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 Peregrine wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:
The designers even explained that they do not aim for balance in card design but for love instead.

{citation needed}

This claim rather directly contradicts the fact that they spend months on extensive playtesting and development for each set they make with the intent of making sure everything is balanced. They certainly start with love in the conceptual stage of design, but love doesn't mean a card can't have the appropriate mana cost/rarity/etc. They will work very hard to make a concept work by adjusting the details if they love it enough, but they have said over and over again that if a card can't be balanced or has rule clarity/function problems that can't be resolved R&D says "that's too bad" and throws it out.

You are the only one who believes this.

WayneTheGame wrote:
You can believe what you want, but it was evident in the fact that they:
-----
Should I go on? I won't deny that there's a lot of hatred online, but believe me most of it is very well founded towards the GW of the past.

That is a beauty of Dakka discussions over some other forums
I do believe there is mucho hatred online and these posters believe it is well founded. But I also very much do believe that GW is in a much better place this past year than many years before it and continued to be impressed with the speed of change. I enjoy their games more than any other and it's been a huge part of my life for years so maybe I'm just coming from a different perspective. GW's return to social media and events, videos coming out regularly and of varied topics and allowing its staff to open up to interviews and other community engagement have been wonderful to see.

 VeteranNoob wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
You can believe what you want, but it was evident in the fact that they:
-----
Should I go on? I won't deny that there's a lot of hatred online, but believe me most of it is very well founded towards the GW of the past.

That is a beauty of Dakka discussions over some other forums
I do believe there is mucho hatred online and these posters believe it is well founded. But I also very much do believe that GW is in a much better place this past year than many years before it and continued to be impressed with the speed of change. I enjoy their games more than any other and it's been a huge part of my life for years so maybe I'm just coming from a different perspective. GW's return to social media and events, videos coming out regularly and of varied topics and allowing its staff to open up to interviews and other community engagement have been wonderful to see.

I agree, there are few who have been as vitriolic about GW in the past as I have and if you'd read my posts 4 or 5 years back, I was busy slamming their head in the car door on a daily basis, there's certainly plenty of room for further improvement as well, but for now, just the fact that it's not more bad news, that there are good things happening again, has really boosted my spirits and lowered my antagonism to the company.

I'm optimistic about GW for the first time in a long, long time.

HandofMars wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:
The designers even explained that they do not aim for balance in card design but for love instead.

{citation needed}

This claim rather directly contradicts the fact that they spend months on extensive playtesting and development for each set they make with the intent of making sure everything is balanced. They certainly start with love in the conceptual stage of design, but love doesn't mean a card can't have the appropriate mana cost/rarity/etc. They will work very hard to make a concept work by adjusting the details if they love it enough, but they have said over and over again that if a card can't be balanced or has rule clarity/function problems that can't be resolved R&D says "that's too bad" and throws it out.

You are the only one who believes this.

You do realize that the developers for MTG talk about the process, right? And have written detailed articles on how they make new cards/sets? Unlike with GW we don't have to speculate about their process. So if you're going to suggest that WOTC employees are lying when they say "we spend months on extensive playtesting and development" then you'd better have more than just vague "you're the only one who believes this" statements.

Aside from simply finally putting out an FAQ for the first time in years, what genuinely makes people think GW is turning over a huge new leaf? The FAQ's themselves are just as awkwardly handled as in previous editions (though are very artistically presented), the rules are increasingly bloated and insanelty unbalanced, there's no atrenpt by GW to correct that or reign it in, the prices rise ever higher, and longstanding issues continue to go unaddressed.

It seems like people are taking any tiny thing GW gets halfway right and seizing on it as some sort of new paradigm. I want to be positive about GW, but opening up a FB page back up for the 3rd or 4th time and doing a round of FAQ's very slowly isn't exactly inspiring.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 VeteranNoob wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
You can believe what you want, but it was evident in the fact that they:
-----
Should I go on? I won't deny that there's a lot of hatred online, but believe me most of it is very well founded towards the GW of the past.

