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I think you should go with a plain white or tan box with a big sticker, even for retail. You'll save cash that way and also it's quick and easy. You don't need a big & flashy full color box for these, and in fact a corrugated kind of box would offer better protection too. Just order em from uline.com

Oh look. Another Kickstarter is late. Also, water is wet and the Pope is Catholic.

I'm surprised so many people are so petulant about this. MisterJustin has been very open throughout the entire campaign.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I'm surprised so many people are so petulant about this. MisterJustin has been very open throughout the entire campaign.

I'm more contented with this than The Toughest Girls of the Galaxy, but even I'm getting impatient.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I'm surprised so many people are so petulant about this. MisterJustin has been very open throughout the entire campaign.

I agree. We all knew that SWM wasn't doing the milling and injection molding in house. We all knew it was WGF for quite a while. And no amount of money can prevent a company from over promising or underestimating their ability to deliver. Such is the risk of using 3rd party manufacturing. It's likely one reason GW does all theirs in house(among many other reasons of course).

Justin didn't run off with everyone's money. These setbacks are far more of a headache for him than they will ever be for us.

This is a product that most of us I imagine will have the rest of our lives or at least until we stop gaming. As such, I'm fine waiting a little longer to get it since I know I'll use it for many years to come.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I'm surprised so many people are so petulant about this. MisterJustin has been very open throughout the entire campaign.

I think its because it's an actually new product, not simply more models. Meaning, people pledged this because they saw a need that nothing else on the market (realm of battle boards aside) really filled.

I think the problem is that it's been over a year since the kickstarter ended. Patience is one thing, but when it's been over a year, and nearly a year since the projected delivery, I think impatience isn't totally out of line.

Now, there's no need to be nasty. Nohting can be done, but it always sucks to have your cash tied up for 18 months.

To save me wading through the thread does anyone remember the approximate RRP for a 6' x 4' plus equivalent package.

$250 USD gets a 4'x8' setup at retail iirc.

I'd just like to be able to prime these before winter sets in, is all.

 Aerethan wrote:
$250 USD gets a 4'x8' setup at retail iirc.

Thanks, seems more than reasonable in real money.

 Polonius wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I'm surprised so many people are so petulant about this. MisterJustin has been very open throughout the entire campaign.

I think its because it's an actually new product,

Until you do something like this, it's hard to wrap your head around just how many things can go wrong, and how much is obvious in hindsight, but inexperience means you never saw it coming. A customer I was working with was bringing a new product to market, and had very specialized packaging needs, and this was a big company and a big project that already had a couple tens of millions of USD sunk into production. They thought they had the packaging thing all wrapped up, until abruptly they were told the volumes they were requesting were too much for the packaging company to handle, which ending up screwing everything up about getting it out the door by three months.

There's book knowledge of how everything is expected to work, and what might go wrong, and then the actual boots on the ground, direct experience of a process. The former never completely prepares you for the latter.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

 Polonius wrote:

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I'm surprised so many people are so petulant about this. MisterJustin has been very open throughout the entire campaign.

I think its because it's an actually new product,

Until you do something like this, it's hard to wrap your head around just how many things can go wrong, and how much is obvious in hindsight, but inexperience means you never saw it coming. A customer I was working with was bringing a new product to market, and had very specialized packaging needs, and this was a big company and a big project that already had a couple tens of millions of USD sunk into production. They thought they had the packaging thing all wrapped up, until abruptly they were told the volumes they were requesting were too much for the packaging company to handle, which ending up screwing everything up about getting it out the door by three months.

There's book knowledge of how everything is expected to work, and what might go wrong, and then the actual boots on the ground, direct experience of a process. The former never completely prepares you for the latter.

That's why its understandable that its late. that has nothing to do with people being annoyed that it's late.

When you're hungry, how interested in you in hearing from the kichen how many things went wrong?

The lesson I've learned is to support those companies that have tightly put together proposition that don't offer open ended stretch goals.

Rather than keep adding new potential products/goals to a Kickstarter - here new themes - I'd rather companies focus on delivering the initial offering on time.

Once they have proof of delivery come back to the market with expansions/new themes.

