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Since the charge range of the Hades is: "3d6, discard the highest", wouldn't it be lower then 9 or 10?
I think am average charge range of 4-6 is more likely, with anything like 9" being the exception. Which means your threat range will be only 12", and then you won't be certain of making the charge at all. Or do I misinterpret the rules?

Singleton Mosby wrote:
Since the charge range of the Hades is: "3d6, discard the highest", wouldn't it be lower then 9 or 10?
I think am average charge range of 4-6 is more likely, with anything like 9" being the exception. Which means your threat range will be only 12", and then you won't be certain of making the charge at all. Or do I misinterpret the rules?

Here is the source for the 9-10 probability for 3d6, drop the highest.

http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php#

 Crabbit wrote:

Singleton Mosby wrote:
Since the charge range of the Hades is: "3d6, discard the highest", wouldn't it be lower then 9 or 10?
I think am average charge range of 4-6 is more likely, with anything like 9" being the exception. Which means your threat range will be only 12", and then you won't be certain of making the charge at all. Or do I misinterpret the rules?

Here is the source for the 9-10 probability for 3d6, drop the highest.

http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php#

Pretty sure there's a bug there, since it lists probabilities of rolling up to 17 with 3d6, drop the highest. Seems it's just rolling 3d6 subtract 1.

So I got a game in with the new Hades rules. I'm not entirely sure it's a great representation of their value, but I found it quite amusing.

So, I ran two units of five engineers, each with a Hades drill.

I'm facing an SW army with a single knight, running an Assault Brigade and an allied Siege Regiment detachment. I get first turn, don't accomplish much, he moves up turn 2 and then back to me.

So both drills come in, I DS them behind the Knight, thinking he'll have to deal with the Rapiers to the fore, and the Drills behind. Well, turned out to largely be irrelevant, the Rapiers kill the Knight on the next turn, and its explosion puts a bunch of wounds on the Engineer units, and some bolter shots finish off one of the drills and largely cripple the last one. However, the last Drill has a single Engineer left, and thus majority T7 kicks in.

This is where things got lulzy. Assaulted a unit of 8 Grey Hunters, kill 4 on the charge (3 from HoW), they have to fight against T7, and I save the only wound it takes. They don't get to use their Krak Grenades or Meltabombs because it's neither a vehicle nor MC but simple Infantry, and have to continue fighting the unit at T7.

By the end of the game, 2 remaining GH's were locked in combat with the drill, 7 were killed over the course of the game by it. That majority T7 that kicks in when the unit gets whittled down, coupled with the fact that the Drill is technically Infantry and thus makes all those grenades pointless, makes it a hilarious tarpit.

Expect to see lots of MSU engineer drill units as a result methinks in DKoK armies.

I see two high points here:

Renegade horde list are better at being DKoK than the DKoK themselves are.

Drills require plasma or wipeout before T7 kicks in, otherwise it will not die.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see two high points here:

Renegade horde list are better at being DKoK than the DKoK themselves are.

Oddly enough, yes. GW seems to think WS4 and the morale rules are reason enough to make basic DKoK grunts cost more than codex Veterans.

Drills require plasma or wipeout before T7 kicks in, otherwise it will not die.

Pretty much. a smart player will put a bunch of engineers (and the Watchmaster) ahead of the drill and like one or two guys behind it to absorb shooting (and get rid of the Watchmaster so he can't potentially be challenged out in CC and his Ld isn't needed against shooting attacks) while keeping enough alive to keep the Drill around, then once in CC allocate wounds to the 3+sv W3 drill while keeping that last dude alive.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Pretty much. a smart player will put a bunch of engineers (and the Watchmaster) ahead of the drill and like one or two guys behind it to absorb shooting (and get rid of the Watchmaster so he can't potentially be challenged out in CC and his Ld isn't needed against shooting attacks) while keeping enough alive to keep the Drill around, then once in CC allocate wounds to the 3+sv W3 drill while keeping that last dude alive.

Best put a Heavy flamer team behind. Counts as one model with two wounds, T7 in this case and has a chunky weapon to boot!

 Ashiraya wrote:
I see two high points here:

Renegade horde list are better at being DKoK than the DKoK themselves are.

