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I can tell you bringing warptalons, especially with a mark, is a big waste of points, as are possesed. She needs Heldrakes, maulerfiends, and a demon prince. Or if she wants to use Nurgle, then Typhus is a must. For cheap objective grabbers cultists are great. The CSMs are wasted points with bolters and CCWs. Putting the Lord on a bike will help, and give them meltas. I must say, her list was pretty gak. Help her make a list and throw it on the Army List page. Maybe even switch ro Khorne Daemonkin, of she likes CC and wants to tear up your crons. But I will give you props for trying to tone down your lists, and not use the really cheesey things.

OP:

...do people still complain about Necrons? I just recently started playing a few games after a little break and being away from the 40k scene. I played a game this weekend using a relatively strong list (I made sure to tell my friend beforehand that I was using my Judicator Cult list, as I felt like bringing Destroyers, but wanted to let him know it was a strong list). He used his Tau, with Missilesides, a Riptide, bunch of Crisis suits with Shadowsun and a Commander, bunch of Fire Warriors, and some Stealth suits. He gave me a little scare in the beginning, but I ended up tabling him around turn 4 with about 70% of my Army still alive (That's better than other armies have faired against that list, surprisingly).

Then another friend proceeded to talk about "Well duh, you used Necrons. And Destroyers at that..." and then both friends talked about how my Tau friend should've brought more "cheese" to combat my "cheese", because it was justified. My question for you guys is, are Necrons really that bad anymore? I thought people would get over them, now that Eldar, Space Marines, and Dark Angels are all out. Necrons shouldn't be all that. What do you guys think? Are people still complaining about Necrons in your gaming groups? Is the Decurion still considered cheese? Half the reason I took a little break was to wait for more codexes to come out so I wouldn't be branded "that guy", but I dunno....

Not much complaining goes on around here honestly, more about GW directly. We're a veteran group been around since 3rd so we remember the BA cheese to the cron relentless infantry cheese, stealer shock cheese and so on, basically all the various chedders. That said it is accepted that necrons/eldar/SM/DA sit a tier higher than the rest right now. Its cyclical. Allies changes things a little but then your really just adding one of those 'parent codexes' . I think some of the bitterness is due to decurion voltron formations which really are a different game to what non decurion dexes can muster. Although honestly tau are right there in the ballpark too and judicator is definitely NOT the high end of what crons can do so its not like their 'sh*t don't stink' to dip into Ebonics a bit.
Sucks to have people complain about your army. Otoh it does suck to fight an uphill battle which is what it is for some (not tau IMO). I'd just try and and accept it graciously since crons are still towards the top of the pile.

One of the biggest problems the OP is having is he is playing a top tier army against a bottom(very bottom) tier army. Playing against one of the other top tier lists would be a different story.

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
I can tell you bringing warptalons, especially with a mark, is a big waste of points, as are possesed. She needs Heldrakes, maulerfiends, and a demon prince. Or if she wants to use Nurgle, then Typhus is a must. For cheap objective grabbers cultists are great. The CSMs are wasted points with bolters and CCWs. Putting the Lord on a bike will help, and give them meltas. I must say, her list was pretty gak. Help her make a list and throw it on the Army List page. Maybe even switch ro Khorne Daemonkin, of she likes CC and wants to tear up your crons. But I will give you props for trying to tone down your lists, and not use the really cheesey things.

She uses a Daemon Prince, Lord on a bike, Cultists, and Typhus on a regular basis. But, she also likes to try new things. Lately she's even been branching out from Nurgle. But her Warp Talons actually did pretty well. They blinded Trazyn's unit and a unit of 15 warriors when they deep struck, then proceeded to kill my T-Ctan.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Frozocrone wrote:
Does she not have Helldrakes? Would be amazing against Necrons, denying saves left right and centre.

She has tried to avoid them like the plague (ironically), but last night she said she was gonna try proxying 2 in her next list. At this point, she should try anything.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Yeah, if my OP army made someone quit the game because I couldn't figure out out to make it waeker I would feel bad too. I don't mean this to insult you, mearly that your army is so strong that you are having trouble making a list that she can compete with. I have very little knowlege about the internal balance of necrons, as I do not play them and they are not very common in my local meta. Perhaps drop the RP boosting cryptek and take a monolith? I understand many people think they are poor for thier cost. Perhaps help her build a better list, if you are more experienced. Of course, if it is just down to bad rolling you can't help that. What was her list?