I'm not trying to give Secret Weapon a hard time. Justin's a great guy, and they put out a top notch product. I had backed this kickstarter until a few life changes, coupled with the low savings compared to RRP, caused me to bail.

Kickstarters like this are a reminder of what crowdfunding is really about: pooling money to make something possible. It's a slow, painful process, but somehting new existst that wouldn't otherwise. Too many of us have been suckling at the teat of giveaway kickstarters.

This isn't directed at you, Polonius, but rather a trend I am seeing in this thread and other delayed Kickstarter threads.

 Polonius wrote:
I'm not trying to give Secret Weapon a hard time. Justin's a great guy, and they put out a top notch product. I had backed this kickstarter until a few life changes, coupled with the low savings compared to RRP, caused me to bail.

It is really aggravating that you feel the need to even state this, or that others might misinterpret your acknowledgement of backers' frustration as giving Justin or SWM a hard time. I have been vocal in this thread about my disappointment in how this Kickstarter has developed. Knowing how much of a financial burden the set backs are causing SWM, and Justin personally, has caused me to back off my public outrage, but this whole process with WGF, and the other companies in China who have thrown wrenches into the operation, is bs.

It has killed any interest in backing future projects that are working with WGF, and if/when SWM does another Tablescapes KS I won't be a part of it if the same vendors are in the manufacturing chain. Balls have been dropped, deadlines have been missed, and yet, backers are supposed to just sit around and hold hands and bask in the magical glow of crowdfunding? bs. We are allowed to be disappointed, and we should be allowed to vent that frustration online without some ridiculous finger wagging and shaming by a minority of backers who either don't care, are too burdened with other WIP projects to notice the delay, or offer some other contrived reasons for why the rest of us are being ridiculous, "petulant" whiners.

Mr. Justin is the face of his company. That is a double-edged sword since he gets the accolades for his company's successes and he gets to eat crow and deal with turd storms when things go wrong. I think considering the situation people have been reasonable. No one here is calling for Mr. Justin's head on a stick. Most of us understand the situation, but the situation sucks and people should be allowed to say as much without a choir of passive aggressive attacks leveled at them.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

Balls have been dropped, deadlines have been missed, and yet, backers are supposed to just sit around and hold hands and bask in the magical glow of crowdfunding? bs. We are allowed to be disappointed, and we should be allowed to vent that frustration online without some ridiculous finger wagging and shaming by a minority of backers who either don't care, are too burdened with other WIP projects to notice the delay, or offer some other contrived reasons for why the rest of us are being ridiculous, "petulant" whiners.

I think, at some point, when a kickstarter is delayed, you have the same right to complain as a person with a crappy car has when it finally breaks down for good. It sucks, and it can really be a pain in the ass, but it's not like it was outside of the realm of possiblity.

At some point, when you back a kickstarter, you're saying, "sure, I'm going to give money to a smaller company, that's going to have a chinese company produce a product, and then ship it to me. Oh, and I don't know exactly what I'm getting yet." It's a self evidently ludicrous thing to actually expect these to be on time. That they deliver at all is a minor miracle.

 MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I'm surprised so many people are so petulant about this. MisterJustin has been very open throughout the entire campaign.

You should see the Raging Heroes thread. It makes this one look like a bunch of hippies singing around a camp fire.

 Polonius wrote:
I think, at some point, when a kickstarter is delayed, you have the same right to complain as a person with a crappy car has when it finally breaks down for good. It sucks, and it can really be a pain in the ass, but it's not like it was outside of the realm of possiblity.

Wait, what? What about the kitchen analogy you gave a few posts up? Are you suggesting that once a backer hands over money to a KS project they relinquish all rights to complain when hiccups occur? And I don't mean minor hiccups like "Oh, we missed our June deadline but are shipping in August" but major hiccups like "Hey guise! Our box maker just said 'nope' to our order so things are on hold again!"- well over a year after the campaign ended?

 Polonius wrote:
That they deliver at all is a minor miracle.

