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nosferatu1001 wrote:

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LordBlades wrote:

If CAD cost was an 'accepted norm', you wouldn't hear the words 'troop tax' ao often.

the phrase "Troop tax" has existed since the FOC aka CAD was invented. Try again, with facts this time.

The point I am.trying to make is that even if CAD has been the default way of playing the game in 6th edition, it still contains a tax in theform of 2 troops, which you probably don't want to take and likely wouldn't take if you dudn't have to as the troops of most codexes are gak(and the fact that you still hear 'troop tax' thrown around is proof at least some people still see it as such).

Bottom line is everything but Unbound has a tax/opportunity cost/requirement.

Decurion requires you to take units in block amounts and groups. This is a fact.

Whether this is a "tax" or "cost", and if so then to what extent, entirely depends on what a player wants in their army.

Unlike other formations with set unit requirements, there really is no bad option in the formations.

Also, they are not as restrictive as other formations out there, and allow for many variables.

Ultimately then, the supposed "tax" really comes down to a preference of choice.

Rather than being forced to take a bad unit, decurion instead may force you to take good units that you simply do not want.

Now, onto a different point. I still do not understand why people keep saying that assaulting necrons is a good solution.
With the old codex I would have agreed, but new RP rules really should bring an end to the parroting of old ideas.

changemod wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Again, wrong word:

REQUIREMENTS

Those requirements come at a cost. This is the cost you pay to access the benefits. There is only so many ways to restate a simple concept.

I think what you're looking to say here is there's only so many ways so backpedal before you're left with what is at absolute best, a pointless semantic distinction.

Sigh. No, only many ways to restate a point, hoping you understand. I see this is futile.

changemod wrote:

In your quote snipping you have ignored

Nothing, as I dismissed your point as a whole.

Everything, as you cant even refer to a simple concept correctly

changemod wrote:

the term "opportunity cost", look it up, and come back and explain how this opportunity cost you pay isnt actually one.

You still have every one of those opportunities, mate. You just can't claim a free resurrection orb for every model at the same time.

But hey, feel free to keep pretending being unable to have a cake after eating it means you've lost out on cake.

Wow, youre still not understanding this...

If you must take something that costs 54 points minimum, do you still have the choice to spend those 54 points elsewhere, or have you lost that opportunity? Simple question, was it free or did it cost you? If you can answer, "mate", that would help clarify where you are misunderstanding basic concepts.

But hey, feel free to keep inventing an argument then defeating it, its not like thats a fallacy or anything. Good going!

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh. No, only many ways to restate a point, hoping you understand. I see this is futile.

Still going for trying to look smart over substance, huh?

I have no idea why you're even trying when I can see through it so casually.

Everything, as you cant even refer to a simple concept correctly

You're the one who said being required to do something doesn't qualify as a restriction.

Wow, youre still not understanding this...

Complete dismissal =/= lack of comprehension.

If you must take something that costs 54 points minimum, do you still have the choice to spend those 54 points elsewhere, or have you lost that opportunity? Simple question, was it free or did it cost you? If you can answer, "mate", that would help clarify where you are misunderstanding basic concepts.

Are you seriously under the impression this isn't pure semantics under the bluster?

The units within a Decurion cost points. Yes, you cannot spend those points elsewhere without losing the Decurion. No, this does not mean you have paid anything for the Decurion benefits unless you've got dead points floating around in there. There is no actual mechanical downside which comes with the benefits.

The only "Lost opportunity" of note is the choice to play a more personalised list, which is utterly irrelevant to the reasons people have been complaining about the detachment.

But hey, feel free to keep inventing an argument then defeating it, its not like thats a fallacy or anything. Good going!

Are you under the impression this conversation is still going for any reason other than your attitude?

Yes, I thought you were truly failing to understand and were honestly trying to debate, as opposed to what is evident now - a lack of comprehension, AND dishonesty. Your attitude is clear, as well.

Keep going though, its getting quite amusing seeing you flail.

To those who want to debate honestly, it is clear there IS a cost you pay to field a decurion, in the form of fulfilling requirements. The benefit of meeting those requirements is the army wide bonus to RP.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Yes, I thought you were truly failing to understand and were honestly trying to debate, as opposed to what is evident now - a lack of comprehension, AND dishonesty. Your attitude is clear, as well.

Keep going though, its getting quite amusing seeing you flail.

To those who want to debate honestly, it is clear there IS a cost you pay to field a decurion, in the form of fulfilling requirements. The benefit of meeting those requirements is the army wide bonus to RP.

