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Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Trying to focus on specific example to disprove a general point is lousy technique Kan.

The point was that recasts were priced at what felt like a reasonable price for what was on offer. If there isn't a whole raft of companies offering exactly the same thing for exactly the same price, it doesn't really detract from that.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in us
Ollanius Pius - Savior of the Emperor






Gathering the Informations.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Trying to focus on specific example to disprove a general point is lousy technique Kan.

The point was that recasts were priced at what felt like a reasonable price for what was on offer. If there isn't a whole raft of companies offering exactly the same thing for exactly the same price, it doesn't really detract from that.

The point he made was that "5 for $25 is in line with what other companies charge".

When you can only name one company that charges near that(and for the record? I think Mantic does the same with their Corporation "Enforcers", but I have not seen the models in person so cannot say), it suggests that the point is invalid.
   
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Rampaging Chaos Russ Driver




I draw all my morality from laws.

Specifically laws made and paid for by the companies who want them enforced.

   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

 Kanluwen wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Trying to focus on specific example to disprove a general point is lousy technique Kan.

The point was that recasts were priced at what felt like a reasonable price for what was on offer. If there isn't a whole raft of companies offering exactly the same thing for exactly the same price, it doesn't really detract from that.

The point he made was that "5 for $25 is in line with what other companies charge".

When you can only name one company that charges near that(and for the record? I think Mantic does the same with their Corporation "Enforcers", but I have not seen the models in person so cannot say), it suggests that the point is invalid.


"More or less" is a critical phrase you've omitted from what he said. Certainly I can't disagree with the general idea that $5-7 for a Terminator sized model feels like decent value whereas $10 starts to feel a bit expensive.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in es
Pulsating Possessed Chaos Marine





 Kanluwen wrote:
So you can name ONE company.

My God, the industry really is so far ahead of Games Workshop in terms of its pricing!


You asked and I delivered. There's your example: five plastic terminator-like models (even if a bit smaller than GW terminators) at 20$.

Also just checked and Puppetswar has sets of five termie-like models, with several weapons and armors configurations, iirc ranging from 28 to 30-something $. Those are in resin.

All of these include their weapons options, unlike FW, who after charging 50$ for 5 termies still asks 18$ more for the weapons, which takes the total to almost 70 bucks for five humanoid models. And some people wonder why recasts are able to offer the same or better product at half the price and still make a profit.

Progress is like a herd of pigs: everybody is interested in the produced benefits, but nobody wants to deal with all the resulting gak.

GW customers deserve every bit of outrageous princing they get. 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Don't forget the pants on head percentage based shipping costs either!

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





 Azreal13 wrote:
Don't forget the pants on head percentage based shipping costs either!



This. God this right here. This alone makes me understand why people throw caution to the wind and buy from recasters. Big price tags i can handle, supply and demand. Lazy ass shipping costs based on percentages is just ludicrous.

 daedalus wrote:

I mean, it's Dakka. I thought snide arguments from emotion were what we did here.


 
   
Made in ca
Enigmatic Chaos Sorcerer





British Columbia

 Haight wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Don't forget the pants on head percentage based shipping costs either!



This. God this right here. This alone makes me understand why people throw caution to the wind and buy from recasters. Big price tags i can handle, supply and demand. Lazy ass shipping costs based on percentages is just ludicrous.

I am really hoping FW becomes available through GW themselves soon. The last two times I've ordered books (IA:13 IA:4) I got hit with their percentage based fee and they shipped it by courier who like to take their own extortionate "brokerage" fee.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/15 23:57:54


 BlaxicanX wrote:
A young business man named Tom Kirby, who was a pupil of mine until he turned greedy, helped the capitalists hunt down and destroy the wargamers. He betrayed and murdered Games Workshop.


 
   
Made in au
Pustulating Plague Priest




I'd also like to mention forge world could take some lessons from the Chinese when it comes to packing items. For what FW charge its a disgrace to just chuck items in a box.

There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.  
   
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Longtime Dakkanaut




 Kojiro wrote:


I suggest looking here.



This might be a bit of topic but when the guy said that he needs to consult the manual for the transformation I remembered Transformers from my childhood and laughed at the idea but then he started flipping all the little bits and panels; quite a bit of engineering went into these.
   
Made in au
Pustulating Plague Priest




Also, the postage route FW packages take is bizarre, england to Australia via Austria or Sweden?

There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.  
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Haight wrote:
Lazy ass shipping costs based on percentages is just ludicrous.


