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 adamsouza wrote:

Can someone explain that, or at least point me to a thread that does ?

Essentially the brb rule for challenges, and the Necron FAQ rule for MSS, both have the exact same wording for when they occur. Something like (from memory, can't look it up at the moment) 'at the start of the fight sub-phase, before any blows are struck'.

According to another rule in the brb, if two things happen at the same time, the player whose turn it is gets to decide which is resolved first.

So if you are charging, you either put a grunt or no one in b2b with the MSS carrier. Then you say to resolve MSS now. You take MSS test with the grunt or it is wasted if nothing is in b2b. Then you allow challenges, safe in the knowledge MSS has been used up for this round.

 adamsouza wrote:
Can someone explain that, or at least point me to a thread that does?

 evil_kiwi_60 wrote:
The problem is that no matter what, I have to challenge or accept a challenge. The only way out of it I see is force feeding my squad leaders who are highly unlikely to last longer than one round. Then in the next round of melee combat my opponent gets to challenge first and my lord goes down because he apparently has a death wish.

For both an example with Assault Space Marines with a Chapter Master.
1) You charge with the unit.
2) You put an Assault Marine in base contact.
3) MSS activates and takes over the Assault Marine.
4) You challenge the Overlord with your Chapter Master or Sergeant.
5) You win combat.

6) On the small chance you don't wipe the Necrons, the Sergeant will probably be dead and now the Overlord can use MSS against the Chapter Master.

Conclusion: The 15-point upgrade hardly did anything to help in CC.

Tekron wrote:
MSS avoiding shenanigans like that are a bit WAAC themselves in my opinion. It requires telling your opponent that they have to use their wargear before they want to. Really it's exploiting the fact that MSS rules were written before challenge rules were released. Technically legal but leaves a bad taste, especially when Necron CC HQs are so weak without it.

Using the rules to correctly play a 15-point piece of wargear that is heavily underpowered if you are being charged is not something I would call WAAC.

I want people to understand how underpowered our CC-HQ's are, it means there will be less QQ and spam when they eventually get buffed.
Especially now that many people have this misconception that we are somehow overpowered in CC.

Thank you for explaining the MSS situation.

That actually makes me feel better about the 15 point cost. It's an offensive tool, not a defensive crutch.

 krodarklorr wrote:
we could either become the next Eldar, or they'll nerf everything good we had and we'll become the next Tyranids.

As a Tyranid player, I approve of the latter. Bring the nerf hammer down on Tesla, Catacomb Command Barges, Annihilation Barges and Mindshackle Scarabs. While at it, make all Necron vehicles AV10 rear so they just can't blatantly ignore all S4 units in combat. There is nothing more frustrating than the AV13 Necron wall.

 N.I.B. wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
we could either become the next Eldar, or they'll nerf everything good we had and we'll become the next Tyranids.

As a Tyranid player, I approve of the latter. Bring the nerf hammer down on Tesla, Catacomb Command Barges, Annihilation Barges and Mindshackle Scarabs. While at it, make all Necron vehicles AV10 rear so they just can't blatantly ignore all S4 units in combat. There is nothing more frustrating than the AV13 Necron wall.

And at that point Necrons become an army no one sees worth playing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Those vehicles may look cheap, but as an army Necrons do not benefit from psychic force multipliers or AM orders and so on, relying almost entirely on a core of solid, good value for points units.

A 50% nerf to two of the best Necron units like you are proposing would simply drop them out of contention for being a strong army. It would also reduce the number of models they can field in a battle, hurting GW sales figures.

Exactly. AM have good orders, and access to Psychic powers. Yeah, the A-barge is rather cheap for what it is, but at the same time, it's 90 pts. for ONE gun. (Yeah, it has a second one, but you can never fire it effectively anyway) It's a mid-range, no AP gun that just gets a lot of shots. It's good. But it's not OP in my opinion. (Though my Dark Eldar friend would disagree. He hates them.) And the Night Scythe is literally spending 100 points for 1 gun as well, but with the added transport capacity, which is really good. But here's the thing. I hate being a cheese player, and therefor don't like to spam powerful or cheap things. But when my full squads of Immortals only have ONE option for a transport, what can you really do?

 adamsouza wrote:
Thank you for explaining the MSS situation.