The problem is it's not a cost if you were going to take such units anyways, and considering how good they are they aren't exactly much of a tax, a Tactical Marine is a tax, Warriors are not so much.

But warriors AND immortals AND bikes? And to take nearly anything outside of the RL you are forced to take other units as well - another opportunity cost.

Saying the benefit is "free" is a laughably poor argument. As I pointed out, exactly as poor an argument as the one stating 5th ed PAGK were undercosted, as they had a power weapon that was "worth" 15ppm but they cost 4ppm more than a then tac marine. It fails to take into account that "mandatory" is in itself a cost to be borne

Fact: you *cannot* run a RL under 500 points, but can run a CAD at that points level. Yet apparently there is no "cost" associated with it?

Note: nowehere do I say this is a *fair* cost - I am just pointing out that you cannot honestly say there is "no" cost to the benefit, when it is proven that there is. We can argue about relative merits all day long, but you cannot claim, honestly, that the cost is zero.

Guys, what are you even discussing here at this point? I don't care if you see it as a tax, requirement or a blessing send from the gods above.
All your troops are viable. You are complaining you can't spam only your ubercheese units because of the decurion formations that make nearly anything superfunky? So basically you want this 4+ RP, move through cover and relentless for all your units for free? Telling me that you feel forced to a certain army, because you have to take a variety of units instead the usuall "take three" mentality? Oh boy, where will this end.

I dont know, but it certainly isnt anything like your mis characterisation.

Do you have anything constructive to add?

Edit - to make things clear. I'm not a necron player, although my civil partner soon to be husband IS, I love the concept behind the decurion as it make s refereshing change, but that suggesting there is no "cost" to building the army is one that needs countering - there IS most certainly a cost. As I said above, the only query is whether this cost is high enough given the benefit.

Not really, just need to vent a bit after reading some opinions on the last three pages. Would need to sit down and write an essay to address everything, but based on the statements made it would be a waste of time.
In the end I'm just disappointed, that after all those relatively even balanced codizies in 7th they made something like the crondex.

About that point "I think the codex appropriately represents near unstoppable necron legions walking towards the enemie": I would also like my codex to appropriately represent the propaganda inside it...

rhavien wrote:
Not really, just need to vent a bit after reading some opinions on the last three pages. Would need to sit down and write an essay to address everything, but based on the statements made it would be a waste of time.
In the end I'm just disappointed, that after all those relatively even balanced codizies in 7th they made something like the crondex.

About that point "I think the codex appropriately represents near unstoppable necron legions walking towards the enemie": I would also like my codex to appropriately represent the propaganda inside it...

Honestly, I do feel bad, but not quite in the way I should. I feel bad because the crondex is the pinnacle of balanced rules for a codex, and I feel bad that not every other codex represents that. (Dark Eldar, for example)


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But, I don't know if it deserves the hate towards it simply for being fluffy and balanced.

It's super balanced, I dunno what peoples problem is. Also, taking 2 Warriors Squads , 1 Immortal, and 1 Tomb Blade.

To me that's not a tax, their really amazing units over all and I've never had issue because their so good.

 Big Blind Bill wrote:
Now, onto a different point. I still do not understand why people keep saying that assaulting necrons is a good solution.
With the old codex I would have agreed, but new RP rules really should bring an end to the parroting of old ideas.

It's a bit of a trap, you can't push a general-purpose assault unit into a blob of Warriors. You need either enough force concentration and leadership debuffs to win convincingly, or you need to take advantage of their low damage output. 10 Warriors will kill about ~1 Scout per turn. That's not scary, but a handful of Warriors can tarpit a 240pt Wraithknight for the entire game. So be careful what you choose to assault into them.

Incidentally any kind of buff that reduces incoming damage does a lot to even the playing field. 5x Wraiths on the charge kill ~2 Tacs with a 4+ FNP from Endurance. It would take them about 6 Assault phases total to chew through an entire 4+++ Tac Squad. So it looks like layering up your own saves helps immensely.

I like how this argument basically boils down to a millionaire pissed he has to pay a thousand dollar tax on a million dollar inheritance.

If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

Because the Tournament Scene honestly isn't even playing the same game as everyone else.

It's not a skill issue, more a list building philosophy that results in fine tuned power builds such as five flying tyrant lists that look completely different to how armies are generally built.