Go over to your local post office sometime and get a price quote for shipping a package to the UK. I think you'll find that FW's "ludicrous" shipping costs are actually quite a bit cheaper than you'd pay.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

But consumer shipping prices are almost always quite a bit more than commercial contracts, that's quite normal.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
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Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





 Peregrine wrote:
 Haight wrote:
Lazy ass shipping costs based on percentages is just ludicrous.


Go over to your local post office sometime and get a price quote for shipping a package to the UK. I think you'll find that FW's "ludicrous" shipping costs are actually quite a bit cheaper than you'd pay.


I ship internationally fairly often due to trading on bartertown, so i'm aware of the pricing.

As my last post said, - i'm okay with big price tags. When i said ludicrous, i wasn't talking about the price ; i was talking about the process of pricing your shipping based on a percentage of purchase. Arbitrary (ludicrous) pricing conventions i'm not okay with. The % based shipping vector is stupid, even if it does make small purchases more palatable. The flat % of purchase drives me nuts. I'd rather they charge actual freight costs + markup for handling and packaging and actually package the items rather than just toss them in a box and cross their fingers.

Also if you're shipping internationally with USPS without at least checking out what other courier services can render, then you're not doing your homework. Depending on destination there are cheaper methods of shipping internationally.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/03/16 00:22:21


 daedalus wrote:

I mean, it's Dakka. I thought snide arguments from emotion were what we did here.


 
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Joyboozer wrote:
Also, the postage route FW packages take is bizarre, england to Australia via Austria or Sweden?


What does that have to do with FW? Once they hand it over to the post office they're done with it, they don't choose the route the package takes. Probably all that's happening is that the company shipping it is using a "hub" model where everything goes through a few central locations and there are few direct routes between countries.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Azreal13 wrote:
But consumer shipping prices are almost always quite a bit more than commercial contracts, that's quite normal.


Sure, but what I'm saying is people seem to expect $5 shipping for a heavy box of models, and that's just not realistic. Paying $15 for shipping on a $100 tank seems pretty reasonable when USPS is demanding $50+ for the same box.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Joyboozer wrote:
I'd also like to mention forge world could take some lessons from the Chinese when it comes to packing items. For what FW charge its a disgrace to just chuck items in a box.


Counter-example: the only recasts I ever bought directly from the recaster were packed with even less care than models from FW, and they were made out of a really brittle resin that ensured lots of damage to delicate detail bits. And the pictures of recasts I've seen on ebay suggest that nothing has changed. Parts are still crammed into FW-style bags with no attempt to prevent them from breaking. Maybe somewhere out there a recaster is doing a good job with packaging, but you're still rolling the dice on getting a decent packing job. And I'm going to put a lot more faith in FW's willingness to replace damaged parts than a recaster who has already demonstrated that they don't care about doing the right thing.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/03/16 00:30:19


There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Yeah, but EBay is the McDonalds of recasting, if you know what you're about, you'd never buy from EBay.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in au
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Adelaide, South Australia

Mario wrote:
t be a bit of topic but when the guy said that he needs to consult the manual for the transformation I remembered Transformers from my childhood and laughed at the idea but then he started flipping all the little bits and panels; quite a bit of engineering went into these.


Well that's kinda what I wanted to add to the discussion. These are another Chinese KO product, significantly cheaper like the FW stuff but issues of quality and resin safety don't exist. And yeah, they're so technically advanced to begin with, that they're improved on really makes it hard to buy an original. Double the price AND it's not as good? That's asking a lot.

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Made in us
Douglas Bader






 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, but EBay is the McDonalds of recasting, if you know what you're about, you'd never buy from EBay.


I'm not just talking about pictures from the recasters themselves, which have obviously mixed quality. I've seen pictures from random people selling recasts they bought, still stuffed into their FW-style plastic bags in a way that would almost guarantee damage with the brittle resin recasters like to use.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in us
Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster





Lincolnton, N.C.

Post redacted. There are somethings you DON'T ask for on Dakka; more information on recasting is one of them. --Janthkin

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 06:20:11


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Made in au
Pustulating Plague Priest




 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, but EBay is the McDonalds of recasting, if you know what you're about, you'd never buy from EBay.

Yes indeedy.
Honestly I used to order a lot from forge world, what stopped me wasn't pricing, it was receiving every order late, damaged and mislabelled.
Chucking stuff in plastic forge world bags, that have small holes in them seemingly for the small parts to fall out, after they've broken off the sprues as there was no padding, despite expensive percentage shipping, sent to the wrong country, smashed about, relabled and finally sent to me.
Or flawless casts, wrapped in a ridiculous amount of bubble wrap, arriving in excellent time, posted for free, and replaced if I'm not happy. Service I'd pay full price for.
Way to gak in your own nest Forge World.

