New casting process/material (UniCast) from Prodos

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Sining**

Well, I would like it if Mantic used more of the unicast system for their miniatures

**Warzone Resurrection**

Hi there, thanks for this topic.

A bit shame that it has drifted away from UniCast but I am more than happy to clarify couple points.

1. KS AvP - a lot explained to backers already, we are simply no 1 in eyes of 3rd party, due to revenue it may generate. So I assume if we where to make a video game, that would sold in 10s of millions copies we would have someone working with us 30h a week, as we are not even in small % of that we are lucky if someone look at us once a month, thus it takes a lot of time to get even a simple answer via email, not to mention if someone look at it and say : this needs changing, lets start over again.
If you remember we had a prototype sent out for approval in September 2014, the game was approved to production in July 2015, with no changed needed to original prototype.
Personally I am not surprised that no major manufacturer wanted this licence, it seems they simply had more knowledge how the process is constructed (approval and so on) and passed on it.

2. UniCast is unique due to 2 factors, a) models quality b) production capacity c) low cost. UniCast it's resin quality level with HIPS manufacturing cycle time and cost of PVC - no other manufacturer is able to do this, thus it's a bit revolution.

3. Prodos supported many KS, the list is very long. We are currently working with 4 customers that have made their Kickstarters and no one want to manufacture their miniatures due to several reasons (bad 3d design or complexity), we fix all the problems and really in some cases we are like Get Out of Jail Free card for them.
As for future of not-prodos projects, we are asking our customers to not disclosure who is the manufacturer, a) due to our reputation with AvP KS - that's obvious , b) we have enough work for next year and beyond.
Currently UniCast will be pouring out 1.4 million miniatures in next 8 months, not including new AvP or SC we are working on.

Here is a statement from one of our manufacturing service: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wadedyer/fragged-empire-rpg-protagonist-archive-and-miniatu/posts/1557755

4. AvP2, it wont be a KS. AvP:THB is a hobby product, meaning that many store chains are not interested in this product (toys R us or Argos for instance ), however, as there is a need for a classic board game in AvP settings (by classic i mean no need of models assembly with simplicity of zombicide ), we will make one using unicast.

5. The last one is about Warzone and the point that we've redesigned miniatures - this comes down to cost of manufacturing, old designs where 3 times more expensive to manufacture that current version and we have been selling the old design to retail for almost no profit... thus, we had 2 options to choose from : a) kill the project b) redesign the miniatures and make them less costly to manufacture, however, many of the KS WZR fans did not appreciate our decision, well maybe in years to come the KS version will gain more in value...

Thanks, to clarify, English is not my 1st language, it's my 3rd, and my intention was not to offend anyone with this post, thanks.

**overtyrant**

I'm very much looking forward to seeing what you can accomplishe with Unicast and hope more manufacturers go down this route.

**Joyboozer**

Hi Warzone
There's a really easy way to get me back onside as an AvP backer. Communication. You suck at it.
I don't care if you're late, I care that I have no idea what's going on, you say stuff will be sent by a date, then nothing. Regular updates on what's going on, regular communication, not a post every month saying "end of this month for sure".
This late and a lot of us don't have wave 1. I get what happened with the delay, I don't get why it's still a problem, especially when you seem to have organised a shipping partner in Australia at least, and hopefully other countries (retailers do have stock).
The reason AvP has hurt your reputation is that it's showed you fall apart in a crisis. I have supported and defended many late kickstarters. The ones I criticise are the ones that give me no information, bad information or ignore me altogether.
Those Youngblood predators look awesome, too bad I didn't see them in a Kickstarter update.
You're obviously capable of doing some amazing product, for the love of god pull you're finger out on the service side. Are you really completely unaware of all the unanswered messages? It's posted everywhere.

**Zywus**

Warzone Resurrection wrote:
2. UniCast is unique due to 2 factors, a) models quality b) production capacity c) low cost. UniCast it's resin quality level with HIPS manufacturing cycle time and cost of PVC - no other manufacturer is able to do this, thus it's a bit revolution.

Have you considered filing a patent for the unicast manufacturing process.

That would allow you to pull in licensing money by allowing others to make use of the tecnique in their manufacturing.

