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I can't really support a company's artists that make this:

 jah-joshua wrote:
fair enough, Accolade, but again i ask, where did i say anyone should buy GW???

i was simply expressing which aspect of GW i love...
i could understand if my post was just overlooked as irrelevant, which it may be in this thread...
i think i may have misunderstood what we are talking about in this topic...

what i am surprised at is the knee-jerk reaction against me saying something nice about the studio, and how it was interpreted to mean, "buy GW, you ungrateful bastards", which is not what i said at all...

as to the subject of the second part of your post, i was also stating that i am one of those "collectors" that GW is always on about...
i have never been a gamer, but have always been a collector...
so it is not like the "collector" is some mythic beast that only exists in Kirby's imagination...
i bought my first blister pack 30 years ago, without ever knowing anything about the rules, or even that there was a game...
i just wanted to paint cool minis...

i know i am in the minority, and i am happy to do my thing without attacking anyone for their way of enjoying miniatures, or even people expressing their dissatisfaction...
i am not going to be silent about what i love, but rather express that i am one happy customer...
i am much more likely to keep quiet about the things i dislike, because i don't enjoy spreading negative waves...

cheers
jah

Fair enough, jah. I wasn't trying to attack you, so if I came across as such I do apologize. Damn GW management is tearing this dakka-family apart!

I do however stand by my opinions that GW management is foolish to continue down the track they are going. Continual alienation of the "game" aspect will only manage to convince everyone that GW does NOT produce games, and therefore their models are only for collecting purposes. Once that happens, the collectors will be fine and go on their way, but the HUGE portion of the customer base that at least fantasizing about putting their miniatures on the table will decide to go another direction. And I highly doubt GW will be able to survive on the backs of collectors alone. Or maybe they'll just become a boutique store and shed almost all of their assets. Either way that doesn't seem to be a positive direction.

Of course, I realize GW believes they are a game company. If not, they wouldn't be trying to wring every dollar and cent out of the cow labelled "codex".

 MWHistorian wrote:
I can't really support a company's artists that make this:

It elements there is some beautiful work there. As a whole concept if fails miserably.

Individual artists might be rightly very proud of that.

If you look at some of the upper level people in GW's linked in page, you'll see things like Mark Wells being head of product design before he was CEO. The actually people in charge of GW's creative direction are not creatives.

@Azreal13: i don't claim to know how much influence the studio has with the execs, or even how much leeway they get...
i will say i wish it was significantly more than it seems to be...

one thing i do know is that Jes Goodwin has produced some of the most inspirational work in the industry for the entire 25-odd years i've been collecting Marines...
he is a very interesting person to have a chat with, and his sketchbooks are like a reflection of my imagination's wildest dreams come true, when it comes to mini design...

i highly doubt that he, even as the most influential studio sculptor, has the final say in what the studio actually produces, and how much those kits cost...
i never asked him, because in 2008, when i last spoke to him, GW was in an entirely different state than it is now...

i can say that Darren Lathem, who moved from the 'Eavy Metal team to sculpting a couple of years ago, is very proud of the work he did on the Space Marine kits a year ago, and rightly so, in my opinion...

Steve Buddle, who ran his own miniature company Spyglass for quite a few years, struggled hard to make it as an independent, and now seems relatively stress-free as a studio sculptor...
does he feel like he sold out???
i don't know...
i might just have to ask him...

our own Brother Tom seems quite happy on the 'Eavy Metal team, and proudly posts his studio minis on his Facebook page after the releases...
he does good work, and i am happy he is free of the grind of commissions and freelance work, that i deal with...

same goes for our own wickedcarrot, who is happily beavering away as one of the army painters in the studio...

some people are built for corporate work...
i am not, and thus i struggle to make a living off of mini painting...
i just happen to be happy for those who can pull off the gig...
i am not passing judgement one way or the other, just saying that i think the studio does some great work, regardless of how the execs are steering the ship...