Her list was a Chaos Lord with Sigil, Black Mace, blight grenades. 6 Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma guns and a Rhino, 4x 5 man CSM squads with Mark of Nurgle, CCWs and a Plasma gun each, 8 Possessed with Mark of Khorne, 5 Warp Talons with the Mark of Khorne, and 2 Nurgle Biker squads with 2 Plasma guns each.

And I've used the monolith against her, and she also hates it. I've usually done rather well with the Monolith, especially since it hurts her Rhinos easily and destroys her infantry.

No offense, but her list is honestly REALLY bad. Plague Marines outperform Vanillas, which will be an issue. Make those Plagues as well.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Lord Blackscale wrote:
Yeah, if my OP army made someone quit the game because I couldn't figure out out to make it waeker I would feel bad too. I don't mean this to insult you, mearly that your army is so strong that you are having trouble making a list that she can compete with. I have very little knowlege about the internal balance of necrons, as I do not play them and they are not very common in my local meta. Perhaps drop the RP boosting cryptek and take a monolith? I understand many people think they are poor for thier cost. Perhaps help her build a better list, if you are more experienced. Of course, if it is just down to bad rolling you can't help that. What was her list?

Her list was a Chaos Lord with Sigil, Black Mace, blight grenades. 6 Plague Marines w/ 2 Plasma guns and a Rhino, 4x 5 man CSM squads with Mark of Nurgle, CCWs and a Plasma gun each, 8 Possessed with Mark of Khorne, 5 Warp Talons with the Mark of Khorne, and 2 Nurgle Biker squads with 2 Plasma guns each.

And I've used the monolith against her, and she also hates it. I've usually done rather well with the Monolith, especially since it hurts her Rhinos easily and destroys her infantry.

No offense, but her list is honestly REALLY bad. Plague Marines outperform Vanillas, which will be an issue. Make those Plagues as well.

Its a filthy casual list

I dont think Necrons can make anything more casual before having to just go at skewed points.

 Desubot wrote:


I dont think Necrons can make anything more casual before having to just go at skewed points.

I might have to try that, sadly.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


I dont think Necrons can make anything more casual before having to just go at skewed points.

I might have to try that, sadly.

Ether That or make a VERY boring list involving nothing but warriors marching forward

OR start playing campaigns or other types of missions.

 Desubot wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Desubot wrote:


I dont think Necrons can make anything more casual before having to just go at skewed points.

I might have to try that, sadly.

Ether That or make a VERY boring list involving nothing but warriors marching forward

OR start playing campaigns or other types of missions.

Yeah, but warrior blobs are actually really strong, so....

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yeah, but warrior blobs are actually really strong, so....

I find them very tough, but pretty awful when it comes to actually doing damage.

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Yeah, but warrior blobs are actually really strong, so....

I find them very tough, but pretty awful when it comes to actually doing damage.

That's the opposite of my experience. They usually damage whatever they shoot at. But, then again, I usually shoot like, 15-20 of them within rapid-fire range, so yeah.

I'm starting to think 40k is very much LESS about strategy and MORE about OP unit spam. When I play 40k lately I don't feel any reward for nifty maneuvers or epic outflanking moves. Just get shot up while my opponent re-rolls 3++.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

But against Necrons, even if I catch you in a mistake, you just don't die, and next turn's the same, and I've been denied that reward. I may eventually chip away at you and win, but it doesn't *feel* that way. Even if I win, I don't feel like I've beaten your smarts - I only feel like I've beaten your dice rolls. If you beat me, I don't feel like your smarts beat me, only your dice rolls.

