i do.

I dont have FUN playing against Wave spam as MUCH as I do other forces but that has mnore to do with how wierd I find it that most Wave spammers do a gunline. Fastest army i nthe codex and you gunline. It feels wrong. Cant shake that feeling during the game. But thats an aesthetic consideration or fluff one, not really directly related to the list itself per se.

anyways, bottom line is, less crying and more solutions.

I mean, Wave Serpants aren't as bad anymore guys. Just shoot at them. Oh, they jinked? Much less fire power.

There is a lot of crying. Although as an Eldar player, it is understandable, but do something about it. Crying doesn't solve a problem.

You need to know the Eldar army and your own to be able to beat it. knowing what does what, 'knowledge is power'.

Saying that, the list is crap, what has mortars and grenade launchers ever killed?

Saying that, some general advice;

Eldar have extremely good fundamentals and extremely good gimmicks. as others have said, when in the right hands, extremely powerful.

remember, most of our stuff will hit. Everything is Bs4, so don't take chances and leave things exposed, or chances are that units dead. Chances are, my bright lance will hit you tank, and I as a good player, I never have just one, so that tank of yours is gonna get hit by multiple bright lances.

We have good support, so guess what, when I shoot you and I really want something of yours dead, I'm gonna make my unit hit even more than it already does. We are fast too, so if your unit is tough, I can easily bring multiple.

However I can only kill one unit with one of mine, so back your units up, keep multiples around. My aim is to isolate your units and pick them off. I don't ever want to be shot back. Someone said early on in this thread that eldar players hate choices, we do. 1 unit will melt, 2 units will melt, 3 not so much and when you shoot back, it will hurt my precious units.

Eldar have short range, we do need to expose ourselves when we shoot, we need to be up close. but remember(our fundamentals) we will be hiding again when your unit is dead. You need to figure out how to catch us.

Eldar are also control freaks, we are faster than you, we decide where the battle takes place. You will be reacting to us, however, charge us too hard and we can just run away. If you gunline, you can guarantee half your units are never gonna do anything. We will pick off whatever of your units that get exposed. but you need to know this, figure out what I'll be hiding behind after your unit is dead and have something ready to kill mine, Eldar will lose an attrition war.

I'd write more, but thats hopefully enough, and hopefully useful.

I've been back in the hobby for about four months, and have played five games against Eldar. Every one has ended with me tabled and it's the only army that has tabled me.

It can be a pain to play against them. But the game is still rock-scissor-paper.
Eldar has problems against fast moving armies able to threaten the Serpents asap.

Once had an etherial hold his own barehanded against a farseer on death mission for the last round of the game. 500 points, and with the farseer dieing at mission end it was a table.
Also 1/54 las shots wound? That means you just need a couple full conscript squads on FRFSRF. That throws about 200 shots per unit right? If they are in rapid dire range.

LordDavenport wrote:
Also 1/54 las shots wound? That means you just need a couple full conscript squads on FRFSRF. That throws about 200 shots per unit right? If they are in rapid dire range.

A full squad of conscripts is 50 models. So 150 shots at close range FRFSRF. But, err, good luck getting 50 Conscripts within 12", lol, if you only space them about 0.5" apart (so blast template fodder) they'll take up a block of space about 10" x 10". Then they're only Bs2, so only a third are going to hit rather than half, so it becomes 1 in 81 shots instead of 1 in 54.

For their price, it's tempting to take Conscripts expecting them to shoot stuff. More practically, I think 10 Vets with special weapons has more potential to deal damage on the battlefield. Conscripts are better used to occupy table space and be a nuisance. Perfect bubble wrap unit.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

LordDavenport wrote:
Also 1/54 las shots wound? That means you just need a couple full conscript squads on FRFSRF. That throws about 200 shots per unit right? If they are in rapid dire range.

A full squad of conscripts is 50 models. So 150 shots at close range FRFSRF. But, err, good luck getting 50 Conscripts within 12", lol, if you only space them about 0.5" apart (so blast template fodder) they'll take up a block of space about 10" x 10". Then they're only Bs2, so only a third are going to hit rather than half, so it becomes 1 in 81 shots instead of 1 in 54.

