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flamingkillamajig wrote:@lynata: Well it turns out i read who said they hated tauroxes and being you when it wasn't.

Oh yeah, I actually haven't posted "my" list here yet. But if you insist:

1. Goddamn heels everywhere. More of a problem with artists in various licensed products (see FFG's RPG) ... except for GW's Mr. Blanche, who puts heels on everything.
2. Lack of female or even non-white male Imperials, especially in the Guard. The former is an issue of lack of minis, but I'd like to see some more variety amongst the men in the artworks, too. The Imperium is huge and varied in the fluff, it should be reflected in the minis and images.
3. Retroactive strengthening of formerly subtle themes in various armies, or even "stealing" assets from other armies in the course of this evolution. Example: The Dark Angels actually look more religious than the SoB now, and the Space Wolves have crossed the threshold between "tasteful" and "silly".
4. Dreadknight. Just ... no.
5. Taurox. There. I did it.

flamingkillamajig wrote:I also love the 'death camp' feel of the taurox. Very nice looking stuff indeed.

Absolutely. It's really just the mini-tracks that ruin it for me. As I said, it reminds me of the Terran Republic Sunderer, and I really love its boxy, rugged looks.


Reminds me of the German Army's Dingo, too.

flamingkillamajig wrote:I wouldn't mind seeing bullgryns mounted in tauroxes myself.

Every time I read that newly made-up name I keep thinking "bull grins".

ImAGeek wrote:

- MkVII power armour, since the FW earlier mark armour came out I realised how much I don't like the plastic power armour kits.

The day they release MkVI plastic kits is the day I start a space marines army.

@lynata: Really? I just imagine bullgryns are more roided up versions of Bane from 'Dark Knight Rises'.

I'm still surprised you're a dude lynata considering some of the complaints you have. Some of your opinions or complaints seem very female in origin. You know like the 'high heels' for instance. Yeah it makes no sense but it just sounds like something a guy wouldn't complain over. Guess not all guys are as pervy as me .

Also i don't get some people actually thought 40k is too sexual with women. If anything 40k is one of the most sexually toned down universes i've seen with the exception of slaanesh and he's the prince of pleasure and excess and of all things they have noise marines instead of fap marines. Seriously they're more like obnoxious kids that have their music up too loud rather than people at rave parties.

More on topic i still don't get why people hate the taurox. Sure it wasn't love at first sight for me but i grew to love it. A death camp vehicle makes sense for the imperium esp. with storm troopers. Now if only storm troopers would get power mauls and combat shields or give them arbites with those things.

------------

I still say most of the bad models originate from the space marine armies, possibly tau, maybe necrons and maybe nids. Guard, eldar of all types and orks are fantastic looking. Nids and necrons have some decent models but i've never been into the bugs too much as it's just not my style. Seriously find a terrible looking elf model from GW. It'll be hard to find as they really do elves well of all things.

@flamingkillamajig Because clearly the only reasons someone would want female characters is because they are themselves female or because they want to "perv" over something? Part of equality is being, you know, equal. I'm a white male, but I very much desire 40k to expand its character base to include more than just white males. As for sexual, were the high heels and boob armour not good enough clues? I'd also like to mention that Slaanesh is not the "God of Sex", despite how hard people wish that it was. Slaanesh is about getting what you want, and being beautiful while you get it.

So yes, men can be feminists too. This is a good thing.

1 - Games Workshop often forgetting that there are more types of people than "white male". This extends beyond the Imperium, unless there is some particular reason why all of the Xenos have to be white (Eldar) and male (Eldar, Tau, Necrons) whenever applicable. The completely needless line that women aren't allowed to pilot Imperial Knights. Seriously, GW, just look at the Relic games. Look at them. They are full of female characters (including but not limited to Farseers, Autarchs and Exarchs, an Imperial Guard commander, and my favourite Inquisitor ever) who are actually interesting, and black people (a Librarian and an Inquisitor) whose blackness is not due to being mutants! It's almost as if it isn't actually difficult to create such characters! The only good female character created by GW that I know of is Lady Malys, who will most likely cease to exist very soon (Lelith, unfortunately, does not count).

2 - "Heroic scale". I hate it with a burning passion. I can bypass it with my Tyranids and modified Space Marines, but it is seriously hampering my desire to expand my Eldar and Tau collections.

3 - "Orky" spelling, because it often goes much, much too far. Especially with all the totally unnecessary uses of the letter K in place of C. At least call them "Bombas" rather than "Bommerz"!