That is a beauty of Dakka discussions over some other forums
I do believe there is mucho hatred online and these posters believe it is well founded. But I also very much do believe that GW is in a much better place this past year than many years before it and continued to be impressed with the speed of change. I enjoy their games more than any other and it's been a huge part of my life for years so maybe I'm just coming from a different perspective. GW's return to social media and events, videos coming out regularly and of varied topics and allowing its staff to open up to interviews and other community engagement have been wonderful to see.

I agree, there are few who have been as vitriolic about GW in the past as I have and if you'd read my posts 4 or 5 years back, I was busy slamming their head in the car door on a daily basis, there's certainly plenty of room for further improvement as well, but for now, just the fact that it's not more bad news, that there are good things happening again, has really boosted my spirits and lowered my antagonism to the company.

I'm optimistic about GW for the first time in a long, long time.

Excellent!
I get the history and see more and more posts acknowledging change I just hope eventually some of those folks let it happen and maybe they'll be somewhat happy eventually. Maybe the new norm will be the good stuff we're seeing now. I'm sure they could use a good 'ed slammin' now and then but I can not stress how important it is to actually communicate your feedback to GW via official channels where they will see it and pass it on to the folks who actually make those decisions. Emails are still the best to offer any (and I do mean any) advice, question or request. Facebook is great now to ask respectful constructive questions but email is of course a record on your end. The folks you want to see your comments can be reached this way but it's nice to see the community team active an this community engagement (first, existing) improving.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aside from simply finally putting out an FAQ for the first time in years, what genuinely makes people think GW is turning over a huge new leaf? The FAQ's themselves are just as awkwardly handled as in previous editions (though are very artistically presented), the rules are increasingly bloated and insanelty unbalanced, there's no atrenpt by GW to correct that or reign it in, the prices rise ever higher, and longstanding issues continue to go unaddressed.

It seems like people are taking any tiny thing GW gets halfway right and seizing on it as some sort of new paradigm. I want to be positive about GW, but opening up a FB page back up for the 3rd or 4th time and doing a round of FAQ's very slowly isn't exactly inspiring.

They're trying, which is more than they were doing a year ago.

I agree, much of it is very small things and still misses more than it hits, but the Rah-rah-rah is that people want to GW to continue, hoping the more involved and interactive they get, the better the outcome will be. Right now, they seem to be trying to apply a bandage to the gushing bloody stump they've extended, and we're all hoping they'll have the sense soon to sew it up and get a replacement - to fix their prices and rules in practical terms. First though, we've got to het them out of that ivory tower, though.

ShockTroopahs wrote:
I can't really see what the problem is with them. I just started playing Warhammer, and I can understand that a drastic price increase in items for the game is considered unacceptable, but it's just the company trying to bring in more sales. Have you seen their stocks lately?


And you'll have to forgive me if I don't know what I'm talking about. I'm only saying this based on the little information I've seen so far.


They're honestly just doing their jobs by pulling in more money from kits and such. If you think that the prices of Warhammer minifigs are too much, then you should see how much a single meta-game card in MTG will go up for.

Probably already been said but here's my 2 cents. I used to mildly hate GW for the price increases ever since i started in '07. Yes that's about 9 years. I started when the '300' movie came out to give a time frame. In that time the game was more balanced. Now it's crap in balance (at least 40k). They murdered fantasy which was mostly supported by loyal hardcore fans and destroyed every bit of lore, models, rules and everything they could get their grimy little hands on and considered any who didn't follow their pied piper song to be "not true fans" and therefore not wanted anyway. I want you to know that Warhammer Fantasy players often spent hundreds or more on their armies and they presented Age of Sigmar up to a day or two before release as being 9th edition Warhammer Fantasy. There was no way we wouldn't be pissed. They basically only had a rough draft which was free but it was like a very rough copy and was poorly done. If a student did it they'd have gotten a C or a B for letter grade and this the top wargaming minis company we're talking here. Also the game was meant for 40k fans and the humor was so childish most were in shock and utterly embarrassed. I kid you not it was set up like an awful practical joke. Not only that but if you want to play Warhammer Fantasy 8th edition or otherwise GW won't let you play. That's right. You buy hundreds of dollars worth of models and want to play but GW won't let you play their game in their shop. A previous primary game can't be played whereas every other game is allowed to be played including lord of the rings and all the specialist games. That's why Fantasy players hate them. The heads at GW are scum.

