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 master of ordinance wrote:
Its not just that, the limit of an 18" range on said orders (or 12" for PCS officers) means that you essentially have to clump up all your Infantry around the officers or risk them ending up unale to function at all. It forces the Guard to play even more of a static gunline than we already were.
Why advance? All you will be doing is isolating your already weak Infantry farther away from the units which can actually make them do stuff and you will be getting closer to melee range at the same time.

This is why they need to change vox-casters to allow any unit with one to take orders from any command squad with a vox caster themselves. I don't get how radio technology isn't reflected by increased range.

 Grimskul wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Its not just that, the limit of an 18" range on said orders (or 12" for PCS officers) means that you essentially have to clump up all your Infantry around the officers or risk them ending up unale to function at all. It forces the Guard to play even more of a static gunline than we already were.
Why advance? All you will be doing is isolating your already weak Infantry farther away from the units which can actually make them do stuff and you will be getting closer to melee range at the same time.

This is why they need to change vox-casters to allow any unit with one to take orders from any command squad with a vox caster themselves. I don't get how radio technology isn't reflected by increased range.

Exactly. Its tech we had in the 20's/30's

The way vox casters work now kinda reminds me of 2 cans attached by a string, go too far and it suddenly doesn't work. It should be across the table (assuming they both a have a vox caster) or maybe 18" if both squads don't have a vox caster (to represent the limited range on com beads)

Orders themselves should also be more widespread to some extent. To allow some measure of MSU and not require the guard player to blob up to effectively use orders, stuff like FRF! SRF! shouldn't be limited to just one squad of guardsmen going all out. It should be a general order for all guard infantry with lasguns that have to take a Ld test to see if they can carry it out. Obviously the other more powerful orders would have to be more limited but given the fact that guys like Skitarii have free one use boosters, SM have chapter tactics, and so on I think guard deserve a little more oomph from orders at the very least, given that they lost doctrines.

If you're worried about being assaulted, why are you advancing anyway?

I do think that making the vox caster an infinite range for orders to units that also have a vox caster fixes that problem somewhat (especially for veteran based armies), and/or letting infantry sergeants getting a very limited amount of orders than can give to their own unit. There are certainly plenty of fast moving elements in the guard and it's better when you can use those elements to their fullest potential.

Conversely, limited range on needed special abilities has been a something of a weakness for horde armies (Orks with the KFF or synapse with Tyranids) especially compared to psyker powers which are always better. It's a question of if that's intentional to the theme of the army, and while guard does have those mobile element they're still a slow army at heart and just dumping that completely makes it feel less like Imperial Guard. Mechanics should try to work around those themes rather than just ape what other armies have because they work better.

 Luke_Prowler wrote:
If you're worried about being assaulted, why are you advancing anyway?

I do think that making the vox caster an infinite range for orders to units that also have a vox caster fixes that problem somewhat (especially for veteran based armies), and/or letting infantry sergeants getting a very limited amount of orders than can give to their own unit. There are certainly plenty of fast moving elements in the guard and it's better when you can use those elements to their fullest potential.

Conversely, limited range on needed special abilities has been a something of a weakness for horde armies (Orks with the KFF or synapse with Tyranids) especially compared to psyker powers which are always better. It's a question of if that's intentional to the theme of the army, and while guard does have those mobile element they're still a slow army at heart and just dumping that completely makes it feel less like Imperial Guard. Mechanics should try to work around those themes rather than just ape what other armies have because they work better.

I think the issue is that IG are supposed to be a sledgehammer to the SM's scalpel, but so far this has not been translated very well (if at all) on the tabletop. Guard can't bring their proper numbers to bear with the power creep that has skyrocketed over the years and have to resort to using veterans spamming special weapons to get the job done. The tanks don't have the firepower to compensate for their lack of mobility and price. I think that if the rigid chain of command were to give some serious benefits to mainline troops and potentially some guard vehicles it could represent that once the order is given that it only takes the guard some momentum before they hit home hard, the command squads could functionally be like synapse units in that sense by being the lynchpin of the guard army. Unfortunately, until they revamp the order system, command squads are just too limited and fragile to be anything more than a slight force multiplier and SW spammers.

A sledgehammer? Most of the time we feel more like a damn inflatable mallet.
Sure, we look big and impressive but we dont actually hurt anything we hit and even a single poke will destroy us utterly.

I just wish I could run non-blob infantry platoons and NOT be shooting myself in the foot by doing it. I HATE running a blob.

 Grimskul wrote:


I think the issue is that IG are supposed to be a sledgehammer to the SM's scalpel, but so far this has not been translated very well (if at all) on the tabletop. Guard can't bring their proper numbers to bear with the power creep that has skyrocketed over the years and have to resort to using veterans spamming special weapons to get the job done. The tanks don't have the firepower to compensate for their lack of mobility and price. I think that if the rigid chain of command were to give some serious benefits to mainline troops and potentially some guard vehicles it could represent that once the order is given that it only takes the guard some momentum before they hit home hard, the command squads could functionally be like synapse units in that sense by being the lynchpin of the guard army. Unfortunately, until they revamp the order system, command squads are just too limited and fragile to be anything more than a slight force multiplier and SW spammers.