@MWHistorian: we already know you no longer support GW's product, but remember that art appreciation is subjective...
just as many people dislike the aesthetic of PP's minis, though i love them...
people have said the same thing you just did about Logan Grimnar over the Epic mounted versions of Borka, Xerxis, and Lylith(sp?)...
i just happen to like all of them...
i am ambivilent about Logans's sled, but i think the man himself is an amazing sculpt, and look forward to a chance to paint him...

@ Accolade: i didn't feel like you were attacking me...
i did feel like Plataun4th was a bit out-of-line to say that my post reads like fan boying over the studio because i happen to know some of the artists...
like i said, i consider it an honor to know some of the sculptors, painters, and illustrators, and to be able to exchange ideas with them, and talk shop...
it makes me a better painter...

cheers
jah

 jah-joshua wrote:
@Azreal13: i don't claim to know how much influence the studio has with the execs, or even how much leeway they get...
i will say i wish it was significantly more than it seems to be...

one thing i do know is that Jes Goodwin has produced some of the most inspirational work in the industry for the entire 25-odd years i've been collecting Marines...
he is a very interesting person to have a chat with, and his sketchbooks are like a reflection of my imagination's wildest dreams come true, when it comes to mini design...

i highly doubt that he, even as the most influential studio sculptor, has the final say in what the studio actually produces, and how much those kits cost...
i never asked him, because in 2008, when i last spoke to him, GW was in an entirely different state than it is now...

i can say that Darren Lathem, who moved from the 'Eavy Metal team to sculpting a couple of years ago, is very proud of the work he did on the Space Marine kits a year ago, and rightly so, in my opinion...

Steve Buddle, who ran his own miniature company Spyglass for quite a few years, struggled hard to make it as an independent, and now seems relatively stress-free as a studio sculptor...
does he feel like he sold out???
i don't know...
i might just have to ask him...

our own Brother Tom seems quite happy on the 'Eavy Metal team, and proudly posts his studio minis on his Facebook page after the releases...
he does good work, and i am happy he is free of the grind of commissions and freelance work, that i deal with...

same goes for our own wickedcarrot, who is happily beavering away as one of the army painters in the studio...

some people are built for corporate work...
i am not, and thus i struggle to make a living off of mini painting...
i just happen to be happy for those who can pull off the gig...
i am not passing judgement one way or the other, just saying that i think the studio does some great work, regardless of how the execs are steering the ship...

I agree, the studio does some great work, but just looking at the people you mention here, painters almost definitely aren't in a position to affect change any more than window dressers are in a position to influence how a department store is run, no matter how good they are, and while I agree the SM Veteran kits are very nice, I recently got some Sternguard myself, I would firmly put that in the safe category from what I was discussing before, they are a collection of really nice Space Marine bits, but fundamentally no different from anything produced since the 90s (hard to be edgy and new with a Space Marine kit admittedly, but still..)

Jes, I'm given to understand is more of a quarterback these days, and doesn't do so much actual sculpting, but it would be ignorant not to acknowledge his contribution. It would probably be him that could be considered the figurehead or focus of any issues originating from the creative side of the company though, now you mention him, as he has undoubtedly proven his talent and understanding of what makes good Warhammer miniatures many times over, and given his years of service and seniority, one has to wonder whether he genuinely thinks the more eccentric models are good, doesn't care or cares but is unable to do anything about it.

 MWHistorian wrote:
I can't really support a company's artists that make this:

Spoiler:

img]http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/Logan-Grimnar-Mounted-II.jpg[/img]

I don't see why not. That model is hilarious.

That Logan Grimnar would look great on a big feth-off rock. Can Logan Grimnar still be fielded on foot in his Terminator armour, or is the stupid chariot the only way he can be used now after the recent Codex?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Azreal13 wrote:
[...]while I agree the SM Veteran kits are very nice, I recently got some Sternguard myself, I would firmly put that in the safe category from what I was discussing before, they are a collection of really nice Space Marine bits, but fundamentally no different from anything produced since the 90s (hard to be edgy and new with a Space Marine kit admittedly, but still..)[...]