We had to deal with metal going to finecast and then plastic with price increases each time for crappier materials. They made BS claims like when 5th edition imperial guard came out they split the box in half (20 models for 35 USD to 10 models for 22 USD) with the claim it has more detail (similar to their finecast BS claims which was a lie and had bubbles in material as well as other crap). Currently those same 10 guardsmen models now cost 29 USD. Basically they IP lawyered whenever possible and when they couldn't have it both ways they tried protecting their IP more by calling imperial guard 'astra militarum' or some mouthful garbage nobody would ever say so that they could protect the IP more. I mean crap look into Age of Sigmar and sigmar's realm seems to have the words sigmaron or sigmarillion or sigmarite in there as if they could just use it to slap an IP on it. Christ at this point it feels like Sigmar just wants to die and wants people to pull the plug on that game already.

So basically high costs, IP lawyering, alienating the fanbase, lack of balance between army factions, lore changes or outright destruction of it and games and more. They've even tried to sue blizzard and i heard at one point they supposedly won. If you played Warhammer Fantasy you probably hold the company in contempt and compared to the 40k whine about Mat Ward he never did nearly as much damage as Kirby did to the company or to any game setting. Fantasy deserved better. R.I.P. Fantasy you were my favorite fantasy setting even topping Lord of the Rings.

I hear that Kirby was kicked out though being british they probably should've done an old fashion throw rotten food at the fool or hung him or something or at least neutered him to prevent him from spreading his seed. Sadly he just stepped down. I hear the new guy in charge is doing good things and shocking people in a good way. It's hard to undo all that bad blood though. I probably should've just left for a cheaper and smaller company. Maybe i should just move on to X-wing. It does sound pretty cool from what i've heard.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Aside from simply finally putting out an FAQ for the first time in years, what genuinely makes people think GW is turning over a huge new leaf? The FAQ's themselves are just as awkwardly handled as in previous editions (though are very artistically presented), the rules are increasingly bloated and insanelty unbalanced, there's no atrenpt by GW to correct that or reign it in, the prices rise ever higher, and longstanding issues continue to go unaddressed.

It seems like people are taking any tiny thing GW gets halfway right and seizing on it as some sort of new paradigm. I want to be positive about GW, but opening up a FB page back up for the 3rd or 4th time and doing a round of FAQ's very slowly isn't exactly inspiring.

They're trying, which is more than they were doing a year ago.

I agree, much of it is very small things and still misses more than it hits, but the Rah-rah-rah is that people want to GW to continue, hoping the more involved and interactive they get, the better the outcome will be. Right now, they seem to be trying to apply a bandage to the gushing bloody stump they've extended, and we're all hoping they'll have the sense soon to sew it up and get a replacement - to fix their prices and rules in practical terms. First though, we've got to het them out of that ivory tower, though.

Bring back Warhammer Fantasy in some shape or form. If you don't have a re-envisioning of the Old World and old game then let us play 8th edition or whichever one we choose. They said the game was dead themselves. If that's the case and every other game is allowed then they should allow us to play their games in their store. The have flipped off Fantasy players so hard i don't think almost any old Fantasy players still play the game. Everybody with 2,000 pts of an army and several years behind them was bitter about this.

 Talizvar wrote:
It is a similar feeling I got with Skitarii where certain elements seem incomplete or "broken" (not in a good OP way).
The models are awesome but you scratch your head as you try to get decent use of them on the table.

The link in my sig paints a complete picture of my frustrations with GW and how 7th Ed drove me away (after completely buying into 6th), but the part that always gets to me with their rules, more than anything else, is that even if I can live with the core rules - and with 6th I could - they always feth up the Codices. Always.

I play Tyranids. I play Chaos. I also have an Ork army. Is it fun knowing that my chosen armies are the NPC races of the game, and are destined to always have gak books? It's even more maddening when you know that the dev team acknowledged that the previous 'Nid Codex had some major deficiencies but when it came time to do the new one made things objectively worse for almost every unit in the book.

