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pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.

Sure, but it's only every used when you can get that 2+ (in 5+ or better cover), or against 3- AP. In all other cases they are squishier than MEQs. And, again, they are overpriced, lack options, don't have much damage output, take up an elites slot, and don't do anything interesting.

It isn't hard to get into cover and AP3 is hardly everywhere. Again I am not arguing that that isn't true but I am arguing giving them Invisibility base is ridiculous because casual players exist.

And I'm saying it's not. They don't have nearly enough damage output or base resistance to really be an overpowering threat. And you do realize that riptides are taken in elite slots. I'd much rather face a units of invisable stealth suits than a riptide. So I don't think "casual" players are an issue. Hell I'm basically a causal player.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:

When I meant the save I was referring to cover which with stealth and shrouded is a 2+ in almost all terrain. Am I wrong about that? Ignore cover isn't massively common and infiltrate really helps reduce the issue of short range.

Sure, but it's only every used when you can get that 2+ (in 5+ or better cover), or against 3- AP. In all other cases they are squishier than MEQs. And, again, they are overpriced, lack options, don't have much damage output, take up an elites slot, and don't do anything interesting.

It isn't hard to get into cover and AP3 is hardly everywhere. Again I am not arguing that that isn't true but I am arguing giving them Invisibility base is ridiculous because casual players exist.

And I'm saying it's not. They don't have nearly enough damage output or base resistance to really be an overpowering threat. And you do realize that riptides are taken in elite slots. I'd much rather face a units of invisable stealth suits than a riptide. So I don't think "casual" players are an issue. Hell I'm basically a causal player.

Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.

pm713 wrote:
Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.

I'm talking about giving it invis instead of S&S.

Tempestus Command - Senior Officer rule, Medkit/Standard doesn't replace a special weapons carrier.

Tempestus Scions - Sgt may exchange HS pistol for HS rifle, squad may reroll failed orders using Clarion Vox-Net.

Taurox Prime - may take 15pts of free vehicle equipment, outfitted upon deployment. Augur Array now costs 10pts. Rerolls both dangerous terrain checks and Cover Saves.

Valkyrie (Prime) - BS4. May exchange sponson HB for Volleyguns, may exchange Nose/Rack weapons for TL-Punisher Gatling. Brrrrrrt!

Commissar/LC - The first attached Commissar does not cost FOC slot, and gains MTC/DS.

Formations - Troops and Transports gain Obsec, all formations may include 2nd Command squad.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.

I'm talking about giving it invis instead of S&S.

Maybe you should have mentioned that in your post then .


Even then, though, free Invis is probably too much of a buff.

At least full on proper invis requires luck to cast and can theoretically be stopped by an opponent.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.

I'm talking about giving it invis instead of S&S.

Maybe you should have mentioned that in your post then .


Even then, though, free Invis is probably too much of a buff.

At least full on proper invis requires luck to cast and can theoretically be stopped by an opponent.

I stated it a couple times...

You said it a total of twice, once in the post I quoted and once hidden in a small paragraph earlier on.

You didn't mention it in your first post about the idea, or in any other post about it.

Two things...

I feel that pistols should be usable in melee. Instead of counting as an extra melee weapon, granting a S: user and AP - attack, they should use their full ranged profile. The over-costed plasma pistol suddenly competes with the plasma gun for damage output. They both do two shots a turn when within 12" (assuming charge range), but the pistol is also accompanied by melee attacks. All of the characters who are forced to buy plasma pistols (Kharn, Lukas, etc) are now more powerful. Armies with access to pistols but have poor melee stats (Imperial Guard) have a use for their side-arm. What's the point of a side-arm you never use when a sidearm is its most useful, in close quarters, except as a makeshift club? Khorne Berzerkers with plasma pistols make a lot more sense. The CSM choice to take plasma pistols as special weapons make a lot more sense.

The second is that Relentless should allow the model to also ignore the Unwieldy special rule, rather than Smash. The problem I have is that a Captain/ Chapter Master/ Wolf Lord are all significantly more inclined to take the cheaper option of Artificer Armor over Terminator Armor. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to pick Terminator armor over artificer armor, except for Deepstrike access, which drop pods and jump packs allow you to do for free. Terminators are a significantly bigger threat now, with I4 power fists/ thunder hammers/ power axes. It makes sense that a suit of armor LITERALLY supported by servos made to allow the wielder to fire a gun meant to be mounted on a tank with the same dexterity as if they were firing a rifle in the buff should be able to allow the Marine to wield a weapon like a power-fist more easily than a power-armored marine. The other implications are that units like Ork Meganobz are suddenly far more dangerous, and Ghazkull Thraka is finally viable. These units were all already afraid of each other, and their abilities against each other are unchanged (power klaws and power fists still go simo) but their ability in regards to other infantry is far more reflective of their capabilities.