4 - Purity seals. Removing them is the second most tedious part of the hobby, the first being cleaning mold lines. Also, pointless skulls. So many skulls. Just when you think you've found all the skulls on a model, sometimes you find more. They're not even skull-like skulls, which is what particularly annoys me about them. They're the kind of skull you might see on the back of a cartoon spider, shaped more like a weird mushroom than an actual skull. It's like GW designers are afraid of smooth surfaces, so they throw skulls and purity seals (and to a lesser extent, rivets, but those don't bother me) on them until they go away.

5 - Little things about engineering that make no sense. The lack of Dreadnought knees and lift-generating surfaces on aircraft, even ones that have wings (this isn't just Imperial, as Tau and Eldar suffer from it too)! The exposed pistons and joints of bionics. The small belts of ammunition that dangle loosely from where the magazine should be on Chaos Space Marine bolters. The Chaos Space Marine box in general, which is ancient and is not really a good representation of how they should look. The Taurox tracks, of course.
Note:This point covers the Dreadknight baby carrier as well, but it doesn't deserve a number of its own because I love everything else about the Dreadknight.

Bonus 6 - Necrons being Tomb Kings. What's with all the tiaras?

Bonus 7 (last one!) - The obsession with putting silly faces on Chaos things. Look at the Chaos Titans, the Decimator, and random Chaos Marine bits. What, are those particular knees supposed to be extra daemonic or something? I wouldn't mind so much with the Decimator if its legs at least matched, but the Titan ones can not be described as anything other than silly faces.

EDIT: First result on a Google Image search for "silly face angry". Looks an awful lot like our knee-fiends there.

EDIT2: Knaemons?

 Lynata wrote:

flamingkillamajig wrote:@lynata: Well it turns out i read who said they hated tauroxes and being you when it wasn't.

Oh yeah, I actually haven't posted "my" list here yet. But if you insist:

1. Goddamn heels everywhere. More of a problem with artists in various licensed products (see FFG's RPG) ... except for GW's Mr. Blanche, who puts heels on everything.

Where are these heels, exactly? Because I'm pretty sure the SoB don't have them.
Unless you are specifically referring to Blance and these 3rd party licensed products, but that's hardly "everywhere"

1. Most of the daemon range. Exceptions being most Tzeentch things (except the LoC) and most of the Nurgle stuff (except the GUO). Slaanesh and Khorne need a big overhaul (except for steeds of slaanesh and the chariot, they're okay), daemonettes more so than anything else.

2. Misc. Tyranids. Honestly, they need a bit more variation in posing and details. The MCs all have basically varying sizes of carnifex bodies. No cool poses, just a bunch of ribs and chitin plates standing going "rar i guess".

3. IG cadians. DEM PROPORTIONS.

4. Necron characters and elite infantry. Whats with the silly crowns?

5. Helmetless anything.

I actually don't like the overall aesthetic of armies in 40k in general. The world aesthetic is massivly varied and really cool, but I don't feel that carries over to the models.

40k squads feel like a chore to paint because their so heavily militirised and samey. Fantasy models feel a lot more characterful to me and seem to have a lot more little details to them, whereas 40k models are almost all the same.

Which is weird because really it should be the other way around. Fantasy models are clumped together, so the details get lost, 40k models SHOULD stand out on their own.

Yeh, the crowns aren't...flattering. They don't even look like crowns, they look like this:



They look worse with GW paint jobs too, because the artist makes them stand out.

@flamingkillamajig: I wouldn't describe me as "not pervy" - it's just that I also like consistency and a certain minimum amount of realism in a setting when I'm supposed to take it serious. This includes warriors not handicapping themselves with silly clothing whose design is arguably based primarily on pandering.

There's a time and place for everything, including sexy stuff. For example, in Battletech the female MechWarriors sit in their cockpits wearing nothing but panties, combat boots, a shirt and a cooling vest. Nobody bats an eyelash because the setting explains that those cockpits get very hot, and because it's the same for the male pilots. Issue avoided!

I don't even have a particular problem with chainmail bikinis or boob plates, if they'd remain exceptions from the rule (with an appropriate cop-out such as "it's a tradition thing" or "we need mobility more than protection") rather than the rule itself. I've even defended SoB armour because it actually has an in-universe excuse.

The problem is that way too often it's just obvious fanservice, and I believe that takes away from the seriousness of a setting. If 40k wants to be grimdark, it ought to stop to take such a juvenile approach to certain topics.