The Mechanicus books are the same. I think they're great, because I'm a die-hard AdMech fan, but it was very clear that they weren't complete books. The first one didn't come with an HQ. What??? The Harli book was the same. They couldn't put a 'Great Harlequin' statline in the book, and use the parts from the Troupe kit mixed with the parts from the skimmer/jetbikes to make one?

The Deathwatch book is just as frustrating, with weirdly arbitrary wargear limitations and restrictions that just don't make sense. X unit can have Y weapon, but not if they're in Z armour, even though unit A wearing Z armour can take Y weapon. The cynic in me says that the rules are that way because GW don't make that exact model and are so paranoid about 3rd parties that they won't make rules for things that cannot be built specifically from a single kit, and the optimist in me says that they just didn't realise they wrote it that way (like the way Chaos Terminator weapon options are worded in the current Codex). And the worst part is, neither is a good option. When you're optimist option is that they just don't know how to write rules, what hope is there?

So even if they fixed up their core rules, the books for the armies are still atrocious.

And then you remember that the Eldar Codex exists, and you begin to believe that they design everything in a vacuum.

Haven't they stated that they basically just go with this would be cool and not really think about how it affects the game

WayneTheGame wrote:
Haven't they stated that they basically just go with this would be cool and not really think about how it affects the game

This is really the only way they could have ended up with what they currently have.

Mostly because its so easy, and the frothmatic GW defenders are a lot of fun, well fun in the sense of seeing their 'facts' amusingly dismantled, usually leading to even more outlandish claims

Be careful, they could be making us to think they are trying to do things better.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
[The cynic in me says that the rules are that way because GW don't make that exact model and are so paranoid about 3rd parties that they won't make rules for things that cannot be built specifically from a single kit, and the optimist in me says that they just didn't realise they wrote it that way (like the way Chaos Terminator weapon options are worded in the current Codex). And the worst part is, neither is a good option. When you're optimist option is that they just don't know how to write rules, what hope is there?
So even if they fixed up their core rules, the books for the armies are still atrocious.
And then you remember that the Eldar Codex exists, and you begin to believe that they design everything in a vacuum.

I agree with much of what you said.
My first / main army was Chaos in general (CSM, Daemons all gods) then Inquisition in general (Grey Knights, Inq., now Death Watch), Black Templar, AM/IG (originally to be conscripted into Inq.) and Skitarii. I sure know how to pick a whole lot of suck, rules wise.

I am absolutely certain GW is making rules ONLY for whatever they managed to make for models.
With the lawsuit they pretty much learned that you got the rights if you got the model so if your competitor gets it out first, they are in trouble.
What they choose in the Deathwatch codex can ONLY be that since it is so targeted (HQ that does not get a bike, but gets a jump-pack, etc.).
Correction, not ONLY, the Deathwatch Darkstar is a fine example of a specifically made "troop transport" and it completely sucks in doing that.

They should just wave the white flag and mark-up the models and do like Warmahordes and put the rules on cards and occasionally sell expensive update card packs.
Broken codex's with supplements as they release new models is irritating.

Another alternative is make White Dwarf more expensive and release full sheet (heavy stock) rules for any and all models as they are released. It would also address my issue of not being able to keep up on what everyone's armies do since there is so much material and expensive. A bit of 6th edition and mostly 7th edition is the first 40k where I did not know what all the armies do, I really am dependent on my opponent knowing their stuff and being honest. Heck, they can make a nice expensive BL compilation that gets updated people could subscribe to electronically.

Again, there are many other more "humane" ways to monetize and still get rules out that do not need to be written by committee.
This is why GW gets to be "demonized", they are so close to being able to do things right and somehow wander off the path.

Players demonise GW because GW treat players as nothing more than a wallet to rinse cash out of, then to be disposed of ASAP once they dry up.

To me personally:

- Raising of prices every so many months.
- Closing down of local stores
- Dis-allowing of webstores
- Bringing in Finecast and saying it's cheaper to make, but then raising the prices again
- Going back to plastic, then keeping the raised prices
- Legal arguments over other companies making models while also copying stuff from other people (think of the STST(name?) the imperial walker vs the star wars version, also think of Metallica suing other groups/companies and how it hurt their image
- Dirty excuses to some of the armies I played. (We want to simplify the game so we are simplifying your codex. Let's start with CSM. Oh wait, a few months later, here's the new SM codex with even more rules, some of which are ones removed from the CSM)


There are quite a few more things that made me face palm hard, but they are not coming to mind. Probably because of all the face palming.