The thing about the Decurion though, is it's something of a power build before trying to even casually optimise. And it's right there front and center in the codex being sold as the "main" way to build this particular army, with a detachment benefit that's both instantly obviously an amazingly good buff and something of a discouragement to just run a CAD.

And so people have been easily sleepwalking their way through their local metas since the codex was released.

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

How old is the new dex? How many tourneys it could have win? But it could have possibly gone back in time to win some past tournaments. Wouldnt doubt that.

changemod wrote:

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

Because the Tournament Scene honestly isn't even playing the same game as everyone else.

It's not a skill issue, more a list building philosophy that results in fine tuned power builds such as five flying tyrant lists that look completely different to how armies are generally built.

The thing about the Decurion though, is it's something of a power build before trying to even casually optimise. And it's right there front and center in the codex being sold as the "main" way to build this particular army, with a detachment benefit that's both instantly obviously an amazingly good buff and something of a discouragement to just run a CAD.

And so people have been easily sleepwalking their way through their local metas since the codex was released.

Most tournaments play a specific kind of missions. As a result, most people layers optimize their list for that specific format. While they are doubtless excellent lists, in a local meta tha doesn't use tornament missions, they might not do so hot.

For example, the whole MSU idea is kinda wasted on a local meta that plays pure Eternal War, or just pure Killpoints.

On.the.other hand, netlisting is a thing. Some power 'cores' of tournament lists will still.dominate local metas. I'm pretty sure 5 Flyrant spam would walk over most mon-tournamentlists.

Slightly unrelated (but I did learn this trick from LVO), hiw good would a Lynx on a landing pad be at countering the Decurion?

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

If the ork codex, sisters and IG codex are so well made and balanced why after being out so long did only one ork army and zero sisters and IG even place top thirty two at adepticon while necrons had four showings?

There was exactly one AS primary out of 183 competitors, probably explains that. Out of 7 Ork primaries, one went to top 32. A lone MT primary(!) actually placed higher than every single Guard primary. IG has poor mobility and in addition Forge World was disallowed, so I'm guessing those both hurt quite a bit in terms of VPs. Meanwhile Necrons resist being tabled, have a lot of fast units and can sit on Tactical Objectives and endure fire. So it's not surprising they did well.

A Skyshield/Lynx costs 495 points. It has some utility as a support unit to kill Monoliths and other pricey mech, but it's not an answer to core Decurion formations or auxiliaries like Canoptek/Destroyer Cult.

Yoyoyo wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Why do necron players insist that some magical counter exists for everything? You're giving GW's game designers too much credit.

lustigjh wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

lustigjh wrote:
I think you're severely underestimating Wraiths. I had a 20 cultist blob with Dark Apostle get mulched in two turns (something like 17 died in round 1 so the Wraiths got to stay locked during my shooting phase). I even tried to get the charge but unfortunately beasts are much more likely to be getting charges than massed infantry.

Not getting the charge is going to hurt, that's another tactical problem. As for their damage potential, you want to stay away from throwing a 100pt unit into combat with them, only 3-5pt bodies. They need to kill 43x 5pt models to make their points back. Obviously getting something like Invisibility or Mental Fortitude into them would help a lot, so keep looking for solutions. They will be out there.

Why do necron players insist that some magical counter exists for everything? You're giving GW's game designers too much credit.

And how is some 5PT bodies going to make it into melee? Most have 5+ average and they'll die out in droves to their shots before ever making it into melee with them.

So far i have only won 2/5 games with Decurion. My opponents field heavy competitive lists with combined arms. They mostly win on objective secured...


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 Orock wrote:

Davor wrote:
If the Decurion is so powerful how come it hasn't won a tournament yet? From what people are saying it's auto won, it should have won the majors already.

If the ork codex, sisters and IG codex are so well made and balanced why after being out so long did only one ork army and zero sisters and IG even place top thirty two at adepticon while necrons had four showings?

Ever since the ork dex came out. I have won a single game with orks... Against a non competitive daemon list. All the other games were giant rapes.. even while using tournament lists... Orks have been killed. hard!

Sisters.lol... surprised they even left that players shelf..

IG seems quite allright though.. not that mobile... but the range to compensate for it.

 Waaghboss Grobnub wrote:
So far i have only won 2/5 games with Decurion. My opponents field heavy competitive lists with combined arms. They mostly win on objective secured...

Yeah, Obj sec can play a huge part in countering a Decurion. Though all my friends think it doesn't matter, I tid a game against my AM buddy mainly because he had a ton of Obj Sec units.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And how is some 5PT bodies going to make it into melee? Most have 5+ average and they'll die out in droves to their shots before ever making it into melee with them.