Here is a full discussion that we had on it not too long ago, for you and everyone else frustrated with MSS.
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/603819.page

Pretty much covers what's already been said without getting into the details of Necron players causing the problem in the first place (Which is the main source of all the MSS=OP posts anyways). There are 3 things that I feel need to be added that will help you get around MSS.

1) Challenges can only be issued if the models issuing/accepting are engaged. Not easy with most armies, but larger units like Orks, and blocks of Chaos Marines, can actually manage to keep their characters un-engaged until their pile-in step. Many places have house ruled this one out, and there is quite a bit of debate on it that I won't get into here. If you have a regular gaming group, be sure to discuss it with them just in case there is someone who doesn't agree.

2) If you don't manage to break the unit on the turn you charge, as the controlling player you get to pile-in first. Again, not always possible, but you want to get as many of your models in base contact with the Overlord as possible. Models in a challenge are no longer considered to be ONLY in base contact with each other. This is a carry over from the last edition and the MSS doesn't automatically work on the model in the challenge. So the Necron Player still has to randomize which models are hit, this will increase the chance that your Champion will do what he is supposed to do.

3) For the MC/Solo Characters. MSS still works when a challenge is declined if the Overlord is in base contact. So if you TRY to charge the Overlord with your Wraithknight/Hive Tyrant, with the intent of killing him first in a challenge, your opponent can always decline the challenge and still have MSS go off. Yeah, his Warscythe isn't striking, but he doesn't have to take all the hits unless/until he is the only one in base, and then he can use 'Look Out Sir'.

 Orock wrote:
Honestly? With ward gone, I can see necron and dark elder getting the tyranid/ork treatment and getting "better internal balance" while taking away any competitive edge they had. To be fair they are more shooty oriented, so probably wont be as hamstrung, but the writing is on the wall at GW. Make the goodguys powerful and heroic, and everyone else the NPC factions.

Not to say Tyranids are bad or anything, but they have terrible internal balance. It basically comes down to a flow chart of sorts..."Are you taking a Hive Tyrant? If no, you're stupid, take a Hive Tyrant. If yes, does he have wings? If yes, you're playing right. If no, give him wings. Does he have 2 TL Devourers? If yes, you're smart. If no, don't field him."

If any codex has options like that, there's bad internal balance. Orks on the other hand, are actually well balanced internally. They might not be super top-tier competitive, but good and playable IMO.

As far as I'm concerned, the internal balance aspect, there's nowhere to go but up with Necrons. They are actually doing pretty bad with internal balance. 10 points for a Voidblade, or 10 points for a Warscythe. Which one would you pick? Exactly. 40 pts. per model for 1 attack and no invuln, must take dangerous terrain tests, and attacks last in combat VS. doesn't care about terrain, makes YOU strike last, has an amazing invuln, and 3 attacks base. Which would you pick? Exactly. 15 pt upgrade on a more survivable unit for a TL 36-inch Lascannon that TLs everything else? Or a 20 pt upgrade on a one wound, 3+ armor model, and it's not TLed. Simple things like that they need to fix.

Akar wrote:1) Challenges can only be issued if the models issuing/accepting are engaged.

True in 6th. No longer a requirement in 7th. Just a note.

My hope for Necrons in 7th is a Doom Scythe worth taking. Also, C'tan that aren't boring and overpriced (with upgrades that are even more boring and overpriced) would be nice. Something like the Deceiver from the 3rd Ed. book perhaps.

I'd also put a word in for Destroyers, Flayed Ones, Lychguard, Praetorians, the Monolith, and all of the other neglected, subpar units in the book, but it wouldn't be a 40k codex without an inexplicable number of subpar units.

 whigwam wrote:

Akar wrote:1) Challenges can only be issued if the models issuing/accepting are engaged.

True in 6th. No longer a requirement in 7th.

Pg 101, last line in both the 3rd Paragraph under 'Issuing a challenge', and 'Accepting a Challenge'. In Parenthesis 'Including those that are not engaged with an enemy model'.

It just got a little cleaner from 6th, but it hasn't changed, unless I've missed something? It's possible I am wrong as it's never really come up in my games. Unengaged characters cannot issue or accept challenges. They might later become engaged on the pile-in since we check for who is engaged (vs. locked) after each Initiative Step Pile-in during the Fight Sub Phase.