I do agree that there is some truth when you see the memes:

 notprop wrote:
And that's a card game that doesn't deal with 3 dimensions on top of faction rules...

Just because this is a bugbear of mine...

I don't have the numbers for Warmachine MK3, but in MK2 there were some 140 unique Feats, 150 or so unique spells and at last count over eight hundred and thirty special abilities- not including the basic icon abilities like Pathfinder or Weaponmaster (oh I forgot animi). You may not like Warmachine, but it demonstrates clearly that even with tabletop rules, factions and massive numbers of interactions a game can be more balanced than 40k.

 Peregrine wrote:

HandofMars wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 StygianBeach wrote:
The designers even explained that they do not aim for balance in card design but for love instead.

{citation needed}

This claim rather directly contradicts the fact that they spend months on extensive playtesting and development for each set they make with the intent of making sure everything is balanced. They certainly start with love in the conceptual stage of design, but love doesn't mean a card can't have the appropriate mana cost/rarity/etc. They will work very hard to make a concept work by adjusting the details if they love it enough, but they have said over and over again that if a card can't be balanced or has rule clarity/function problems that can't be resolved R&D says "that's too bad" and throws it out.

You are the only one who believes this.

You do realize that the developers for MTG talk about the process, right? And have written detailed articles on how they make new cards/sets? Unlike with GW we don't have to speculate about their process. So if you're going to suggest that WOTC employees are lying when they say "we spend months on extensive playtesting and development" then you'd better have more than just vague "you're the only one who believes this" statements.

They spend far more than a few months testing. They are at minimum over a year ahead of the market. That's why interns like Gerry Thompson, a pro player, are not allowed to play in competitive magic, or even talk about sets for a year after they leave WOTC.

MTG is extensively playtested. I have a friend there, and it's ridiculous.

xraytango wrote:

Well, see there is the assumption that the card has that value while in the package. Anyone could wind up pulling that card from the pack and have bought it brand new for the price of a package of MTG cards.

That card is only worth an exorbitant amount on the secondary market, of which WotC sees exactly zero dollars only after having been purchased for the price of the card pack (about $3.99 iirc?)

I know this is off topic from the OP, but I had to respond to this comment. This is very misleading to say that WotC sees no benefit from a strong secondary market in MtG. Having those high dollar cards on the secondary market absolutely benefits WotC, because those secondary sellers will buy cases of boosters just to get those high dollar cards, which benefits WotC because without that secondary market, booster sales go way down. Its the primary reason that the power cards are almost always rare (and of course WotC generally knows before they release a set what cards are going to be power cards and what aren't). The entire business model for MtG seems to rely on the secondary market (tournaments drive sales, and you can't have tournament worthy decks without that secondary market).

So while they aren't GW, Wizards isn't exactly a shining paragon either.

You want a good example OP? This months white dwarf comes with a model for $10. They are charging (I gak you not) $30 for it on their site. $30 for a single model that has no options or poses. And it's not even a big model. It's the size of a space marine.

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:

 VeteranNoob wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
You can believe what you want, but it was evident in the fact that they:
-----
Should I go on? I won't deny that there's a lot of hatred online, but believe me most of it is very well founded towards the GW of the past.

That is a beauty of Dakka discussions over some other forums
I do believe there is mucho hatred online and these posters believe it is well founded. But I also very much do believe that GW is in a much better place this past year than many years before it and continued to be impressed with the speed of change. I enjoy their games more than any other and it's been a huge part of my life for years so maybe I'm just coming from a different perspective. GW's return to social media and events, videos coming out regularly and of varied topics and allowing its staff to open up to interviews and other community engagement have been wonderful to see.

I agree, there are few who have been as vitriolic about GW in the past as I have and if you'd read my posts 4 or 5 years back, I was busy slamming their head in the car door on a daily basis, there's certainly plenty of room for further improvement as well, but for now, just the fact that it's not more bad news, that there are good things happening again, has really boosted my spirits and lowered my antagonism to the company.