I disagree with this so much it hurts. Most backers aren't playing roulette or the Lotto and gambling that we will get our product. Most backers are backing projects that supposedly have been researched, the vendors vetted, business plans are in place, and the target goals seem reasonable because we are told that the logistics are understood and accounted for. Sure, delays happen. But this box delay has happened more than once with this Kickstarter and that is ridiculous, so people are rightly miffed. Suggesting that all Kickstarters are a futile hope against inevitable failure is a little odd.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

 Polonius wrote:
I think, at some point, when a kickstarter is delayed, you have the same right to complain as a person with a crappy car has when it finally breaks down for good. It sucks, and it can really be a pain in the ass, but it's not like it was outside of the realm of possiblity.

Wait, what? What about the kitchen analogy you gave a few posts up? Are you suggesting that once a backer hands over money to a KS project they relinquish all rights to complain when hiccups occur? And I don't mean minor hiccups like "Oh, we missed our June deadline but are shipping in August" but major hiccups like "Hey guise! Our box maker just said 'nope' to our order so things are on hold again!"- well over a year after the campaign ended?

Not only did I not say that, I actually said the opposite in the very thing you posted. Everybody has a right to complain about whatever they want.

What I'm saying is that there's a upper limit to the sympathy you can expect. It's a couple hundred bucks, its hobby related, and it's notoriously common. Beyond a "yeah, that sucks, bro" I don't think you can expect much.

 Polonius wrote:
That they deliver at all is a minor miracle.

I disagree with this so much it hurts. Most backers aren't playing roulette or the Lotto and gambling that we will get our product. Most backers are backing projects that supposedly have been researched, the vendors vetted, business plans are in place, and the target goals seem reasonable because we are told that the logistics are understood and accounted for. Sure, delays happen. But this box delay has happened more than once with this Kickstarter and that is ridiculous, so people are rightly miffed. Suggesting that all Kickstarters are a futile hope against inevitable failure is a little odd.

Maybe miracle was the wrong word. I would say mildly surprising.

What's worrying is that you say " Most backers are backing projects that supposedly have been researched, the vendors vetted, business plans are in place, and the target goals seem reasonable because we are told that the logistics are understood and accounted for. " A company can't vet itself. that's the job of the consumer. Kickstarters are not a simple transaction.

 Polonius wrote:
I think, at some point, when a kickstarter is delayed, you have the same right to complain as a person with a
What I'm saying is that there's a upper limit to the sympathy you can expect. It's a couple hundred bucks, its hobby related, and it's notoriously common. Beyond a "yeah, that sucks, bro" I don't think you can expect much.

Not having a legitimate complaint brushed aside as petulant behavior is what I am expecting.

 Polonius wrote:
What's worrying is that you say " Most backers are backing projects that supposedly have been researched, the vendors vetted, business plans are in place, and the target goals seem reasonable because we are told that the logistics are understood and accounted for. " A company can't vet itself. that's the job of the consumer. Kickstarters are not a simple transaction.

That is vague phrasing on my part. Kickstarter campaign creators should have already vetted the companies they will be using in their campaigns so that they do not run into problems campaigns are currently having with WGF, or SWM with this box company, or like Torn Armor had with Defiance. Obviously a company can't vet itself, but if can vet its suppliers.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Oh look. Another Kickstarter is late. Also, water is wet and the Pope is Catholic.

Uh, no. It was late last year. This is "it ships next week" turning into "it would hjave shipped last week but now we have no boxes and we don't know what we're going to do". Which is slightly different.

You should see the Raging Heroes thread. It makes this one look like a bunch of hippies singing around a camp fire.

Behold the power of boobs.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Most backers aren't playing roulette or the Lotto and gambling that we will get our product. Most backers are backing projects that supposedly have been researched, the vendors vetted, business plans are in place, and the target goals seem reasonable because we are told that the logistics are understood and accounted for.

If that were the case, they wouldn't need Kickstarter, they could just go to the bank and get a business loan, because they've got all the documentation lined up to a T. As mentioned upthread, a lot of these are hindsight mistakes, because really, who'd think that getting boxes was so hard? Until they've actually been through the process of arranging for thousands of cardboard shippers, and had the vendor they thought was on the ball suddenly say, 'oh sorry, can't do it after all.'