But yes, I'm also terribly idealistic when it comes to society. I wish for a world where everyone is judged as an individual rather than based on a category they've been thrown into due to bias and stigmatisation. It's a naive thing to wish for, but one can dream. I haven't always felt like that and lived in blissful ignorance of these social issues for the greater part of my life, but I suppose something I've seen must have tipped the scales. Maybe because I've worked closely with many people of different genders, ethnicities and nationalities in all of the professions I've worked in so far, including the military (the unit I deployed with was 50/50 male-female, and some of the things people claim about female soldiers do make me angry as I perceive them as incredibly unfair, based on my own experiences).

Enough of that, tho.

In regards to the Taurox, are you sure that it's the shape that people dislike? Or not just the tracks as well?
Also, whilst I like the general idea of the vehicle, I too think it doesn't suit the Storm Troopers, based simply on how they used to deploy in the past 20 years of this IP. Valkyries. Dropship goes down, Storm Troopers jump out and shoot gak up, then board again. What exactly is the Taurox for in this regard? That's actually a step back in mobility. If you're limiting yourself to movement on the ground you may as well just call in the regular Guard.

Frozen Ocean wrote:I'd also like to mention that Slaanesh is not the "God of Sex", despite how hard people wish that it was. Slaanesh is about getting what you want, and being beautiful while you get it.

Although it should be said that the sex aspect shouldn't be entirely avoided either. Too often I see people act as if it wouldn't exist, thus basically swinging into the other extreme. Sex is by far not the only aspect/domain of Slaanesh - although I can easily believe it to be the strongest one, for at least when it comes to humans it's the one they are, on average, most vulnerable against. And this is represented in the looks of Slaaneshi daemons.
It certainly is a tricky balance to strike. Ultimately, none of the aspects should be left out and forgotten.

Also, isn't it rather the "God of Excess"? Beauty is just one aspect either - it's not how you look, it's what you feel.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Where are these heels, exactly? Because I'm pretty sure the SoB don't have them.
Unless you are specifically referring to Blance and these 3rd party licensed products, but that's hardly "everywhere"

SoB indeed do not have them (which is funny, because of how often they are brought up in this connection by people who mistakenly assume they do), although there is that one 2E cover artwork from Blanche...

Look at the Assassins here, though. I'm still kind of okay with it as I am desperately trying to justify that the Assassins may just be trained to kill with those shoes. Still tricky. However, the vast majority of GW's minis and artworks has been surprisingly heels-free, for what little there was in terms of human females. See also the Necromunda Escher line.

Hence my specific mention of third party products. The "everywhere" was hyperbole, of course, but I regard it as problematic because that stuff nowadays is more popular and widespread than Games Workshop's own books, which leads me to believe it has a greater chance of forming people's opinion/interpretation of the setting. I swear, 90% of all SoB fan art has them in high heels, which is just telling if you consider their lack in GW's own material.

This is a fairly recent pet peeve of mine, actually. Possibly because I consider this to be on the rise. I really think it didn't used to be that bad, but perhaps this is connected to the rise of 3rd party products over the past years, meaning that I've just never seen it so often as I do nowadays because a decade ago there was not as much licensed stuff to go around to begin with.



[edit]

Frozen Ocean wrote:The completely needless line that women aren't allowed to pilot Imperial Knights.

Did they ... explain that a little more? Or was it just "no girls allowed lol"?

Fair enough.
I tend not to count fan made stuff as part of the setting.
Because...well, let's say there is some questionable material out there.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I tend not to count fan made stuff as part of the setting.
Because...well, let's say there is some questionable material out there.

Absolutely. Me neither - that part of my criticism is directed at 95% licensees, and only 5% GW (Blanche ).

I'm quite found of Blanches style, actually...except for that 2nd ed Sister. That's just silly, even by 40k standards.
Those shoes shouldn't even fit on the foot >.<

CthuluIsSpy wrote:I'm quite found of Blanches style, actually...except for that 2nd ed Sister.

Yeah, same here. His art is very distinctive and helped shape the setting, giving it a unique vibe. It's why I can even forgive him the Assassins with their killer heels, using the aforementioned cop-out.

Just ... that Sister ... /cringe
Made worse by the background and the pose actually being very awesome, meaning it could have been so much better if not for a few glaring details (crazy shoes, limbs too thin, weird hair).