I'm optimistic about GW for the first time in a long, long time.

QFT, I as well am slowly joining that camp. With the stuff I've picked up lately, (Lost Patrol, and Space Hulk) rather surprised by it myself, I am hopeful... but at the same time apprehensive on the upturn and excellent rate in which the direction is changing. I was all the way to the point of apathetic about GW... NOW, they seem to even slowly, get the spark back, and are starting in a more positive direction then they have in quite sometime. I'm not all ready to just start drinking the Kool Aid, but at the very least, I'm watching their change of direction, and liking what I am seeing. I'm on the fence, just yet, so I don't get the rug pulled out from under me when the Spanish Inquisition shows up, because... no one expects the Inquisition.

 Kojiro wrote:

 notprop wrote:
And that's a card game that doesn't deal with 3 dimensions on top of faction rules...

Just because this is a bugbear of mine...

I don't have the numbers for Warmachine MK3, but in MK2 there were some 140 unique Feats, 150 or so unique spells and at last count over eight hundred and thirty special abilities- not including the basic icon abilities like Pathfinder or Weaponmaster (oh I forgot animi). You may not like Warmachine, but it demonstrates clearly that even with tabletop rules, factions and massive numbers of interactions a game can be more balanced than 40k.

Ah yes Warmachine; A game so tight and balanced you need to take 2 or 3 armylists to a competition.

Don't get me wrong I'm not anti-WMH or anything but no system is without it's flaws. Mk3 seems to have died on its arse at the club I attend, many of the things I have seen listed are being stated about PP too.

I play games for fun so am not at all obsessed by the perfect system or wedded to one system so quite happily take it or leave it.

 Kojiro wrote:

 notprop wrote:
And that's a card game that doesn't deal with 3 dimensions on top of faction rules...

Just because this is a bugbear of mine...

I don't have the numbers for Warmachine MK3, but in MK2 there were some 140 unique Feats, 150 or so unique spells and at last count over eight hundred and thirty special abilities- not including the basic icon abilities like Pathfinder or Weaponmaster (oh I forgot animi). You may not like Warmachine, but it demonstrates clearly that even with tabletop rules, factions and massive numbers of interactions a game can be more balanced than 40k.

A large part of that is because of solid game design and clear language. Each unit has its own card, as well as rules being based on keywords that act and mean the same across all factions. Fire is always Fire etcetera. Any variation or iteration has to satisfy the base rule first and then any additional effects take place, additional effects that are also beholden to keywords.

This is a strength of Warmachine / Hordes and is a good design that GW's designers could learn something from.

GW suck at using language, both from the sentence construction point of view (to create ambiguous sentences) and also from defining specific keywords and sticking to those definitions.

It's stuff that should be found by a decent editor which has always given the impression the rules were written off the cuff and didn't pass the desk of the editor before being published.

Has there ever been an editor credited in one of their rule books or in a codex?

I've proof-read rulebooks before. I'll do it.

 notprop wrote:

I play games for fun so am not at all obsessed by the perfect system or wedded to one system so quite happily take it or leave it.

As a very casual player, I hate being stuck with "how does this work?" or "what happens now?" questions, that aren't easy to figure out. Whilst that wasn't unique to 40K (I had a few questions about X-wing that wasn't clear from the core rules), it certainly takes up the most time.

Herzlos wrote:

 notprop wrote:

I play games for fun so am not at all obsessed by the perfect system or wedded to one system so quite happily take it or leave it.

As a very casual player, I hate being stuck with "how does this work?" or "what happens now?" questions, that aren't easy to figure out. Whilst that wasn't unique to 40K (I had a few questions about X-wing that wasn't clear from the core rules), it certainly takes up the most time.

I've always been baffled why people say "the terrible rules don't bother me because I play for fun".

What do those people think the rest of us do, play to be miserable? Other than a few freaks I'm pretty sure everyone plays for fun.

Just because we care about the quality of the rules doesn't mean we aren't playing for fun, it's just getting bogged down in junky rules and playing biased games isn't our idea of "fun".

Not caring about the rules isn't synonymous for "fun", it just means your standards are lower