Ah, yeah, missed that bit! You are correct. This came up in a local tournament the other day. Went over those passages with the TO but I guess we both overlooked it. I think we just saw the bolded "nominate a character in one of your units locked in the combat" and then our eyes got blurry.

 whigwam wrote:
Ah, yeah, missed that bit!

All good, just making sure I didn't miss something is all. I know there are some people who are passionate about parts of it, but that's off topic.

Back on Topic. Until we get our new Dex, I think Doomscythes definitely moved up in in value because they don't target. Not great, but it gets around Invisibility unless they FAQ'd it out.

Pretty much everything about the overpriced units for sure. Lychguard, Praetorians, and Stalkers need a price reduction or increase in stats somewhere along the line.

I absolutely disagree with Flayed Ones though. They're pretty good as they are, but you have to be one of those Necron players who doesn't believe all the crap about them sucking in combat. Yeah, we're I2, but so what? We're still WS/S/T 4, and that's something that catches opponents off guard. I'm not suggesting by any means that you put Necrons into combat, no we're a shooting army, but I've got no problem closing the gap. A majority of the lists I've seen run these small 5-10 man units, and so it's not surprising that they don't do well in combat. Not many units in this game do.

I'd like to see Flayed Ones moved to Troops though, I'd also like to see the Immorals go back to being Immortals, but I don't see that happening.

http://natfka.blogspot.nl/2014/08/necron-codex-mia-interesting-things.html?m=1

Interesting!

Worry and excitement!

Kangodo wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.nl/2014/08/necron-codex-mia-interesting-things.html?m=1

Interesting!

Not really. It just proves that they didn't look hard enough...

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000?Nao=48&Nu=product.repositoryId&N=102352+4294967200&qty=12&sorting=phl&view=table Top right corner

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Codex-Necrons-EN

... and they're a few steps behind Dakka Dakka.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609280.page

Spoiling to avoid offending anyone's eyes with a wall of text.

I completely forgot about Phaeron. Yeah, it needs to do something more than Relentless. I mean, I think Necrons should all become stubborn (A very nice rule that fits them, but isn't widely used), and if they don't get that, at least make Phaeron give the unit Stubborn. That wouldn't be too much to ask for.

I dont think We'll be back should come back, fading out when half the army is gone would suck now a days. but from some things people here would be good but i doubt much will change unfortunately.

 ChaosxVoid wrote:
I dont think We'll be back should come back, fading out when half the army is gone would suck now a days. but from some things people here would be good but i doubt much will change unfortunately.

Phase Out was a different rule to WBB.

 krodarklorr wrote:
I completely forgot about Phaeron. Yeah, it needs to do something more than Relentless. I mean, I think Necrons should all become stubborn (A very nice rule that fits them, but isn't widely used), and if they don't get that, at least make Phaeron give the unit Stubborn. That wouldn't be too much to ask for.

I think Necrons should be immune to Fear and Poison.

With regard to Phaeron, yeah it needs to do something else (or something different). Alternatively, perhaps Necrons could have some Heavy Guns in their infantry - so that Relentless might actually do something worthwhile.

 vipoid wrote:

I think Necrons should be immune to Fear and Poison.

With regard to Phaeron, yeah it needs to do something else (or something different). Alternatively, perhaps Necrons could have some Heavy Guns in their infantry - so that Relentless might actually do something worthwhile.

The first, I agree, but that would never happen. I just think Stubborn makes sense, sense we suck in CC, but we're freaking robot zombie-like things. Why would we run away and get swept that easily? It makes sense to give them stubborn. And I don't like the idea of Heavy Weapons in regular squads. It doesn't really make sense with fluff, since Warriors are literally all the same. Plus, I don't wanna feel like we're becoming Space Marines. "Yeah, this guy right here is my heavy weapons guy."

 krodarklorr wrote:

The first, I agree, but that would never happen. I just think Stubborn makes sense, sense we suck in CC, but we're freaking robot zombie-like things. Why would we run away and get swept that easily? It makes sense to give them stubborn.

Do you mean we should be Stubborn by default, or that Phaeron should provide stubborn?

 krodarklorr wrote:
And I don't like the idea of Heavy Weapons in regular squads. It doesn't really make sense with fluff, since Warriors are literally all the same. Plus, I don't wanna feel like we're becoming Space Marines. "Yeah, this guy right here is my heavy weapons guy."

Not even Heavy Weapon crypteks?