On the subject of heels, it could be reasoned that its for intimidation.

In the case of a commisar or rogue trader captain, people are going to be more intimidated by someone of equal or greater hight than someone a foot shorter than them.

Just a thought.

Sim-Life wrote:
On the subject of heels, it could be reasoned that its for intimidation.

In the case of a commisar or rogue trader captain, people are going to be more intimidated by someone of equal or greater hight than someone a foot shorter than them.

Just a thought.

No one's going to be intimidated by someone tripping and breaking their ankle during battle.

 MWHistorian wrote:

Sim-Life wrote:
On the subject of heels, it could be reasoned that its for intimidation.

In the case of a commisar or rogue trader captain, people are going to be more intimidated by someone of equal or greater hight than someone a foot shorter than them.

Just a thought.

No one's going to be intimidated by someone tripping and breaking their ankle during battle.

If you trip and break an ankle during a battle, then intimidation is the least of your concerns.
In fact, those who survive combat in heels would be even more worthy of respect

Doesn't power armour have motors in it that assists the wearer in maintaining balance?

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Doesn't power armour have motors in it that assists the wearer in maintaining balance?

That too. Also, getting kicked in the face with a power heel would be very very painful.
Stilletto heels can dent hard wood floors just be walking on them irl, you know.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Doesn't power armour have motors in it that assists the wearer in maintaining balance?

Wouldn't that require the armour to have its own sense of balance? And how would the armour know how the wearer wants to move?

Seraphim: "I wanna tip over forward to jump down this building, Ghost in the Shell-style."
Power Armour: "No you don't."
Seraphim: "FFS, this is why nobody likes the Mechanicus!"

In Battletech, this is why combat pilots require a neural connection with their walker:

"However, gyroscopic orientation-sensing and accelerometer feedback is insufficient to maintain control of the 'Mech. Accelerometers and gyroscopes can not distinguish between intentional and hazardous changes in acceleration or direction, for instance the jerk felt when accelerating from standing to running or the sudden change of mass due to a lost limb, respectively. To distinguish between intent and peril, the MechWarrior's own equilibrium is monitored by a Neurohelmet connected to the gyro's computer. If both the MechWarrior's equilibrium and the balance-sensing mechanisms of the BattleMech agree, the gyro attempts to stabilize the machine."
-- http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Gyro#Balance

Still the best SoBoot, imo:

Don't let anyone tell them they can have blades in their boots without having to wear heels (I think it was Ragnar Blackmane who had blades concealed in his boots?)

Interesting that in that picture she only actually has one high heel?

The other is not?

I think its an awesome pic

Wouldn't it just be a simple mechanism that stops the wearing from falling over, unless pushed over by an external force?

Power armor doesn't appear to be something you want to fall over in.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Interesting that in that picture she only actually has one high heel?

The other is not?

I think its an awesome pic

I think the other heel is buried by rubble.

I like it too, but I think the Sister in the foreground could be better.
Skull nipples and impossible shoes ahoy!

 Lynata wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Doesn't power armour have motors in it that assists the wearer in maintaining balance?

Wouldn't that require the armour to have its own sense of balance? And how would the armour know how the wearer wants to move?

Maybe it's only SM armour then? I remember reading it in one of the Space Wolf novels, while walking down a steep slippery slope the SM could hear the motors in his suit whirring to help keep balance or some such.

Mr Morden wrote:Interesting that in that picture she only actually has one high heel?
The other is not?

I think that's just the fire covering a part of the boot - the tip still goes down to the same level.

Would be funny if the heels were extendable tho. Switchheels. Like switchblades, just for your shoes!

CthuluIsSpy wrote:Wouldn't it just be a simple mechanism that stops the wearing from falling over, unless pushed over by an external force?

How would it know the wearer doesn't want to "fall over", though? In order to actually stop the fall, the armour would have to intervene at a rather early moment which would also prevent a lot of other movement. The armour cannot predict your move, so it won't know whether it's intentional (you about to counterbalance it with your own limbs, or even just firing your jump-pack) or not.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Maybe it's only SM armour then? I remember reading it in one of the Space Wolf novels, while walking down a steep slippery slope the SM could hear the motors in his suit whirring to help keep balance or some such.

Maybe - although of course you'd still get the same sound anyways when the wearer moves normally. If the wearer balances him- or herself out, the armour will help with that, as it helps with any move you make.