^ THIS

 drunken0elf wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:


I think the issue is that IG are supposed to be a sledgehammer to the SM's scalpel, but so far this has not been translated very well (if at all) on the tabletop. Guard can't bring their proper numbers to bear with the power creep that has skyrocketed over the years and have to resort to using veterans spamming special weapons to get the job done. The tanks don't have the firepower to compensate for their lack of mobility and price. I think that if the rigid chain of command were to give some serious benefits to mainline troops and potentially some guard vehicles it could represent that once the order is given that it only takes the guard some momentum before they hit home hard, the command squads could functionally be like synapse units in that sense by being the lynchpin of the guard army. Unfortunately, until they revamp the order system, command squads are just too limited and fragile to be anything more than a slight force multiplier and SW spammers.

^ THIS

Agreed. I think much of that could be solved through formations that make that kind of synergy more tangible. I like orders, but when you consider the bonuses that certain armies just get for free and without having to take any tests, orders as a system just seem lacking. Orders should just work until the Company Command is killed and the chain of command deteriorates.

Even the largest IG army is simply a small bit of an army that campaigns in the millions. I think abilities like the Master of Ordnance brings should be available to platoon command squads; it would help to emphasize platoons functioning as part of a larger army in contrast to veterans that are effectively autonomous skirmishers.

There's also just fundamental problems with the functionality of the IG's signature units and weapons.

Non-skimmer, non-Fast vehicles simply do not have an adequate lifespan They're MC's without saves, and have largely poor mobility. The army relies heavily on these units however.

Likewise, the IG army relies heavily on blast weapons. Unfortunately, blast weapons aren't what really works in this edition. Weapons like Battlecannons are very scary against clustered, low-T/single-wound infantry in the open. Against other tanks, MC's, medium/high-T multi-wound units, flyers, etc, (i.e. the stuff that works rather well in 7E), such weapons are painfully inadequate.

 aka_mythos wrote:
Agreed. I think much of that could be solved through formations that make that kind of synergy more tangible. I like orders, but when you consider the bonuses that certain armies just get for free and without having to take any tests, orders as a system just seem lacking. Orders should just work until the Company Command is killed and the chain of command deteriorates.

Now there's a good idea. All of the orders available to all units inherently - the CCS and PCS let you forego the tests for those orders.

 Vaktathi wrote:
There's also just fundamental problems with the functionality of the IG's signature units and weapons.

Non-skimmer, non-Fast vehicles simply do not have an adequate lifespan They're MC's without saves, and have largely poor mobility. The army relies heavily on these units however.

Likewise, the IG army relies heavily on blast weapons. Unfortunately, blast weapons aren't what really works in this edition. Weapons like Battlecannons are very scary against clustered, low-T/single-wound infantry in the open. Against other tanks, MC's, medium/high-T multi-wound units, flyers, etc, (i.e. the stuff that works rather well in 7E), such weapons are painfully inadequate.

Dropping the cost of those slow moving, non skimmer vehicles could help with this as it goes with the quantity feel, or something like the old conquer rules, also on the theme of un-told trillions at the emperors disposal dropping the basic cost of a trooper/squad would help as what can lass carbines really kill unless you've got 250 of them?

 Scott-S6 wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
Agreed. I think much of that could be solved through formations that make that kind of synergy more tangible. I like orders, but when you consider the bonuses that certain armies just get for free and without having to take any tests, orders as a system just seem lacking. Orders should just work until the Company Command is killed and the chain of command deteriorates.

Now there's a good idea. All of the orders available to all units inherently - the CCS and PCS let you forego the tests for those orders.

And IF it needs a downside, when the CCS is destroyed there could be some sort of LD test taken by the PCS to maintain order.

The fact that I see IG players taking their CCS and PCS squads loading them into Chimeras and using them as suicidal special weapon squads has never sat right by me. It seems silly because even if its a lead from the front mentality that their trying to represent, with such a bureaucratic command structure it'd be a dereliction of duty to abandon a position that supports their full company in favor of only supporting a small detachment such as what a standard IG armies represents.

I would like our standard infantry to get some sort of buff. I despise running blobs of Guardsmen. If I wanted to run giant units like that I'd play Orks. I would like my basic infantry squads to be decent enough where I can run each one separately without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the foot.

 War Kitten wrote:
I would like our standard infantry to get some sort of buff. I despise running blobs of Guardsmen. If I wanted to run giant units like that I'd play Orks. I would like my basic infantry squads to be decent enough where I can run each one separately without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the foot.

This. When you have the kinds of crud which are flying around in this day and edition the average Guardsman and his flashlight/tissuepaper just does not make the cut. For the love of all which is steelbally give us SOMETHING PLEASE!

 master of ordinance wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
I would like our standard infantry to get some sort of buff. I despise running blobs of Guardsmen. If I wanted to run giant units like that I'd play Orks. I would like my basic infantry squads to be decent enough where I can run each one separately without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the foot.

This. When you have the kinds of crud which are flying around in this day and edition the average Guardsman and his flashlight/tissuepaper just does not make the cut. For the love of all which is steelbally give us SOMETHING PLEASE!