That's a very interesting way to look at it, I've never really thought of that. There actually has been a few times where I've had to buckle down and think strategically to win, but you're right. Most of the time, regardless of the list I play, I just walk at you, don't die, and shoot you off the board. 8/10 times that's the game. And the very few times I've lost, I had pretty bad dice rolls. So yeah, I didn't think about it that way. Hmm....

 womprat49 wrote:
I'm starting to think 40k is very much LESS about strategy and MORE about OP unit spam. When I play 40k lately I don't feel any reward for nifty maneuvers or epic outflanking moves. Just get shot up while my opponent re-rolls 3++.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

But against Necrons, even if I catch you in a mistake, you just don't die, and next turn's the same, and I've been denied that reward. I may eventually chip away at you and win, but it doesn't *feel* that way. Even if I win, I don't feel like I've beaten your smarts - I only feel like I've beaten your dice rolls. If you beat me, I don't feel like your smarts beat me, only your dice rolls.

That's a very interesting way to look at it, I've never really thought of that. There actually has been a few times where I've had to buckle down and think strategically to win, but you're right. Most of the time, regardless of the list I play, I just walk at you, don't die, and shoot you off the board. 8/10 times that's the game. And the very few times I've lost, I had pretty bad dice rolls. So yeah, I didn't think about it that way. Hmm....

Its never been about the tactics or the strategeries

Its ALL about the collection of models and legitimately making pew pew noises. (aka its supposed to be played like DnD) and im being serious about this.

 womprat49 wrote:
I'm starting to think 40k is very much LESS about strategy and MORE about OP unit spam. When I play 40k lately I don't feel any reward for nifty maneuvers or epic outflanking moves. Just get shot up while my opponent re-rolls 3++.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Yarium wrote:

But against Necrons, even if I catch you in a mistake, you just don't die, and next turn's the same, and I've been denied that reward. I may eventually chip away at you and win, but it doesn't *feel* that way. Even if I win, I don't feel like I've beaten your smarts - I only feel like I've beaten your dice rolls. If you beat me, I don't feel like your smarts beat me, only your dice rolls.

That's a very interesting way to look at it, I've never really thought of that. There actually has been a few times where I've had to buckle down and think strategically to win, but you're right. Most of the time, regardless of the list I play, I just walk at you, don't die, and shoot you off the board. 8/10 times that's the game. And the very few times I've lost, I had pretty bad dice rolls. So yeah, I didn't think about it that way. Hmm....

I dunno, honestly. I chose Nids as my second army because I wanted to prove a point (and for other reasons, obviously). I play a single Hive Tyrant, Warriors, 2 full units of gaunts (one of which is Hormagaunts), Hive guard, a Tyranid Prime, a Trygon Prime, and an assortment of a ton of other units. I've even used Deathleaper, full squad of Rippers with Spinefists, and Genestealers against my buddies Guard (he typically brings a good mix of tanks and infantry, and he's a decent player) and I ended up tabling him in the end. Nids make me think tactically, and I've had to do some fancy stuff here and there to win games. But that's the thing, I win most games I play with my Nids (Yeah, not in a super competitive meta, but with a lot of good players and decent lists). And those wins are actually rewarding. Like, I feel good when I do well with Nids.

My Necrons have become, I dunno....

I love them to death, but it's taking a toll on me when people don't enjoy playing them, and when I literally only have to walk forward.

 womprat49 wrote:
I'm starting to think 40k is very much LESS about strategy and MORE about OP unit spam. When I play 40k lately I don't feel any reward for nifty maneuvers or epic outflanking moves. Just get shot up while my opponent re-rolls 3++.

Technically 40k is all strategy and no tactics. All that matters is who you send to the fight, not what they do during the fight.

This has always been the case. GW's marketing strategy works like this: I just lost a game with my army, so I'm going to buy this cool new model and add it to my army. Then I will win next time.

Then GW will eventually nerf that game-winning model you just bought, not in response to player complaints or some feeble attempt at "balance" but simply to force you to buy another model.

It's a scam, sure. But look at things like card games or that mageknight thing that was popular in the early 00s (do people still play that?) You have to just buy a grab bag of random units/powers/things without any knowledge of what you're getting. Your ability to play depends either on shameless proxying or simple luck of the draw.

destrucifier wrote:

 womprat49 wrote:
I'm starting to think 40k is very much LESS about strategy and MORE about OP unit spam. When I play 40k lately I don't feel any reward for nifty maneuvers or epic outflanking moves. Just get shot up while my opponent re-rolls 3++.

Technically 40k is all strategy and no tactics. All that matters is who you send to the fight, not what they do during the fight.