Someone upthread mentioned U-line. Probably a joke, but in case they were serious... ordering a flat of 25 boxes for your small office use? Easy. Getting them to China? If you've never dealt with the world of Commercial Invoices, Packing Lists, and HTS codes, it's suddenly a lot harder.

 Bookwrack wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Most backers aren't playing roulette or the Lotto and gambling that we will get our product. Most backers are backing projects that supposedly have been researched, the vendors vetted, business plans are in place, and the target goals seem reasonable because we are told that the logistics are understood and accounted for.

If that were the case, they wouldn't need Kickstarter, they could just go to the bank and get a business loan, because they've got all the documentation lined up to a T. As mentioned upthread, a lot of these are hindsight mistakes, because really, who'd think that getting boxes was so hard? Until they've actually been through the process of arranging for thousands of cardboard shippers, and had the vendor they thought was on the ball suddenly say, 'oh sorry, can't do it after all.'

That was in response to Polonius stating that Kickstarters delivering anything at all were miracles. I contended that most backers don't see it in that light and instead seek out projects that they have faith will deliver, and he even admitted that "miracle" was the wrong word to use. That faith on the backer's part is largely from reassurances given by the project creator during the campaign.

So, let's look at this Kickstarter's Risks and Challenges blurb:

We've done our best to minimize this as far as possible, and we are always happy to refund pledges if for some totally unforeseen reason the product can't be delivered at all.

In this case we've already absorbed the cost of the side-core mother mold, and the first proof of concept tile, and have completed the CAD files for the first full set of 16 "Scrap Yard" tiles -- and we see the risks as minimal at this point.

The biggest challenge is in the delivery time for additional themes resulting in possible stretch goals. We already have concept art for several options, however, and 3D artists standing by to help us turn those into reality.

We are also working with an established factory that has produced, and delivered, on multiple projects for the gaming industry, including several launched via Kickstarter. They are standing by and have dedicated tooling time for the project.

That bold part is what I think most backers look for as reassurance that the project creator has done their homework. When major hiccups occur, like not having boxes suddenly when you are ready to ship, it casts doubt on the project creator's ability to marshal the right vendors for their project. Granted that blurb is directly related to WGF and not about the box maker, and perhaps us backers were naive for not asking, "Okay, but what about the boxes? What about the tape? Have you sourced everything needed to make this project a reality?" but I think you could also make an argument that SWM's assurances in the Risks and Challenges statement imply that all facets of the production process have been looked at and scrutinized and things were ready to go. And if they weren't WGF is there to assist, since they are familiar with this type of product development. They clearly weren't and we know why now, but it doesn't change the fact that some of us feel a little angry that such a major component of the fulfillment process went to hell at the last minute.

 Bookwrack wrote:

You should see the Raging Heroes thread. It makes this one look like a bunch of hippies singing around a camp fire.

Behold the power of boobs.

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Most backers aren't playing roulette or the Lotto and gambling that we will get our product. Most backers are backing projects that supposedly have been researched, the vendors vetted, business plans are in place, and the target goals seem reasonable because we are told that the logistics are understood and accounted for.

If that were the case, they wouldn't need Kickstarter, they could just go to the bank and get a business loan, because they've got all the documentation lined up to a T. As mentioned upthread, a lot of these are hindsight mistakes, because really, who'd think that getting boxes was so hard? Until they've actually been through the process of arranging for thousands of cardboard shippers, and had the vendor they thought was on the ball suddenly say, 'oh sorry, can't do it after all.'

Someone upthread mentioned U-line. Probably a joke, but in case they were serious... ordering a flat of 25 boxes for your small office use? Easy. Getting them to China? If you've never dealt with the world of Commercial Invoices, Packing Lists, and HTS codes, it's suddenly a lot harder.

They wouldn't though would they? Look at Mantic. They have made literally fething millions of dollars, but still they keep coming. I backed their KOW one years ago, what did that pull in, 3 million?

And still they keep coming, again and again and again. KS is clearly preferable to bank loans to all kinds of people and businesses.