Drills require plasma or wipeout before T7 kicks in, otherwise it will not die.

I have this feeling as well. I made and ran a Renegade horde list the other day, but with all the platoons beefed up to better WS/BS and krak grenades with loads of melta at 20 man. It ran pretty well and only lacked in anti air firepower, although I gave up my warlord pretty quick to long range fire. I am now going to try a new list with a similar element but I will also mix in squads with CC weapons

Can watchmasters/sergeants have lasguns or are they forced to have pistol CCW like the astra militarum rules?

Mechanicore wrote:
Can watchmasters/sergeants have lasguns or are they forced to have pistol CCW like the astra militarum rules?

Infantry squad watchmasters can have lasguns. Engineer squad watchmasters come with shotguns by default like the rest of the squad. Death rider watchmasters can not take lasguns, but the whole squad is pistol/CCW only so that's no surprise. Platoon and company commanders can only have pistol/CCW options.

Sweet so if i buy this book i don't have to make new sergeants. Since astra militarum requires p/ccw.

I played the Breaching drill for the first time today against traitor guard. Still a bit undecided about it.
The charge range makes it a tricky unit since the "3d6, discard the highest" is seriously hampering your charge. Furthermore the BS2 isn't something to write home about either. Of course, when you park the drill against a vehicle or MC it is as sweet as can be.
On the plus side I liked to tunnel during the movement phase, quickly getting everywhere I wanted with my melta and heavy flamer. That was nice for sure!

The Death Rider detachment I'd pure win! It is an awesome sight on the table and these guys are just good. I ran 18 riders behind a screen of two Conquerors and a Hellhound. Two bombard supplied the fire support. I can tell you, that combination is nice to play with!

The drill is a very situational unit to be sure, but does have some useful applications.

neogeo wrote:

 Crabbit wrote:

Singleton Mosby wrote:
Since the charge range of the Hades is: "3d6, discard the highest", wouldn't it be lower then 9 or 10?
I think am average charge range of 4-6 is more likely, with anything like 9" being the exception. Which means your threat range will be only 12", and then you won't be certain of making the charge at all. Or do I misinterpret the rules?

Here is the source for the 9-10 probability for 3d6, drop the highest.

http://rumkin.com/reference/dnd/diestats.php#

Pretty sure there's a bug there, since it lists probabilities of rolling up to 17 with 3d6, drop the highest. Seems it's just rolling 3d6 subtract 1.

I guess I have nothing better to do with my time so I wrote a program to calculate it

The average for 3D6 drop the highest is 5.5417. The distribution is...

2 = 7.4074%
3 = 12.5000%
4 = 15.7407%
5 = 16.6667%
6 = 15.7407%
7 = 12.5000%
8 = 8.7963%
9 = 5.5556%
10= 3.2407%
11= 1.3889%
12= 0.4630%

Thanks for the correction! That seems more realistic.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Oddly enough, yes. GW seems to think WS4 and the morale rules are reason enough to make basic DKoK grunts cost more than codex Veterans.

In my opinion, DKoK infantrymen should be dropped to WS3 (WS4 is the realm of advanced melee fighters, honestly, not even Scions get it) and get a nicely significant points drop as well. They may need a price drop anyway, and with WS3 they definitely should have one, maybe even a greater one.

The cheaper the better in fact, though I can't think of any other suitable stat to drop to drop price further.

DKoK are famed for their zerg tactics, so they should be able to use zerg tactics! And low cost is key to that. Also, unit recycling. The IA13 renegade Master of the Horde or whatshisname is hilariously good at it. DKoK should get a Chenkov at the very least.

Elysians from D99 get WS4 and aren't really CC focused.

Which is just as odd. I mean, as said not even Scions get it.

GW's all over the place, FW doesn't or well, is less all over the place.

 Ashiraya wrote:
(WS4 is the realm of advanced melee fighters, honestly, not even Scions get it)

Advanced melee fighters like IG platoon commanders? Basic storm troopers don't get WS 4 because they're a shooting unit with hardly any more melee skill/training than regular IG troops. DKoK guardsmen, on the other hand, train obsessively for melee combat. So it makes sense that they'd have at least the same WS as a platoon commander who is just a regular guardsman with a sword.