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

The first, I agree, but that would never happen. I just think Stubborn makes sense, sense we suck in CC, but we're freaking robot zombie-like things. Why would we run away and get swept that easily? It makes sense to give them stubborn.

Do you mean we should be Stubborn by default, or that Phaeron should provide stubborn?

 krodarklorr wrote:
And I don't like the idea of Heavy Weapons in regular squads. It doesn't really make sense with fluff, since Warriors are literally all the same. Plus, I don't wanna feel like we're becoming Space Marines. "Yeah, this guy right here is my heavy weapons guy."

Not even Heavy Weapon crypteks?

Well, preferably Stubborn by default. Mainly because I feel it makes sense, and it's an underused USR anyway. And Heavy Weapon Crypteks, I don't really see that working, or making sense. Honestly, even the "Heavy" weapons of Necrons aren't heavy. Shoot, Heavy Guass Cannons are Assault weapons...

 krodarklorr wrote:

Well, preferably Stubborn by default. Mainly because I feel it makes sense, and it's an underused USR anyway.

It would make sense, but I suspect it would often be a disadvantage. Ranged armies rarely want to stay in combat.

 krodarklorr wrote:
And Heavy Weapon Crypteks, I don't really see that working, or making sense. Honestly, even the "Heavy" weapons of Necrons aren't heavy. Shoot, Heavy Guass Cannons are Assault weapons...

Fair enough.

But, I thought Heavy Gauss Cannons were Heavy? Unless I'm thinking of the previous book.

 vipoid wrote:

It would make sense, but I suspect it would often be a disadvantage. Ranged armies rarely want to stay in combat.

Fair enough.

But, I thought Heavy Gauss Cannons were Heavy? Unless I'm thinking of the previous book.

Well, a ranged army also doesn't like being swept because they're pathetic in combat.

And yeah, in every instance the Heavy Gauss Cannon is Assault. There are few Heavy weapons that are actually on non-vehicle platforms. Like the Transdimensional beamer. Heavy Weapon, and can be taken by Wraiths. I expect them to make it not heavy anymore...

And at that point Necrons become an army no one sees worth playing.

Man, why is everyone hating on Orks? I can understand Tyranids, but Orks? They got a much stronger codex.

Remember when you said these words? Why would anyone hate orks? Well if necrons got internal balance in the form of av 10 vehicles, sensible nerfs to almost every unit, and all their units became viable due to every one of them being about as bland, why would necrons become and army no one sees worth playing? Surely you would continue to play necrons without mind shackle scarabs, av 13 shields on your vehicles, tesla shenanigans, or anything remotely good wouldn't you? I mean that would just be hypocritical to do otherwise.

10 points for a Voidblade, or 10 points for a Warscythe. Which one would you pick? Exactly

Yes, exactly. So in the next edition, I fully expect 10 points for voidblade, and 50 for warscythe. internal balance after all.

 Orock wrote:
And at that point Necrons become an army no one sees worth playing.

Man, why is everyone hating on Orks? I can understand Tyranids, but Orks? They got a much stronger codex.

Remember when you said these words? Why would anyone hate orks? Well if necrons got internal balance in the form of av 10 vehicles, sensible nerfs to almost every unit, and all their units became viable due to every one of them being about as bland, why would necrons become and army no one sees worth playing? Surely you would continue to play necrons without mind shackle scarabs, av 13 shields on your vehicles, tesla shenanigans, or anything remotely good wouldn't you? I mean that would just be hypocritical to do otherwise.

I'm honestly confused as to who this is aimed at, if you see what I mean.

 Orock wrote:
Yes, exactly. So in the next edition, I fully expect 10 points for voidblade, and 50 for warscythe. internal balance after all.

Or, you know, complete lack thereof. But it would certainly fit GW's habit of tackling minor problems with a sledgehammer.

Or maybe, 10 points for a voidblade, or 20-25 for a warscythe? Any more than that, and people won't use it. The reason it's probably so cheap now is because it's still on a WS4 I2 A3 model.

I don't understand where all of your points are coming from. You're talking about removing most of the necron codex, whereas Orks didn't lose much, and got a lot more. If Necrons get the Ork treatment, I'll be content. Maybe Tesla Immortals will be nerfed, and so will Wraiths. But Praetorians and Lychguard might get better, and therefor, I get to use them, or at least they would have an equal shot at the role.