**OrlandotheTechnicoloured**

the Load boardgame on KS at the moment is going to be using this

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1584625

**CptJake**

OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
the Load boardgame on KS at the moment is going to be using this

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1584625

Not just using the process, but they own it, from your link:

Archon is owner of manufactory process known as Unicast.

Sounds like Jarek and crew are playing CYA with their assets.

**Dark Severance**

CptJake wrote:
Sounds like Jarek and crew are playing CYA with their assets.

No, this side of the business has always existed and been separate entity. If you dig into the AvP thread again you'll see a few times where it has come up.

Archon has always existed although I thought it was a different name (might have been Archon, couldn't remember). This was miniature casting, sculpting, 3d printing side of Prodos. It was always separate and even brought up at some point when Prodos discussed cash flow issues 1-2 years back (can't remember when). One of the options was for Prodos to declare bankruptcy or dissolve, something along those lines but focus on their manufacturing. This is one of the reasons that side of the business has been handled differently.

**CptJake**

Dark Severance wrote:
CptJake wrote:
Sounds like Jarek and crew are playing CYA with their assets.
No, this side of the business has always existed and been separate entity. If you dig into the AvP thread again you'll see a few times where it has come up.

Archon has always existed although I thought it was a different name (might have been Archon, couldn't remember). This was miniature casting, sculpting, 3d printing side of Prodos. It was always separate and even brought up at some point when Prodos discussed cash flow issues 1-2 years back (can't remember when). One of the options was for Prodos to declare bankruptcy or dissolve, something along those lines but focus on their manufacturing. This is one of the reasons that side of the business has been handled differently.

But now it is more than casting. Now it is running a KS for a game. The move screams CYA. Especially when the rules for LOAD have sections which are verbatim from another game (not a Prodos or Archon game).

I call shenanigans.

**warboss**

Prodos is now in the game of setting up shell companies and transfering their assets in order to get away from the ramifications that come with using their own name. After stating that they wouldn't use kickstarter again due to the issues with AVP, they've decided to apparently transfer unicast to an "Archon" company separate from but owned by Prodos and start a kickstarter supposedly based in the US under yet another separate name as the public face while supposedly hiding behind an NDA... and they would have gotten away with it if it wasn't for those meddling kids!

It appears that it is easier to just buy a new bed instead of cleaning up the old one after you crap where you sleep for so long.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-board-game/posts/1584625

They (the Prodos UK entity) had some sort of semi-public split with an owner last year and pretty much moved most everything to their Polish entity soon after while at the same time being delinquent in filing necessary UK corporate documentation (all documented in the AVP thread... feel three to trudge through 250 pages for the exact quotes and links). If they're now owning their awesome new tech under yet another name instead of even their Polish Prodos entity, is there really anything stopping them from just closing up shop and leaving debtors of UK Prodos (including AVP backers) in the cold ala Defiance Games or Mierce?

@Dark, I'm not sure if you were aware of this yet another Prodos entity but you may want to make sure you're contracting with the "right" company that they plan on keeping long term.

**Dark Severance**

CptJake wrote:
But now it is more than casting. Now it is running a KS for a game. The move screams CYA. Especially when the rules for LOAD have sections which are verbatim from another game (not a Prodos or Archon game). I call shenanigans.

As it was brought up a few times in this thread, Prodos is not running the KS. The company Archon/Prodos however you want to associate isn't running it. They are manufacturing it. They have existed for a long time as we stated providing manufacturing for multiple Kickstarters. This is one of the reasons (which I even hinted at but couldn't remember the other name) why this side of the business has been handled differently.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

warboss wrote:
@Dark, I'm not sure if you were aware of this yet another Prodos entity but you may want to make sure you're contracting with the "right" company that they plan on keeping long term.

Yes I was. I just couldn't remember the name of it. They brought up over a year ago in the AvP thread when discussions came out that they ran out of money from the KS. This side has always been separate from them at least business-wise.

**warboss**

Dark Severance wrote:
As it was brought up a few times in this thread, Prodos is not running the KS. The company Archon/Prodos however you want to associate isn't running it. They are manufacturing it. They have existed for a long time as we stated providing manufacturing for multiple Kickstarters. This is one of the reasons (which I even hinted at but couldn't remember the other name) why this side of the business has been handled differently.