Come to think of it, the armour shouldn't have its own sense of balance even in the case of Space Marines, because there the armour and the wearer simply "become one", and the armour essentially uses the Marine's sense of balance, as if its electrical motors were part of his flesh.
In Battletech on the other hand, the 'Mech does have its own sense of balance, but the neural connection allows the MechWarrior to override it in order to move.

BrianDavion wrote:
Terminator Helmets.

they just look kinda stupid. when I put together some CSM termies I replaced all their helmets with standard power armor ones, they looked WAAAAY better

no. terminators are amazing.
dreadknights suck.
centurions suck, their legs are bricks.
dark eldar are toothpicks.
and i stabbed myself on a metal one once....

I only have 1 displeasing aesthetic of 40K.
This thing:

Not sure if it is fire covering it or not............it def looks more solid than her other boot?

Nikita and Alex fight (fought) in high heels all the time - please no one tell me its not a realistic show!

This will always be the best Witch Hunters/Inquisition pic:

 Lynata wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:Maybe it's only SM armour then? I remember reading it in one of the Space Wolf novels, while walking down a steep slippery slope the SM could hear the motors in his suit whirring to help keep balance or some such.

Maybe - although of course you'd still get the same sound anyways when the wearer moves normally. If the wearer balances him- or herself out, the armour will help with that, as it helps with any move you make.

Come to think of it, the armour shouldn't have its own sense of balance even in the case of Space Marines, because there the armour and the wearer simply "become one", and the armour essentially uses the Marine's sense of balance, as if its electrical motors were part of his flesh.
In Battletech on the other hand, the 'Mech does have its own sense of balance, but the neural connection allows the MechWarrior to override it in order to move.

If could be doing something more subtle though. The suit could just be sensing when the load path is not aligned through the foot at an angle that will keep the person from failing over and make minor adjustments so the wearer can better maintain grip. Wouldn't stop a person falling over and it wouldn't be able to stand by itself, but if you started to fall and went to save yourself or were sliding down a steep embankment trying not to fall over, it would assist you in that.

5. Certain terrible vehicle exit locations. As wonderful as the models are in general, I would love to see conversions that would remove those issues of friendly fire.
4. Lack of bodily protection. Gentlemen (and occasionally Ladies), you are among the finest tacticians your respective faction can produce, be it T'au, Adeptas Astartes, Eldar, or even Ork (Especially Ork.). Bring appropriate full body armor and helmet to prevent quick and immediate death upon the battlefield.

For the following 3 responses, I apologize to all the veteran SoB players, especially SisterSydney and Furyou Miku. I surrender myself to your flamers for summary execution for heresy.

3. Exorcists. I would perfer a far better pun than a couple ladies who can play some pretty explosive solos.
2. Sisters of Battle haircuts. I'm sorry ladies, but that style is not a mandate of the God Emperor of Mankind. Feel free to show some minor individuality as long as you punish yourself appropriately for it later.
1. Adepta Sororitas armor. Oh how I wish there was a more modern version without the boobplate and heels. I can understand the flair they were going for in the 80s, but that armor just does not look like it can be rated at 4+ save, let alone 3+. Heck, I picked up some Sisters just recently, and I think I see rivets on the cloak.

 Unyielding Hunger wrote:
5. Certain terrible vehicle exit locations. As wonderful as the models are in general, I would love to see conversions that would remove those issues of friendly fire.
4. Lack of bodily protection. Gentlemen (and occasionally Ladies), you are among the finest tacticians your respective faction can produce, be it T'au, Adeptas Astartes, Eldar, or even Ork (Especially Ork.). Bring appropriate full body armor and helmet to prevent quick and immediate death upon the battlefield.

For the following 3 responses, I apologize to all the veteran SoB players, especially SisterSydney and Furyou Miku. I surrender myself to your flamers for summary execution for heresy.

3. Exorcists. I would perfer a far better pun than a couple ladies who can play some pretty explosive solos.
2. Sisters of Battle haircuts. I'm sorry ladies, but that style is not a mandate of the God Emperor of Mankind. Feel free to show some minor individuality as long as you punish yourself appropriately for it later.
1. Adepta Sororitas armor. Oh how I wish there was a more modern version without the boobplate and heels. I can understand the flair they were going for in the 80s, but that armor just does not look like it can be rated at 4+ save, let alone 3+. Heck, I picked up some Sisters just recently, and I think I see rivets on the cloak.

As a former SOB player, I agree on the exo's. Mine were always Whirlwinds with frescos painted on them and extra bling.