I still don't think the guardsmen are the problem. For the points, they are fine.

Martel732 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 War Kitten wrote:
I would like our standard infantry to get some sort of buff. I despise running blobs of Guardsmen. If I wanted to run giant units like that I'd play Orks. I would like my basic infantry squads to be decent enough where I can run each one separately without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the foot.

This. When you have the kinds of crud which are flying around in this day and edition the average Guardsman and his flashlight/tissuepaper just does not make the cut. For the love of all which is steelbally give us SOMETHING PLEASE!

I still don't think the guardsmen are the problem. For the points, they are fine.

For the points...? If they cost 3 points each I would agree with you.

I think you are definitely guilty of hyperbole on this matter. Under typical battle conditions, guardsmen are more resilient/pt and have more dakka/pt than marines. The problem is that vehicles are now a dumpster fire in 7th. Except Eldar skimmers.

Martel732 wrote:
I think you are definitely guilty of hyperbole on this matter. Under typical battle conditions, guardsmen are more resilient/pt and have more dakka/pt than marines. The problem is that vehicles are now a dumpster fire in 7th. Except Eldar skimmers.

*Laughs bitterly* yeah, so resilient that almost every basic weapon out there wounds us on a 3+ or better and completely ignores our armour. Of course we do get a lot of shots but when did you ever hear anyone say 'Lasguns, feth no those things are scary'. When an entire section has to FRFSRF just to kill one opponent you know there is something wrong.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I think you are definitely guilty of hyperbole on this matter. Under typical battle conditions, guardsmen are more resilient/pt and have more dakka/pt than marines. The problem is that vehicles are now a dumpster fire in 7th. Except Eldar skimmers.

*Laughs bitterly* yeah, so resilient that almost every basic weapon out there wounds us on a 3+ or better and completely ignores our armour. Of course we do get a lot of shots but when did you ever hear anyone say 'Lasguns, feth no those things are scary'. When an entire section has to FRFSRF just to kill one opponent you know there is something wrong.

I said per point. This is a concept that you seem to completely not understand. Also, cover is free in this game. Use it, and suddenly guardsmen have triple the efficiency of a marine against plasma and melta and six times the efficiency against grav.

There is also a very important weapon that does NOT ignore your armor: the scatterlaser. Being efficient against the most unfair weapon in the game is a huge advantage.

Lasguns provide 66% of the dakka of a boltgun against T4 targets, and 100% of the dakka against T6 targets. AP 5 rarely helps, because of the nature of most lists and because of cover.

Look at what IG are paying big points for and getting nothing: the vehicles. None of the IG vehicles are efficient in my view except the Wyvern and maybe Manticore.

I posted a better point range for vehicles earlier. The other fix I have recently added to my houserules is having smoke launchers activate when a unit fires at the tank with no effect on shooting the following turn.

It makes NO sense that a single switch the pilot could flick with one hand would totally eliminate the ability for the gunners to shoot. Let it be reactionary and it would help the vehicles move forward for a bit without being totally helpless when doing so.

 War Kitten wrote:
I would like our standard infantry to get some sort of buff. I despise running blobs of Guardsmen. If I wanted to run giant units like that I'd play Orks. I would like my basic infantry squads to be decent enough where I can run each one separately without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the foot.

i suppose you could make orders given by a PCS universal to the entire platoon? Or may make an order given by the PCS to one Infantry squad apply to all 2-5?

Tbh I don't really like using blobs, but I do like how effective they can be.

What about a leman russ battle tank that can fire a super heated or high explosive round that is strength d but rolls gets hot and cannot fire if it has moved that turn

What if just like the baneblade variants you could leave off sponsons to instead buy a side armor upgrade for Russ tanks.

 aka_mythos wrote:
What if just like the baneblade variants you could leave off sponsons to instead buy a side armor upgrade for Russ tanks.

That would work just fine: AV 14/14 without sponsons and AV 14/13 with sponsons.

 aka_mythos wrote:
What if just like the baneblade variants you could leave off sponsons to instead buy a side armor upgrade for Russ tanks.

Oh yes please, though I can just imagine the reaction from certain opponents of mine - "AV14/14 Leman Russ OP waaaaaaaaa....."

 master of ordinance wrote:

 aka_mythos wrote:
What if just like the baneblade variants you could leave off sponsons to instead buy a side armor upgrade for Russ tanks.

Oh yes please, though I can just imagine the reaction from certain opponents of mine - "AV14/14 Leman Russ OP waaaaaaaaa....."

Heh, they already call Russes OP.

I have a guy that regularly bitches about Vanquishers ffs.

I do find russes a pain at times (mostly as I both have a lot of multi-wound T4 3+ models, and only have one really effective tactic against heavy armor, melta-cide), but they are anything but OP. Maybe if you dropped them in price by half or something.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
I do find russes a pain at times (mostly as I both have a lot of multi-wound T4 3+ models, and only have one really effective tactic against heavy armor, melta-cide), but they are anything but OP. Maybe if you dropped them in price by half or something.

The current points cost of a Leman Russ is only acceptable if it includes the hull mounted Lascannon and sponson weapons.