There’s a difference between having a hobby and being a narcissist.  
   
Made in au
Unstoppable Bloodthirster of Khorne





Melbourne .au

 Haight wrote:

As for the "smell", I don't own much resin (see my last seventeen threads in this post as to why ), but none of my resins stink. Did you clean them before working with them ? I own a couple 32 mm figs, and maybe a handful of slightly larger. They are all stored together. I never get any smell at all when i open up the tub, and they are all in various states of assembly / primer / paint. Maybe though its just too small an amount, it's probably 6-7 figs tops.

Also as for the "stink", Epichlorohydrin in HIGH concentrations smells of sour garlic, but in the amounts we're talking about your dog probably couldn't detect it much less the human nose. Isocyanates are odorless even at concentration.

Point on this is the "smell test" is useless with chemicals. Look no further than Carbon Monoxide for an example. Odorless and absolutely lethal.


I'm talking about unbuilt, unassembled resin models stored in (mostly airtight) plastic tubs. Not cleaned/painted/sealed individual models in a figure case.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Joyboozer wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Yeah, but EBay is the McDonalds of recasting, if you know what you're about, you'd never buy from EBay.

Yes indeedy.
Honestly I used to order a lot from forge world, what stopped me wasn't pricing, it was receiving every order late, damaged and mislabelled.
Chucking stuff in plastic forge world bags, that have small holes in them seemingly for the small parts to fall out, after they've broken off the sprues as there was no padding, despite expensive percentage shipping, sent to the wrong country, smashed about, relabled and finally sent to me.
Or flawless casts, wrapped in a ridiculous amount of bubble wrap, arriving in excellent time, posted for free, and replaced if I'm not happy. Service I'd pay full price for.
Way to gak in your own nest Forge World.


Yeah, there's something to be said about contacting them for replacement parts for your badly-packaged replacement parts. No matter the level of CS, at a certain point, I think most of us start to feel awkward and I think many people just let it go rather than keep on asking for intact product. Which is ridiculous when you think about the prices we're paying. Throw Finecast into that same hat as well.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/03/16 06:24:58


   
Made in ca
Longtime Dakkanaut




I dont see anything on ebay. what are you guys talking about?
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
I'm not putting any moral or legal argument forward here, I'm saying that if I was selling an already cheap material, trying to make it go further with another cheap material seems pointless.

At the end of the day, you're free to hold your fears and concerns, whether legitimate or no, but unless someone can put forward a compelling argument for using something toxic in addition to or instead of simple resin, I'm not going to be persuaded they have any basis in fact.


The problem I have with your argument is that it assumes good business practices for people who are engaged in illegal operations. Surely we can agree that the recasters are motivated by profit or else they wouldn't be using the "easy" method of producing miniatures by stealing the designs of another company to sell on the black market. Instead they'd sculpt and develop their own products to sell and get into the miniatures market the "hard" way.

So, if the recasters are motivated by profit, and there is a way to increase that profit by cutting corners in material safety***, why wouldn't they take it? That is my point. You seem so willing to assume that people who are morally loose in their business practices still take customer safety into consideration when choosing the materials they work with. I assume the opposite. Given a chance to squeeze a few more pennies out of a batch of resin, a counterfeiter will do so because they are not accountable to their customers like a traditional business is. Hence we are going in circles. You think it is clearly obvious they wouldn't do something that I see no reason why they wouldn't be doing.


*** This is a major component of the problem regarding the counterfeiters. I came to this thread asking for information regarding which (if any) products could be introduced to resin to extend its use, and no one seemed to have an answer. Perhaps that is good in that there isn't anything that could be added to resin which makes it more dangerous while also extending its use or otherwise making it more profitable. However, just because this small community on Dakka hasn't been able to satisfactorily answer the question does not mean that such a product doesn't exist. So, for me, that is strike one for your argument.

We also have Sigvtar's experience testing resin which did come from a recaster and it demonstrated slightly higher toxicity levels. Again, this could be nothing, or it could be something. There isn't enough information to satisfy my concerns. However, your repeated attempts to assuage my concerns with appeals to good business sense on the part of recasters is comical to me given what little we do know about recasters and given the nature of their business. Strike two.