For their price, it's tempting to take Conscripts expecting them to shoot stuff. More practically, I think 10 Vets with special weapons has more potential to deal damage on the battlefield. Conscripts are better used to occupy table space and be a nuisance. Perfect bubble wrap unit.

I'm inclined to start including a banewolf, scions, wyrdvanes, or rough riders as backfield protection. 12" move and flame or 12" move and assault with +2S Ap3 power weapons seems like a good way to dissuade any deep strikers or outflanking units. Volley guns or wyrdvanes with smite could clean up anti-tank threats, though they'd be less effective against shining spears.

Goatseer wrote:
There is a lot of crying. Although as an Eldar player, it is understandable, but do something about it. Crying doesn't solve a problem.

You need to know the Eldar army and your own to be able to beat it. knowing what does what, 'knowledge is power'.

Saying that, the list is crap, what has mortars and grenade launchers ever killed?

Saying that, some general advice;

Eldar have extremely good fundamentals and extremely good gimmicks. as others have said, when in the right hands, extremely powerful.

remember, most of our stuff will hit. Everything is Bs4, so don't take chances and leave things exposed, or chances are that units dead. Chances are, my bright lance will hit you tank, and I as a good player, I never have just one, so that tank of yours is gonna get hit by multiple bright lances.

We have good support, so guess what, when I shoot you and I really want something of yours dead, I'm gonna make my unit hit even more than it already does. We are fast too, so if your unit is tough, I can easily bring multiple.

However I can only kill one unit with one of mine, so back your units up, keep multiples around. My aim is to isolate your units and pick them off. I don't ever want to be shot back. Someone said early on in this thread that eldar players hate choices, we do. 1 unit will melt, 2 units will melt, 3 not so much and when you shoot back, it will hurt my precious units.

Eldar have short range, we do need to expose ourselves when we shoot, we need to be up close. but remember(our fundamentals) we will be hiding again when your unit is dead. You need to figure out how to catch us.

Eldar are also control freaks, we are faster than you, we decide where the battle takes place. You will be reacting to us, however, charge us too hard and we can just run away. If you gunline, you can guarantee half your units are never gonna do anything. We will pick off whatever of your units that get exposed. but you need to know this, figure out what I'll be hiding behind after your unit is dead and have something ready to kill mine, Eldar will lose an attrition war.

I'd write more, but thats hopefully enough, and hopefully useful.

Sadly your post amounts to little more than:

We have all these great units/ special rules / abilities /advantages........

but you don't - and that's tough (ie you should play Eldar) better figure out a way to beat us - and if you complain well that just crying - cos you know we all like awesome and broken - and that all good.

If certain units were toned down to normal levels - then the game would be better and I would feel comfortable fielding my own cheese serpents

Eldar will end up like every other army. It has its time in the sun.. It'll eventually die and some other army will take its place. That's when the true Eldar players will surface, as well as the powerhouse only own the best army at the time players will as well.

Lshowell wrote:
Eldar will end up like every other army. It has its time in the sun.. It'll eventually die and some other army will take its place. That's when the true Eldar players will surface, as well as the powerhouse only own the best army at the time players will as well.

2nd edition Exarch herohammer, 3rd edition craftworlds, 4th edition falconspam, 6th/7th edition wave serpent spam...

Yeah they are due one bad edition based on their track record, should be about 7th or 8th

An interesting trend I've noticed is that compared to previous "imba" armies, Eldar has had a much more pronounced effect on their playerbase than the others.

Here's what I mean; of the people who played Eldar prior to their update locally, all have switched to secondary armies most of the time, one of them even bought a new army because "It's just not fun wrecking people without trying." Long-time Eldar players have basically given up playing their army, as they find it an unenjoyable experience. No one has taken up playing eldar either.

Now, going through recent history;

Tau - Two players started Tau, myself included, I sold the Riptide as I felt it was too powerful and fluff-unfriendly, the other player kept his as a tournament army, single pre-existing Tau player rolls so terribly no one considers him a threat, ever.
Necrons - One player sold his 'cron army on the grounds it was too powerful, two people bought 'cron armies
Grey Knights - One player sold his army well after their heydey was over in an attempt to get a new player into the game, no one started GK during the Age of Draigo.