Also, how is AV13 that big of a deal? You know that Ghost Arks don't really DO much, right? And most codexes have plenty to make short work of them anyway.

I feel like you're coming off that you got gipped with the Ork Codex, but I don't see why. If anything, you guys are stronger than ever. Yeah, you might have lost a little fluff and some fun stuff here and there. So? It was bound to happen, to keep everything in line with the USRs in the BRB.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Or maybe, 10 points for a voidblade, or 20-25 for a warscythe? Any more than that, and people won't use it. The reason it's probably so cheap now is because it's still on a WS4 I2 A3 model.

Yeah, even then, 20-25pts is a hell of a lot for a model with those combat stats. But, if Necron Overlords were given more bite in combat (e.g. WS5), I'd be less adverse to paying more for warscythes.

It's the same reason I think Power Fists should have stayed at 15pts on IG - they're less survivable than SMs, and get less use out of PFs (less WS, less strength), so it seems reasonable that they shouldn't pay as much.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Also, how is AV13 that big of a deal? You know that Ghost Arks don't really DO much, right? And most codexes have plenty to make short work of them anyway.

I'm not so sure.

Maybe top-tier lists, but in our group I've seen a *lot* of lists that struggled to down an Annihilation Barge or Ghost Ark. Also, both are pretty damn cheap for what they bring. e.g. the Ghost Ark puts out the same firepower as a 10-man warrior squad, but costs less and is immune to anything below S7. And, of course, you can have another 10 man warrior squad inside it.

Anyway, I don't think a single Ghost Ark or Annihilation Barge is a problem (unless you're playing very low points) - it's when you can have most of your army composed of them. So, suddenly your opponent is faced with a wall of AV13 and (as above) all his weapons that aren't S7 or higher are useless.

And, both the Barge and Ghost Ark are such good value that those armies are very easy to build and also very strong.

 vipoid wrote:


Yeah, even then, 20-25pts is a hell of a lot for a model with those combat stats. But, if Necron Overlords were given more bite in combat (e.g. WS5), I'd be less adverse to paying more for warscythes.

It's the same reason I think Power Fists should have stayed at 15pts on IG - they're less survivable than SMs, and get less use out of PFs (less WS, less strength), so it seems reasonable that they shouldn't pay as much.

I'm not so sure.

Maybe top-tier lists, but in our group I've seen a *lot* of lists that struggled to down an Annihilation Barge or Ghost Ark. Also, both are pretty damn cheap for what they bring. e.g. the Ghost Ark puts out the same firepower as a 10-man warrior squad, but costs less and is immune to anything below S7. And, of course, you can have another 10 man warrior squad inside it.

Anyway, I don't think a single Ghost Ark or Annihilation Barge is a problem (unless you're playing very low points) - it's when you can have most of your army composed of them. So, suddenly your opponent is faced with a wall of AV13 and (as above) all his weapons that aren't S7 or higher are useless.

And, both the Barge and Ghost Ark are such good value that those armies are very easy to build and also very strong.

Yeah, I hope the Overlord becomes WS5, that would be nice. But honestly, I love AV13 wall, not because it's really hard to deal with (I've actually lost quite a few vehicles most of them time. People I know just tend to be able to deal with them I guess), but because I love the look of Vehicles advancing, led by an Overlord on a Barge. But unless Necron vehicles get cheaper, I don't see them taking away the AV13. Because they still only have Gauss Flayers (Which snap fire if you jink now), and they're not fast, like a lot of other skimmers. So, yeah they're open topped so they have guys inside firing, but then you also have the fact that they're easier to explode as well. So, take the good with the bad I suppose.

 krodarklorr wrote:
. But honestly, I love AV13 wall, not because it's really hard to deal with (I've actually lost quite a few vehicles most of them time. People I know just tend to be able to deal with them I guess), but because I love the look of Vehicles advancing, led by an Overlord on a Barge.

I'm actually the opposite - I just don't see the attraction of vehicle lists in general - especially in terms of aesthetic.

However, I'm almost certainly in the minority on that one.

 krodarklorr wrote:
But unless Necron vehicles get cheaper, I don't see them taking away the AV13.

They'll likely keep AV13, but they may well start paying a lot more for it.

If GW was sensible, they'd slightly increase the cost of the AB and the NS.

But since this is GW, you are quite likely to see them go up by 50+ points and become terrible.