As for WS 3 justifying a points drop, not really. The to-hit chart for WS really minimizes the value of a good WS stat and even DKoK guardsmen are still primarily a shooting unit. Having WS 4 is a tiny part of the cost of a DKoK unit and dropping to WS 3 probably wouldn't justify even a 1-point decrease. So all you're really doing is nerfing a minor fluff attribute without making any significant balance changes.

DKoK should get a Chenkov at the very least.

The IA12 list has a Chenkov-style ability where you can respawn a destroyed platoon. I really have no idea why the IA:Vraks version of the list omitted it, especially without changing the point costs of platoons. Adding it back by house rule would make a lot more sense than any other changes.

DKoK have always been very good in CC. In their original Chapter Approved list they were actually Fearless in close combat, and were WS4 in the 3.5E codex.

Honestly, as for Scions, I think it's a travesty they don't have WS4 and at least Ld8/9 like the Skitarii have, but that's another topic altogether. DKoK aren't necessarily super skilled fighters in and of themselves, but are very aggressive and are much better trained to act as a coordinated assault unit than most typical IG units. It's really more of a "1v1 they're not really that great, but as a coordinated unit they're incredible", and WS4 was just the easiest way to represent that.

I'd give it up in a heartbeat though if it meant one could take DKoK infantry units at anything resembling a sane price. Even in the assault brigade where they can recycle they're absurdly overcosted. Tyranids can do the same thing for free with formations.

The WS4 also usually hurts more often than it helps, often making it so an enemy unit whiffs *just enough* to not quite wipe the squad and gets to hide in CC.

The lack of any ability to blob up is also really odd, given that they're built on WW1 infantry units that generally operated much more with entire companies as the smallest element of maneuver as opposed to squads or fire teams. They'd be the perfect army for it.

However, even with WS4, they're not worth 70pts per squad, not by a long shot. They could make them identical to basic IG units in cost, keep the heavy weapon out, and allow blobbing, and you'd have a pretty solidly balanced WW1 style IG unit that's a little more capable in assaults but a lot less shooty.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Even in the assault brigade where they can recycle they're absurdly overcosted.

Really? You pay 40% more for a squad (20% more if you consider the standard "+1 point per model for special rules" tax FW tends to add) compared to codex IG, and if you respawn it once you get at least 100% more value. Deploy them up front as meatshields, then once they're killed you respawn them as objective campers in your own deployment zone.

Tyranids can do the same thing for free with formations.

Sure, but formations are an incredibly stupid execution of a questionable idea. "Is this as broken as one of GW's worst balance mistakes" shouldn't be the standard for whether or not a unit is reasonably priced.

The lack of any ability to blob up is also really odd, given that they're built on WW1 infantry units that generally operated much more with entire companies as the smallest element of maneuver as opposed to squads or fire teams. They'd be the perfect army for it.

It's a fluff thing. I suspect someone at FW didn't like the addition of combined squads in 5th edition and took them out. And really it's not an ability that makes much sense fluff-wise since the squad still keeps its own sergeant/weapon upgrades/etc. You still have individual squads of guardsmen, you just treat them as one unit for rules purposes in a game that isn't really designed to handle 50-model units.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Even in the assault brigade where they can recycle they're absurdly overcosted.

Really? You pay 40% more for a squad (20% more if you consider the standard "+1 point per model for special rules" tax FW tends to add) compared to codex IG, and if you respawn it once you get at least 100% more value. Deploy them up front as meatshields, then once they're killed you respawn them as objective campers in your own deployment zone.

It only works if the entire platoon has been destroyed, which is extremely situational (and which an opponent can often game quite well), and the Renegades and Heretics can do the same thing, paying *far* less, and can recycle units as they're destroyed rather than waiting on the whole platoon. I'd also rather just be able to start half again as many infantry units on the board in the first place.

Sure, but formations are an incredibly stupid execution of a questionable idea. "Is this as broken as one of GW's worst balance mistakes" shouldn't be the standard for whether or not a unit is reasonably priced.