I still saw all the "flavour of the month" armies on the table consistently throughout their tenure, and while people might have groaned when playing them, they never refused a game, and the other side rarely went undefeated (save for the tourney tau player bringing ultra-competitive lists to friendly games, we had to disabuse him of that notion). Eldar, however, have basically become extinct save for two guys just getting back into the game after being out since 4th, with people who loved their army shelving it as being that powerful breaks the game.

Now, I'm a Guard primary player, Eldar don't frighten me overly much when I'm fielding a wall of Guardsmen and a few russes, but if I put my Marines or Tau on the table, I know I'm probably going to get tabled, it's merely a matter of how many of them I can bring with me. They're a ridiculously cost-efficient, highly mobile, flexible army which can easily dominate every phase of the game. Their only real weakness is lots of bodies and high power long range firepower, which only Guard can really do. Daemons also give them some trouble from what I've seen, as their own cheesy ridiculousness can fight eldar at an even or superior level in most ways, save that they're slightly slower and have basically no shooting phase.

Of course, with GW's approach to rules, they won't be changed for years, which has a great deal to do with my disillusionment with the game. A videogame company which produces an imbalanced RTS by rushing it out without proper testing will, unless they're EA, patch it extensively to make it work better. I've played plenty of games with rough starts which become better, and even fun, in about 1/24 of the time it takes GW to do a rules update, with no guarentees of improvement.

Now, of course, there are big logistical differences, but the only thing preventing GW from actually making a better ruleset is their own attitude. They don't listen to feedback, have no channels of communication, and while they have a mechanism for updates, FAQs and Erratas, they limit themselves enormously in content for fear of reducing the value of their massively overpriced codexes. People wouldn't be quitting Eldar, or in my case, consider quitting the whole game, if every mistake, OP unit or power didn't come with the unspoken knowledge that it will be exactly, or more or less as it is for four years or more. If the codexes weren't so consistently screwed up, maybe I wouldn't mind the cycle so much (I certainly won't for Marines, it's one of their only balanced, well-thought out, flexibile books out there, despite my continued annoyance over how to sell models, Marines must be expensive cannon fodder, not supersoldiers, but I digress), but errors in judgement and testing like Eldar, Daemons and Tau, and on the other end of the spectrum, Tyranids and Chaos really make me wonder, "What's the point?" Pay for a premium product, and get support which is basically non-existent.

I really do wish that GW approached the rules aspect of their game like most other companies; inexpensive softcover codexes with regular updates handled by a dedicated team of unbiased rules designers (lord knows the GW team at present has favourites, which shows in the rules) built, in part, from feedback through open channels, like, say, a forum like every other game out there. There are other things they could do to avoid the present state of affairs, like properly testing things beforehand, replacing or expanding their writing team, or hell, giving Forgeworld the reins over rules; they actually release "beta" rules, and change them based on feedback and occassionally produce an overpowered unit, but never whole overpowered armies or lists without intentionally designing weaknesses into them.

Meanwhile, I derive a great deal more gaming pleasure from Company of Heroes or Wargame Red Dragon; they've got balance issues, factions which over or underperform, but every week there're small steps towards ironing out issues, and the game markedly improves over time, and all this requires dedicated coders, compatibility testing, certification, bugfixing and servers for distribution, rather than a simple PDF an a willingness to fix a problem.

Paper, rock, scissors, Eldar.

Every time i face eldar, which is about 30-40% of my games actually, i feel like im just doing random crap and hoping it works against what he has because that race makes no sense to me. They have a base statline that rivals Guardsmen in crappyness on troops, yet they have elites that are tough as nails, tons of Fearless on models that make no sense to have it since other "similar" models in other races dont have it and should, the most random init and/or WS between their units, and of course the only non-apoc ranged instant death weapon that isnt pistol-ranged
Pretty much every unit they have except the Wraith stuff i end up thinking "why the hell does that unit have that rule?" - i never think that about ANY race's units. Wraiths are the only unit that makes sense with their statline/job/story compared to other armies. And even then, Wraithknights shouldnt be stock S10 without that sword imo but thats not TOO big a deal.

I have to agree that Eldar are the anti-fun race. I never have a fun game against Eldar even if my opponent is a bit of a moron and blunders his rules giving me an advantage. That being said, i dont get steamrolled by them, but i shouldnt be getting a headache every time i face them whether i win or lose.