This has always been the case. GW's marketing strategy works like this: I just lost a game with my army, so I'm going to buy this cool new model and add it to my army. Then I will win next time.

Then GW will eventually nerf that game-winning model you just bought, not in response to player complaints or some feeble attempt at "balance" but simply to force you to buy another model.

It's a scam, sure. But look at things like card games or that mageknight thing that was popular in the early 00s (do people still play that?) You have to just buy a grab bag of random units/powers/things without any knowledge of what you're getting. Your ability to play depends either on shameless proxying or simple luck of the draw.

Rip Annihilation Barges.

 krodarklorr wrote:

That's the opposite of my experience. They usually damage whatever they shoot at. But, then again, I usually shoot like, 15-20 of them within rapid-fire range, so yeah.

Really?

Even when rapid firing a large squad, I find that their shots just plink off most things.

non-jinking vehicles are an obvious exception, but I find most can easily stay out of rapid fire range.

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

That's the opposite of my experience. They usually damage whatever they shoot at. But, then again, I usually shoot like, 15-20 of them within rapid-fire range, so yeah.

Really?

Even when rapid firing a large squad, I find that their shots just plink off most things.

non-jinking vehicles are an obvious exception, but I find most can easily stay out of rapid fire range.

Eh, two days ago my girlfriend lost a squad of 3 Nurgle Bikers to 15 warriors not rapid-firing. And anything T3 they shred through.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

That's the opposite of my experience. They usually damage whatever they shoot at. But, then again, I usually shoot like, 15-20 of them within rapid-fire range, so yeah.

Really?

Even when rapid firing a large squad, I find that their shots just plink off most things.

non-jinking vehicles are an obvious exception, but I find most can easily stay out of rapid fire range.

Eh, two days ago my girlfriend lost a squad of 3 Nurgle Bikers to 15 warriors not rapid-firing. And anything T3 they shred through.

Her list was really bad though as you listed. Nurgle Marines are essentially a ridiculously inferior Plague Marine.

Plus Warp Talons aren't exactly good.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

That's the opposite of my experience. They usually damage whatever they shoot at. But, then again, I usually shoot like, 15-20 of them within rapid-fire range, so yeah.

Really?

Even when rapid firing a large squad, I find that their shots just plink off most things.

non-jinking vehicles are an obvious exception, but I find most can easily stay out of rapid fire range.

Eh, two days ago my girlfriend lost a squad of 3 Nurgle Bikers to 15 warriors not rapid-firing. And anything T3 they shred through.

Her list was really bad though as you listed. Nurgle Marines are essentially a ridiculously inferior Plague Marine.

Plus Warp Talons aren't exactly good.

Well, I never said they were. They're still usable in casual lists, though.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

That's the opposite of my experience. They usually damage whatever they shoot at. But, then again, I usually shoot like, 15-20 of them within rapid-fire range, so yeah.

Really?

Even when rapid firing a large squad, I find that their shots just plink off most things.

non-jinking vehicles are an obvious exception, but I find most can easily stay out of rapid fire range.

Eh, two days ago my girlfriend lost a squad of 3 Nurgle Bikers to 15 warriors not rapid-firing. And anything T3 they shred through.

Her list was really bad though as you listed. Nurgle Marines are essentially a ridiculously inferior Plague Marine.

Plus Warp Talons aren't exactly good.

Well, I never said they were. They're still usable in casual lists, though.

Warptalons I've found really only come into their own when you bring along a healthy does of Daemons and their typical supports. (ie: Grimoire)

Add in some Divination or Santic augments, and/or Cursed Earth and they becomes filthy good. Biomancy is safer, but not nearly as spectacular in what it can achieve when compared to Santic.

Experiment 626 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

That's the opposite of my experience. They usually damage whatever they shoot at. But, then again, I usually shoot like, 15-20 of them within rapid-fire range, so yeah.

Really?

Even when rapid firing a large squad, I find that their shots just plink off most things.

non-jinking vehicles are an obvious exception, but I find most can easily stay out of rapid fire range.

Eh, two days ago my girlfriend lost a squad of 3 Nurgle Bikers to 15 warriors not rapid-firing. And anything T3 they shred through.