The consequence is that Lightning Claws are slightly worse (still the only source of +1A and Shred, so y'know, still not bad at killing infantry) for loyalists (the power fist/ lightning claw combo would still live) and that the Khorne: Daemonkin Axe of Khorne is essentially a weaker power fist on a terminator. But those aren't necessarily problems, as much as trade-offs (you have the servo-added strength to flip a tank and you still choose to wield a very sharp axe? Your loss).

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.

I'm talking about giving it invis instead of S&S.

Maybe you should have mentioned that in your post then .


Even then, though, free Invis is probably too much of a buff.

At least full on proper invis requires luck to cast and can theoretically be stopped by an opponent.

I stated it a couple times...

What if they only had invisibility when X inches away from the enemy?

Remove Ghazzy detachment "bonuses" and they're more or less playable.

 Kraytirous wrote:
Two things...

I feel that pistols should be usable in melee. Instead of counting as an extra melee weapon, granting a S: user and AP - attack, they should use their full ranged profile. The over-costed plasma pistol suddenly competes with the plasma gun for damage output. They both do two shots a turn when within 12" (assuming charge range), but the pistol is also accompanied by melee attacks. All of the characters who are forced to buy plasma pistols (Kharn, Lukas, etc) are now more powerful. Armies with access to pistols but have poor melee stats (Imperial Guard) have a use for their side-arm. What's the point of a side-arm you never use when a sidearm is its most useful, in close quarters, except as a makeshift club? Khorne Berzerkers with plasma pistols make a lot more sense. The CSM choice to take plasma pistols as special weapons make a lot more sense.

The second is that Relentless should allow the model to also ignore the Unwieldy special rule, rather than Smash. The problem I have is that a Captain/ Chapter Master/ Wolf Lord are all significantly more inclined to take the cheaper option of Artificer Armor over Terminator Armor. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever to pick Terminator armor over artificer armor, except for Deepstrike access, which drop pods and jump packs allow you to do for free. Terminators are a significantly bigger threat now, with I4 power fists/ thunder hammers/ power axes. It makes sense that a suit of armor LITERALLY supported by servos made to allow the wielder to fire a gun meant to be mounted on a tank with the same dexterity as if they were firing a rifle in the buff should be able to allow the Marine to wield a weapon like a power-fist more easily than a power-armored marine. The other implications are that units like Ork Meganobz are suddenly far more dangerous, and Ghazkull Thraka is finally viable. These units were all already afraid of each other, and their abilities against each other are unchanged (power klaws and power fists still go simo) but their ability in regards to other infantry is far more reflective of their capabilities.

The consequence is that Lightning Claws are slightly worse (still the only source of +1A and Shred, so y'know, still not bad at killing infantry) for loyalists (the power fist/ lightning claw combo would still live) and that the Khorne: Daemonkin Axe of Khorne is essentially a weaker power fist on a terminator. But those aren't necessarily problems, as much as trade-offs (you have the servo-added strength to flip a tank and you still choose to wield a very sharp axe? Your loss).

I really like these suggestions a lot.

 Jaxler wrote:


What if they only had invisibility when X inches away from the enemy?

In that case I'd just go back to the old stealth rules where you had to roll 3d6 to see if you were in range of them. That means thay have to be able to shoot at you if you can shoot at them,

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

pm713 wrote:
Really it seems like we have very different ideas of how hard it is to kill something that's always invisible and almost always has a 2+ save.

I'm talking about giving it invis instead of S&S.

Well then someone can't read here.

Give Wyches the acrobat rule. +3 inches to any moves made (charge, run, consolidate, normal move, etc.) and make their reflexes a 5+ inv against shooting and not just melee. Increase their speed and reliability to get into combat and make them more survivable to shooting. Also make archons able to take archite glaives. An hq without ap 2 hurts considering how much of it is flying around with marines, GK, and everything else I'm to lazy to list