Finally, there is the well documented cases of major companies in China using materials that were found to be poisonous for the end users. Since the issues above could not be satisfactorily addressed, this becomes strike three for me. Given the cultural business climate in China where even their own citizens distrust the products made there I have no faith in the materials used to make knock off Forge World models.

So, I'll continue to be "scared" and you can continue to buy from the back alley vendors of the internet, and we can go on our merry way. However, this thread did nothing for me other than add to my skepticism about the safety of the counterfeit gaming products coming out of China.


Having participated in a sizable illegal venture(s) from the ages of 16 to 29, I can say that you have a particularly naivë view of motivations for running the business, Even IFF (IFF spelled correctly) the motivation is solely based upon profit.

For one, most materials that are "toxic" for the purposes of casting miniatures would be more expensive than would just buying regular resins.

And for casts minaures, the worst thing you have to worry about is Lead, and all miniatures used to be made out of lead prior to the 1990s, many of which are still floating around eBay.

Not to mention that Lead itself can be more expensive than some of the alloys used for casting, and that any metal that would be more toxic than lead (polonium, for instance) is about 10x to 1,000x the cost of Lead.

But all of this is irrelevant.

Purely from the point of profit substituing toxic materials into something intended for sales over a long period of time (and not a one-off scam, which was the case with the tainted milk) it is MASSIVELY more expensive to work with toxic materials than it is to work with the basic materials.

For one, you need to worry about your workers dying, which means they will needs protective gear.

If you do not provide it, then you are going to rapidly get a reputation of poisoning workers, which will lead to difficulty in finding workers, at best, or having a mob of angry parents or relatives kill you, at worst (as has happened in India, Indonesia, and Malaysia).

Working on a long-term illegal venture is no different than working on an almost legal venture.

And... In the case of recasters...

What they are doing isn't "illegal" where they are doing it. So there, they are running a perfectly legitimate business.

Counterfeiters in the Southern Pacific Rim/East-Asian region do not need to worry overly much about hiding their business from any "officials." The government is well aware, and often encourages this counterfeiting.

The last thing I was involved with was counterfeiting Magic, The Gathering Cards, and we actually had several companies in East Asia competing to help with the effort, claiming we could get tax incentives from the government, grants to employ students, or people on welfare, or low-interest loans for setting up shop in certain communities. And all of them completely understood that they were going to be counterfeiting a game component.

That venture wound up not happening, due to a decision to avoid wandering back into that lifestyle. But it, and other jobs that took me to South and East Asia in the 1980s gave me a rather broad education in the different types of "criminal" enterprises, as well as what is considered a crime, and where.

So, Based upon profit, working with Toxic materials would not be profitable, because:

1) It would be more expensive to use toxic materials.
2) What they are doing is not likely to be a crime where they are doing it. Thus, they are working for a long-term income, and would lose business if they poisoned their customers.


Worrying about this is a paranoia that springs from a romanticized view of criminals as hand-wringing, mustache-twirling bad-guys who are "out to get you."

MB
   
Made in us
Shas'ui with Bonding Knife





Except that there's lots of evidence to suggest otherwise, BeAfraid.

 daedalus wrote:

I mean, it's Dakka. I thought snide arguments from emotion were what we did here.


 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Evidence? I've seen no evidence.

Plenty of speculation about some things that could happen, but evidence would be some sort of health issue directly attributed to a resin recast, some sort of lab report confirming the toxicity (something we have the almost exact opposite of in fact) or some sort of confession from a recaster that they use a toxic product.

What we have is a total absence of evidence and very little clear reason for a motive.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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Ok, if they are copies, how can their detail be better? I can imagine the same, but not better.

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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, if they are copies, how can their detail be better? I can imagine the same, but not better.


If the resin is harder than the FW resin the FW resin might deform post-mould and the knockoff resin might not? Only way I can think of it.

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 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Ok, if they are copies, how can their detail be better? I can imagine the same, but not better.


The detail can't be better than the individual cast they're copying, obviously, but the casting level almost always is (mold alignment, mold ripping, bubbles, warping, material...)

As decent recasters buy their "masters" as soon as FW releases a new kit, there is also a good chance that they'll be of better quality than the casts you get from FW late in a mold's run.

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 Azreal13 wrote:
some sort of lab report confirming the toxicity (something we have the almost exact opposite of in fact) or some sort of confession from a recaster that they use a toxic product.


If you're referring to me, then you're wrong. The lab result never showed any toxicity. It just showed slightly increased toxicity levels compared to the original.

   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Yes, I was referring to you.

When I mentioned we had almost the exact opposite of a report saying the resin was toxic.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

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