Wraiths don't have ranged weapons. Screening units exist to protect your firebase, not supply offence, so you should not be running into the enemy's guns. But to answer your question: Endurance, Invisibility, Forewarning, Fire Shield, Blind tests (Executioner Pask can do this), extra movement from Orders, Go to Ground in cover, hiding behind tanking units like Bullgryns, synergy with Battle Brothers, etc. I don't know man, it's a new meta. Get creative.

Lots of people are still trying to counter Necrons through high-quality firepower since it works well against other armies. Driving a 210pt 3HP tank straight into a wall of Gauss doesn't seem too bright to me, but people love Punisher Pask. Firing 10-15pt special weapons at 13pt Warriors which get a 50/50 save, or at 22pt Tomb Blades which get a 75/25 save, is not too bright either but people love Plasma/Melta Vets. People want to kill things and table opponents. Necrons however resist damage and if you can only shoot, you have nothing available to blunt Necron offence to last through 7 turns of the game.

It's like the art of war, if you don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the opponents army and your own (and apply that knowledge intelligently), don't expect to win too many battles.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And how is some 5PT bodies going to make it into melee? Most have 5+ average and they'll die out in droves to their shots before ever making it into melee with them.

Wraiths don't have ranged weapons. Screening units exist to protect your firebase, not supply offence, so you should not be running into the enemy's guns. But to answer your question: Endurance, Invisibility, Forewarning, Fire Shield, Blind tests (Executioner Pask can do this), extra movement from Orders, Go to Ground in cover, hiding behind tanking units like Bullgryns, synergy with Battle Brothers, etc. I don't know man, it's a new meta. Get creative.

Lots of people are still trying to counter Necrons through high-quality firepower since it works well against other armies. Driving a 210pt 3HP tank straight into a wall of Gauss doesn't seem too bright to me, but people love Punisher Pask. Firing 10-15pt special weapons at 13pt Warriors which get a 50/50 save, or at 22pt Tomb Blades which get a 75/25 save, is not too bright either but people love Plasma/Melta Vets. People want to kill things and table opponents. Necrons however resist damage and if you can only shoot, you have nothing available to blunt Necron offence to last through 7 turns of the game.

It's like the art of war, if you don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the opponents army and your own (and apply that knowledge intelligently), don't expect to win too many battles.

Considering the only units of that type I have are cultists in a CSM army, it's not exactly helpful to say the least.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
And how is some 5PT bodies going to make it into melee? Most have 5+ average and they'll die out in droves to their shots before ever making it into melee with them.

Wraiths don't have ranged weapons. Screening units exist to protect your firebase, not supply offence, so you should not be running into the enemy's guns. But to answer your question: Endurance, Invisibility, Forewarning, Fire Shield, Blind tests (Executioner Pask can do this), extra movement from Orders, Go to Ground in cover, hiding behind tanking units like Bullgryns, synergy with Battle Brothers, etc. I don't know man, it's a new meta. Get creative.

Lots of people are still trying to counter Necrons through high-quality firepower since it works well against other armies. Driving a 210pt 3HP tank straight into a wall of Gauss doesn't seem too bright to me, but people love Punisher Pask. Firing 10-15pt special weapons at 13pt Warriors which get a 50/50 save, or at 22pt Tomb Blades which get a 75/25 save, is not too bright either but people love Plasma/Melta Vets. People want to kill things and table opponents. Necrons however resist damage and if you can only shoot, you have nothing available to blunt Necron offence to last through 7 turns of the game.

It's like the art of war, if you don't know the strengths and weaknesses of the opponents army and your own (and apply that knowledge intelligently), don't expect to win too many battles.

Wraiths DO have range weapons occasionally. If in the formation, I always use the Beamers for some serious anti-everything.

Very unhelpful of me

I'll take a look at CSM. Basic principle is layer up your own saves, or force debuffs on Necron units. They can't be killed easily so you need to find ways to slow them down.

About the range -- good point. Gotta consider that

Everyone is making out that the Decurion is the bestest but seriously the Decurion is one of the most balanced ways to play the army.

You're not gonna face 18 Wraith with it, etc.. etc..

It's very balanced, but also very strong.

The Decurion's offense is not devastating, and so there is still plenty of ability for the opponent to play their game. Things start going wrong if there is a lot of obj sec on the table. Now my lists have zero obj sec at the moment, but I'm taking that chance with my eyes open.