Providing manufacturing services for games owned and created by other companies is completely different than manufacturing and creating a game yourself and then just hiring another company to be the KS "face" of the campaign to avoid using your own. You really don't think Prodos is "running" the KS/making the decisions/calling the shots just because they hired some guy in Chicago to use his company's name for 30 days?

**Warzone Resurrection**

Zywus wrote:
Warzone Resurrection wrote:
2. UniCast is unique due to 2 factors, a) models quality b) production capacity c) low cost. UniCast it's resin quality level with HIPS manufacturing cycle time and cost of PVC - no other manufacturer is able to do this, thus it's a bit revolution.

Have you considered filing a patent for the unicast manufacturing process.

That would allow you to pull in licensing money by allowing others to make use of the tecnique in their manufacturing.

Hi there, manufacturing process cannot be patented, thus, the only solution here is to provide services and keep our cards close to the chest.

@Warboss, For clarification, Archon is a stand alone company, that is existing and providing services for 2.5+ years, the list is long of Archon partners.

Prodos is distribution/sales company only, is not providing any services or manufacturing. It has not financial debts or loans, only KS to finish, and holds 3 different licenses.

Hope this clears out the situation, thanks.

Thanks

**Dark Severance**

warboss wrote:
Providing manufacturing services for games owned and created by other companies is completely different than manufacturing and creating a game yourself and then just hiring another company to be the KS "face" of the campaign to avoid using your own. You really don't think Prodos is "running" the KS/making the decisions/calling the shots just because they hired some guy in Chicago to use his company's name for 30 days?

I don't think Prodos is running the Kickstarter at all, they are only involved in terms of manufacturing. I'm not backing LOAD but that is for other reasons.

Part of my background check into them through Board Game Geek led to a facebook group called "Miniature Boardgames - Arham Horror". I'm not sure of the involvement of those within LOAD if they created the group, was created within it, admins or something else but they have been part of that community for awhile. It has been in development with regular updates before it reached Kickstarter. That was how it basically got funded and seemingly came out of nowhere.

I could be completely wrong. There could somehow be some back room deals going on but that seems highly unlikely. The company knew there was going to be a touchy subject but being able to have a goal of $30K vs $90K (without UniCast) seems like an easy choice. The issue is how to deal with people who just want to scream at the top of the lungs because they are angry. That means hiring a PR company. Most people can't respond without getting emotionally involved and hiring a PR company is a good move. It is seen in the comments sections alone by what they chose to answer and haven't answered. It was a bold and risking move to say Archon was the manufacturer, previously they stated they wouldn't bring it up until after the close of the Kickstarter (I am guessing they figured if there were people unhappy, it still wouldn't prevent chargebacks). Most of the backers seem behind LOAD. The only involvement from Prodos/Archon that I can see and establish has just been strictly manufacturing.

**CptJake**

Dark Severance wrote:
CptJake wrote:
But now it is more than casting. Now it is running a KS for a game. The move screams CYA. Especially when the rules for LOAD have sections which are verbatim from another game (not a Prodos or Archon game). I call shenanigans.
As it was brought up a few times in this thread, Prodos is not running the KS. The company Archon/Prodos however you want to associate isn't running it. They are manufacturing it. They have existed for a long time as we stated providing manufacturing for multiple Kickstarters. This is one of the reasons (which I even hinted at but couldn't remember the other name) why this side of the business has been handled differently.

Archon IS running it. Their words, not mine:

Hi guys,

There have been a lot of fuss about who the creators of LOAD really are. Let us lift the veil of mystery!

Creator of LOAD is Archon sp. Z o.o

Archon is a standalone company with the shares owned by Prodos Games.

...

LOAD is first game that is designed and run by Archon and we hope to have many more after this one is successfully delivered to backers.

Or do you interpret their words differently than they are written?

**Warzone Resurrection**

As for UniCast here are some examples, thanks :

**Dark Severance**

CptJake wrote:
Archon IS running it.

That is my mistake. I actually did not see it stated "the creators of LOAD really are". I stand corrected in that part then.