You're absolutely right, but it's the reality of the game as is, and GW are only looking to be doubling-down on it by the look of releases over the last couple months.

It's a fluff thing. I suspect someone at FW didn't like the addition of combined squads in 5th edition and took them out. And really it's not an ability that makes much sense fluff-wise since the squad still keeps its own sergeant/weapon upgrades/etc. You still have individual squads of guardsmen, you just treat them as one unit for rules purposes in a game that isn't really designed to handle 50-model units.

Yeah, it would just make sense that if *any* IG army is going to operate that way, it'd be the DKoK, who explicitly can't. There's no good balance reason for them not to have such an ability.

 Vaktathi wrote:
It only works if the entire platoon has been destroyed, which is extremely situational (and which an opponent can often game quite well)

I don't think it's that situational. You deploy them up front as meatshields for the rest of your army and force your opponent to go through them. Either they ignore them, fail to make any progress on getting to your real threats, and suffer a round of melta shots before getting charged, or they kill them to get to the stuff that matters. I'm not really sure how you can fail to get a platoon killed before the end of the game if you're trying to martyr your meatshields.

and the Renegades and Heretics can do the same thing, paying *far* less, and can recycle units as they're destroyed rather than waiting on the whole platoon.

They're cheaper in terms of point cost, but they have much higher prerequisites. You have to take a specific detachment with a specific HQ choice (and give up the awesome "drop artillery on my own models" rule), and you have to take at least four squads (plus either four more squads or two of the pretty bad alternative troops) to meet the special detachment FOC requirements. And you only get BS/WS 2 with unreliable leadership instead of WS 2/BS 3 "fearless". The IA12 list just pays an extra 30 points to make its platoons respawn, and allows you to take a single platoon as meatshields to support your tanks/death riders/etc. So, for example, you can take that wonderful death rider detachment and throw in a respawning meatshield platoon to give your death riders some protection as they move into position and then respawn on your "home" objectives (the ones your cavalry has probably advanced away from).

In short: the renegades list is great if you want a pure respawning hordes army, but if you want respawning meatshields added to a "conventional" IG army the IA12 list is still good. And the IA:Vraks list would have been good if its platoons had the same respawn rule as the IA12 version.

Yeah, it would just make sense that if *any* IG army is going to operate that way, it'd be the DKoK, who explicitly can't. There's no good balance reason for them not to have such an ability.

I suspect what happened is someone at FW said "this is stupid and shouldn't exist at all for any army" and removed it from the FW lists as a matter of principle. Unfortunately GW doesn't bother to communicate between their divisions so the "main" rule authors didn't go along with it.

Did anybody use the Hades Breaching Drill in a game in the last couple of weeks? I am curious what your thoughts are about it after using it in action.

I will be using two Hades' during a 3000 point escalation game later today. Hope to ram it into Ghaskul and a Stompa just to see how effective the Drill is.

I played a couple of games with them. They were unfortunately pointless against the Necrons, but did well against Space Wolves (as above).

I used two Hades' against Orks in a 3000pts game yesterday. They are very situational and rather difficult to handle. When the enemy is shooting at them the Hades has to be at the back but when you are charging it needs to be in front. Otherwise it will not be able to use its HOW attacks (has to end up in base to base contact). This I failed to do on one occasion which is a pitty.
However, when the drill hits home against vehicles, it is a terrible massacre for sure.

Once your opponent knows what the drill can do they will turn into a certain fire-magnet. So they might be killed often without doing anything. However, their 4++ might help soak up a bit more then their worth. I also found the drill useful when tunneling in order to get closer to the enemy. In my next game I will not deepstrike the drill but deploy it out of sight and then hop from target to target, whilst tunneling. Using a heavy flamer and melta to good effect. If the unit is within 10" of an enemy you can hazard a charge. The charge range is however very short.

Given all the discussion on the pros and cons of the IA12 Unstoppable Advance/Forlorn Hope, have any of you ever run a pure infantry list with these rules? If so, how did it go? I have an opportunity to pick-up a large lot of DKoK infantry platoons on the cheap and was curious if an all infantry list is fun-casual-competitive.

I posted a preliminary list idea here.