Well, to the best of my knowledge they've never done a True Scale kit for Space Marines, so there is that...

Come to think of it, a True Scale conversion kit (correctly proportioned torsos and limbs etc that can be combined with existing weapons and other bitz) would be fantastic if they ever relaunched Inquisition as a 28mm game as discussed on this forum a while back.

I lack the time, money and inclination to do an entire True Scale army, but 5-10 models for a proper skirmish scale game ala Kill Team or Inquisition? Definitely.

@Azrael13: i think we are almost talking past each other here...

my original post, and the rest since, are only about me expressing my appreciation for the work the sculptors, painters, illustrators, and fiction writers are doing...
your posts seem to be concerned about effecting change within the way GW is doing business...
we are not on the same subject...

i hear you, man...
like i said before, i guess i should not have posted my original thought in this thread, because it didn't really touch on the subject of something being rotten in the tower of GW HQ...
i was just expressing that i don't have a problem with the creative cats in the company, and also the fact that i am one of the mythical collectors, which a few people had mentioned not existing...

i'm done derailing this thread now...

Edit: @Shadow Captain Edithae: Logan comes stock in the Termie armor, and then the Chariot is an add-on, according to the new Codex...

cheers
jah

We're not talking past each other really, you tried to make the point that 'corporate' GW are the bad guys and that 'creative' GW are good people, I was merely trying (and, apparently, failing!) to say that the whole "for evil to flourish all it takes is for good men to do nothing" idea applies, and therefore regardless of how decent individuals may be, the whole design department is at least partially culpable, when they're not always putting out work of mind blowing quality, for the hole that GW finds itself, if not in, windmilling it's arms on the edge of.

Were the rules to be top notch, the complaints about balance, day 1 DLC and their cost would become muted, if not disappear entirely, if the sculpts were consistently top notch, the issues about poor value would likely follow suit. These are issues firmly in the hands of the design department, even if they are generated by managerial pressure.

And my point was that the individuals of the creative team are irrelevant in this discussion.
Maybe they're outstanding guys. I don't know. GW keeps them locked away in an ivory tower so all I can judge them on is their work which has been the technical aspect has been truly astounding. (Though I'd fire whoever made the Taurox.) As an artist and author, I get what you're saying and talent should be recognized and rewarded.
But this conversation's about GW as a whole and as such, they're utterly lacking.

 jah-joshua wrote:

i did feel like Plataun4th was a bit out-of-line to say that my post reads like fan boying over the studio because i happen to know some of the artists...
like i said, i consider it an honor to know some of the sculptors, painters, and illustrators, and to be able to exchange ideas with them, and talk shop...
it makes me a better painter...

cheers
jah

I'm sorry if you felt slighted or insulted by it, I was just stating that that's how it reads as opposed to how you meant it to come across since you asked if your intention wasn't obvious. I know I sound like a fanboy when I discuss the art for PP since I know the Art Director personally. There's also a big difference over something reading like fanboying and it actually being fanboying(you'll note I never actually said it was or that your were doing so).

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
That Logan Grimnar would look great on a big feth-off rock. Can Logan Grimnar still be fielded on foot in his Terminator armour, or is the stupid chariot the only way he can be used now after the recent Codex?

You can still field him on foot, but the only way to get the model is to buy the chariot. And presumably a base, since in a fit of marketing 'genius' they made the model slot right into a slotta-base-sized circle on the chariot rather than making it a removable piece...

Given that the response from GW was that the rules don't matter, it's the collecting and painting of their stuff... does this mean that you & a mate can take you GW armies to a GW store and play games using some else's ruleset? Also if rules are a side issue, why bother producing great big expensive hardbacks? Why not produce free downloadable rules and Codexes that encourage you to buy more models? Surely that would be cheaper and work just as well?