The rules side of things and the people who were contracted out for the rules then must be who were "publicly" being the face at the time on Board Game Geek and Facebook. Although the rules and development have been around for awhile. I honestly didn't see a link between them . That explains why initially finding a business address was difficult if not existent at all. However as said before I was backing for other reasons, mostly because it was first created and 0 backed and also I don't like backing large KS from new companies, even if it is revealed to be another company entirely.

**warboss**

Warzone Resurrection wrote:

@Warboss, For clarification, Archon is a stand alone company, that is existing and providing services for 2.5+ years, the list is long of Archon partners.

Prodos is distribution/sales company only, is not providing any services or manufacturing. It has not financial debts or loans, only KS to finish, and holds 3 different licenses.

Hope this clears out the situation, thanks.

Thanks

I would argue that the KS rewards left to fulfill (namely AVP) are a debt but I appreciate you clarifying things.

**ced1106**

Dark Severance wrote:
Most people can't respond without getting emotionally involved and hiring a PR company is a good move.

Hiring a PR company whose owner's name is the same as a member of the staff behind Demigods Evolution before revealing their name was a bad move.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dark Severance wrote:
Although the rules and development have been around for awhile.

Parts of the formerly downloadable rules were plagiarized -- as in copied word for word -- from Rum and Bones 1st edition.

Yeah, I'd say that was quite "awhile".

**Dark Severance**

ced1106 wrote:
Parts of the formerly downloadable rules were plagiarized -- as in copied word for word -- from Rum and Bones 1st edition.

Was this during the LOAD Kickstarter?

I will see if I can find the link for the rules I found. They didn't look like Rum and Bones, but to be fair that is still boxed on the shelf at the moment. These were from before the Kickstarter, but I also didn't download rules from the Kickstarter and compare. Just curious if they completely went a different route then. Not that I was interested in the rules, MOBA board games don't really interest me.

**warboss**

Dark Severance wrote:
ced1106 wrote:
Parts of the formerly downloadable rules were plagiarized -- as in copied word for word -- from Rum and Bones 1st edition.
Was this during the LOAD Kickstarter?

I will see if I can find the link for the rules I found. They didn't look like Rum and Bones, but to be fair that is still boxed on the shelf at the moment. These were from before the Kickstarter, but I also didn't download rules from the Kickstarter and compare. Just curious if they completely went a different route then. Not that I was interested in the rules, MOBA board games don't really interest me.

I posted a link to the relevant BGG threads over in the AVP thread including one that had direct quotes from both sets of rules. After this discrepancy came to light, it seems ~~Prodos~~ ~~Archon~~ ~~Crittohitgames~~ Loadboardgame.com have taken down the actual file previously linked. From the rules quotes on BGG, the rules were close enough that I'd have expected them to have licensed the rules from Rum and Bones as the differences were similar to those between Star Trek Attack Wing and X-wing.

**MaxT**

Warzone Resurrection wrote:

Hi there, manufacturing process cannot be patented, thus, the only solution here is to provide services and keep our cards close to the chest.

@Warboss, For clarification, Archon is a stand alone company, that is existing and providing services for 2.5+ years, the list is long of Archon partners.

Prodos is distribution/sales company only, is not providing any services or manufacturing. It has not financial debts or loans, only KS to finish, and holds 3 different licenses.

Sorry, this isn't clear. If Prodos only a distribution and sales company, why is Unicast announced on the Prodo website blog as a Prodos manufacturing process ? Who does the manufacturing then ?

**kenofyork**

I found this comment in the Quirkworthy blog-

Spoiler:

Seems to have some good points and some bad. I am still perplexed about the process more than the company practices. It really seems impossible, and I am still wondering if the mold picture is a photo shop mash up.

HIPS is a heat melted plastic that comes in pellets, while resin is chemically activated and comes in a liquid. HIPS is going to require some pressure to cast, resin can be spun or gravity. The fact that they can cycle this as fast as HIPS is truly amazing. The comments I posted above mention the tear in the mold, which suggest a more traditional rubber mold.

The mystery deepens..........................

**NAVARRO**

Wow that last comment highlights so many issues. Lack of transparency seems to be the more glaring one.