I agree with DT, I don't think the detractors have been particulary rude or anything either, I think their annoyance is entirely fair and reasonable.

KOW did $354k.

Hey, he's off by a decimal place. It's Kickstarter

(Note, this is responding to Cyporiean, nothing to do with SW!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On topic, no one is saying the complaints aren't valid (or no one reasonable). But, they told us about it and are working on it. I can only be so upset... the other option to WGF was to not get Tablescapes done at all, as I can't imagine any other producer being able to pull it off.

In the end, I just want my board, and I'll be happy as I'm sure Secret Weapon will be! There does come a point where a long enough delay makes the product no longer useful to me, but this is not there yet (or even close really) in my case.

 Portugal Jones wrote:

Until you do something like this, it's hard to wrap your head around just how many things can go wrong, and how much is obvious in hindsight, but inexperience means you never saw it coming. A customer I was working with was bringing a new product to market, and had very specialized packaging needs, and this was a big company and a big project that already had a couple tens of millions of USD sunk into production. They thought they had the packaging thing all wrapped up, until abruptly they were told the volumes they were requesting were too much for the packaging company to handle, which ending up screwing everything up about getting it out the door by three months.

There's book knowledge of how everything is expected to work, and what might go wrong, and then the actual boots on the ground, direct experience of a process. The former never completely prepares you for the latter.

Well said and absolutely correct. There's a perspective from both sides of the fence. and poo-poohing either side's concerns or reasons isn't super useful. Hopefully SWM and WGF use this experience to make sure things like times and quantities etc are locked down well in advance in future.

 Cyporiean wrote:
KOW did $354k.

Oh yeah I was thinking of Bones or something.. what else have I backed? Sedition Wars, KOW, and some terrain, I think thats about it.

The point is, Mantic are now in the millions, dreadball broke a million too right? And they did Deadzone, feth knows what else.

gak, Reaper hit 3 million, they were already established, and didn't Warmachine do a Kickstarter?

The point was perfectly sound, no big companies do not just "go and get a bank loan" they fething love Kickstarter!

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:

It has killed any interest in backing future projects that are working with WGF, and if/when SWM does another Tablescapes KS I won't be a part of it if the same vendors are in the manufacturing chain. Balls have been dropped, deadlines have been missed, and yet, backers are supposed to just sit around and hold hands and bask in the magical glow of crowdfunding? bs. We are allowed to be disappointed, and we should be allowed to vent that frustration online without some ridiculous finger wagging and shaming by a minority of backers who either don't care, are too burdened with other WIP projects to notice the delay, or offer some other contrived reasons for why the rest of us are being ridiculous, "petulant" whiners.

Also very well put (including the snipped parts). A very reasonable look at the other side of the coin. And literally, those who supply the coin. What gets my goat in this campaign and others (RH, etc) aren't so much the delays, but those who come in to belittle the people who are disappointed at setbacks and delays and elements of campaigns that are poorly run or organised. Calling someone "petulant" for expressing disappointment at a new delay announced after the "this is the final delay - for reals, yo!" in a campaign approaching a year out and 8+ months overdue with the excuse "because kickstarter" is using poor reasoning at best, and, well, a few other things I won't say on Dakka at worst.

 RiTides wrote:
Hey, he's off by a decimal place. It's Kickstarter

(Note, this is responding to Cyporiean, nothing to do with SW!)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On topic, no one is saying the complaints aren't valid (or no one reasonable). But, they told us about it and are working on it. I can only be so upset... the other option to WGF was to not get Tablescapes done at all, as I can't imagine any other producer being able to pull it off.

In the end, I just want my board, and I'll be happy as I'm sure Secret Weapon will be! There does come a point where a long enough delay makes the product no longer useful to me, but this is not there yet (or even close really) in my case.

Yeah thats fair do's but as I said, I don't think DT or anyone else has been particularly vitriolic anyway.

On Indiegogo I backed Pirate Goblins, and they were over a year late. I also backed Felix fething whats his names dwarf thing, and I don't even know how late that is now.

Anyway, that did it for me, I haven't backed a KS or anything similar for about two years.