Her list was really bad though as you listed. Nurgle Marines are essentially a ridiculously inferior Plague Marine.

Plus Warp Talons aren't exactly good.

Well, I never said they were. They're still usable in casual lists, though.

Warptalons I've found really only come into their own when you bring along a healthy does of Daemons and their typical supports. (ie: Grimoire)

Add in some Divination or Santic augments, and/or Cursed Earth and they becomes filthy good. Biomancy is safer, but not nearly as spectacular in what it can achieve when compared to Santic.

Yeah, I really need to get her to try out Daemon allies. Tzeentch Warp Talons with a 2++ is pretty stupid.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Experiment 626 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

That's the opposite of my experience. They usually damage whatever they shoot at. But, then again, I usually shoot like, 15-20 of them within rapid-fire range, so yeah.

Really?

Even when rapid firing a large squad, I find that their shots just plink off most things.

non-jinking vehicles are an obvious exception, but I find most can easily stay out of rapid fire range.

Eh, two days ago my girlfriend lost a squad of 3 Nurgle Bikers to 15 warriors not rapid-firing. And anything T3 they shred through.

Her list was really bad though as you listed. Nurgle Marines are essentially a ridiculously inferior Plague Marine.

Plus Warp Talons aren't exactly good.

Well, I never said they were. They're still usable in casual lists, though.

Warptalons I've found really only come into their own when you bring along a healthy does of Daemons and their typical supports. (ie: Grimoire)

Add in some Divination or Santic augments, and/or Cursed Earth and they becomes filthy good. Biomancy is safer, but not nearly as spectacular in what it can achieve when compared to Santic.

Yeah, I really need to get her to try out Daemon allies. Tzeentch Warp Talons with a 2++ is pretty stupid.

But THEN you ask why you didn't pour those same resources into a different Daemon unit...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

But THEN you ask why you didn't pour those same resources into a different Daemon unit...

I guess.

So, I am happily surprised.

I tried using a Mephrit supplement this past weekend. I used Zarathusa's Decurion formation thing, and a Conclave of the Burning one with the Nightbringer.

My girlfriend was my opponent, and used her normal Chaos. But, she proxied a few things. She used a Forgefiend with 3 Ecoplasm Cannons, 2 Baleflamer Heldrakes, 3 units of Khorne Cultists (yeah, I had the same reaction), 2 units of Plague Marines in Rhinos, A Nurgle Sorcerer with Iron Arm and a Nurgle Chaos Lord in a unit of Nurgle Oblits.

It was kill points, Hammer and Anvil, she deployed first and went first. Her cultists were in reserves, Oblits were deep striking, and she moved her Forgefiend up to shoot at my wraiths, wounding one of them. From there on, my Conclave ran up the board, as did my Wraiths, and everything else simply walked forward.

Turn 2, Everything came in except 1 units of cultists, and her Oblits scattered in my deployment zone to the point where they were pretty much out of the game save for a few shooting phases. Her plague marines and rhinos shot and ended up killing a single wraith from each unit and wounding another one. Her Heldrakes also contributed to that. My Deathmarks and Doom Scythe failed to come in, as per the usual. My Wraiths made it into combat with her Rhinos, killing 1 for First Blood, and immobilizing the second with 1 Hull point left.

Then, to sum up the rest of the game, Cultists and Plague Marines killed all the remaining Wraiths in one turn of shooting, Heldrakes munched most of my Overlord's unit of Immortals, Oblits destroyed most of my Warrior blob, Praetorians also died to Cultist and Plague Marine shooting, Deathmarks mis happed and died. Doom Scythe did very little, but once the Ctan got to her side, he (after being blinded) killed most of her plague marines and Gazed a ton of cultists.

All in all, it was a very fun game. My girlfriend even enjoyed herself quite a bit, and for over half the game, we were tied, and she even took the lead for awhile. Sadly, the game continued after turn 5 and I ended up pulling ahead with kill points, but nonetheless, very fun.

The Mephrit formations really helped toning down my Necrons, and next time I think I'll just stick with the regular detachment and see how that goes.

I just really felt like sharing this with you guys, sorry it was a lot. I was just rather impressed, and I feel like I can still play my Necrons while having fun and being fluffy.