Maybe its just an isolated case but Prodos needs to get their gak together ASAP.

**prowla**

kenofyork wrote:
I shared this info with a friend who has extensive resin casting experience and wanted to share this thought.

He thinks it is impossible to cast in this manner and he even thinks the picture of the mold has been photo shopped. I think if true this is a major advancement over other methods.

My resin buddy insists that the undercuts will shred any mold with only a few pulls. If you use a plastic injection machine the clamping force will deform the rubber component of the mold when closing. The aluminum frame surrounding the rubber insert can protect it from the clamping force and perhaps prevent this.

But, the entire rubber insert is going to have to be removed after each injection in order to be flexed to remove the model.

The looped handle on the backpack is an enigma for sure, as the mold has to be split in the tiny area under the handle in order for it to be extracted. If you pour a rubber mold over a master you are going to have to melt the master to get it to flow out and then try to cut it with a razor knife.

It is possible the molds themselves are 3D printed, which solves the problem with pouring the molds. I know you can 3D print in soft rubbery materials which could be used as a mold material, and maybe this is how the process was done.

In any event, my small group of tinkers has been having fun trying to figure this out!

I'm thinking your buddy is right - you can't make too many undercuts as it quickly starts to eat the mould. However.. that's not a problem, if you only use each mould once.

My guess of the process would be that they make the moulds in large quantities using wax (using separate wax inserts for undercuts), cast the models in wax moulds using liquid resin, and then melt the wax away. It's one extra step, but the materials would be cheap and it could be done in large batches without expensive machinery.

**MLaw**

We have no idea where that random anonymous post is from or how valid.. Maybe it is but even still, when they say the whole thing took 8 months for a company that is juggling quite a bit.. when we don't even know how fast it was promised in the first place?

**richred_uk**

MLaw wrote:
We have no idea where that random anonymous post is from or how valid.. Maybe it is but even still, when they say the whole thing took 8 months for a company that is juggling quite a bit.. when we don't even know how fast it was promised in the first place?

Not really anonymous, just not fully quoted above. Here's the link to the blog (this bit is all down in the comments) and a quote where he ID's his work and if you follow the link you can get his professional name:

https://quirkworthy.com/2016/05/05/casting-cost-falls/

Kyle says:
May 6, 2016 at 9:59 am
Sure. You can see our products now here on the BrokenToad website – http://www.brokentoadstore.co.uk/index.php?id_category=60&controller=category&id_lang=1

Handsome Jack was our first piece, from there I have created my brand logo in both a huge bust, and a single figure. Now working with new artists to bring more to the range such as the Mutant figure, and I have a Deamonic Hermit bust coming out very soon ( just sorting out the casting ).

**Warzone Resurrection**

richred_uk wrote:
MLaw wrote:
We have no idea where that random anonymous post is from or how valid.. Maybe it is but even still, when they say the whole thing took 8 months for a company that is juggling quite a bit.. when we don't even know how fast it was promised in the first place?

Not really anonymous, just not fully quoted above. Here's the link to the blog (this bit is all down in the comments) and a quote where he ID's his work and if you follow the link you can get his professional name:

https://quirkworthy.com/2016/05/05/casting-cost-falls/

Kyle says:
May 6, 2016 at 9:59 am
Sure. You can see our products now here on the BrokenToad website – http://www.brokentoadstore.co.uk/index.php?id_category=60&controller=category&id_lang=1

Handsome Jack was our first piece, from there I have created my brand logo in both a huge bust, and a single figure. Now working with new artists to bring more to the range such as the Mutant figure, and I have a Deamonic Hermit bust coming out very soon ( just sorting out the casting ).

Thanks for this quote, as a company we had some ups and down is the past mainly due to lack of trained and experienced staff Thanks has changed a lot in last year or so and here is one of more updated feedback we have been receiving about our services:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/wadedyer/fragged-empire-rpg-protagonist-archive-and-miniatu/posts/1557755

Thanks !

**PsychoticStorm**

That is nice to hear care to answer a few questions about Unicast?

**Cryptek of Awesome**

Warzone Resurrection wrote:
As for UniCast here are some examples, thanks :

Where does the centaur woman model come from?