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An interesting note, that I am not sure is in the original thread, is that if the rumours of a 4+ cover save for shooting through troops is true, grots may have been designed with that knowledge. Here comes a cheap unit that gives all your boyz units behind a 4+ cover save. Would make them a little bit better than not worth taking at all...

If that's true, then when 5th edition comes out people will
have to re-evaluate available tactica.

Toreador wrote:An interesting note, that I am not sure is in the original thread, is that if the rumours of a 4+ cover save for shooting through troops is true, grots may have been designed with that knowledge. Here comes a cheap unit that gives all your boyz units behind a 4+ cover save. Would make them a little bit better than not worth taking at all...

I think there is no question that Grots were written with the knowledge of the rules in 5th edition. There are other indications that the Ork codex was written specifically for 5th edition such as Ghazhkull's adamantium skull referencing getting a charging bonus when the 4th edition rules don't allow that for slow & purposeful models but the 5th edition S&P does.

I would think that in 5th edition at least one big units of grots would be nearly mandatory in any footslogging Ork army.

Toreador wrote:An interesting note, that I am not sure is in the original thread, is that if the rumours of a 4+ cover save for shooting through troops is true, grots may have been designed with that knowledge. Here comes a cheap unit that gives all your boyz units behind a 4+ cover save. Would make them a little bit better than not worth taking at all...

Oh yeah, and you're perfectly capable of editing the tactica if it comes to that.

While it makes them far better than where they're at now, they don't really shine up all that much I think. You're still looking at something that you're going to have to max out on in order for them to not run away, and 30 Grots + mandatory gubbinz = 20 Ork Boyz, and those Orks aren't T2 things that die extra fast.

I think the KFF's existence mitigates this mostly for the Boyz, but certainly when the new rules hit I'll be all about updating the 'Takktica for 5th Edition.

I think the cover save rule will be huge. I've been building a Deathskull themed army and have two sizable Loota squads. If I can get cover saves by the Orks in front, this can go a long way in getting good lanes of fire.

However, a downside I keep finding is the Mek w/ SAG. i really want to use him, but he'll almost assuredly end up in some unit as protection. He may end up sitting in a Battlewagon (also sitting in cover) for some type of protection and can shoot freely at whatever target I deem necessary.

As far as tactics for grots, I have 2 meks with SAGs, and have 2 squads of 19 grots (with the 1 herda) for him to sit in. For 5th edition, that means he can't be targeted and with the 60" range, they can sit well back and take little incoming fire. Need to cause 6 casualties for the first morale check, and if someone's shooting that many lascannons at a unit of grots to get rid of the SAG, life is good.

Total cost of the unit is about 150 points - I consider it not a bad deal for an ordanance weapon.

Yeah, that was my thought. To protect those units like tankbustas (heh) and lootas, a minimum sized squad could be useful for the points. 40pts isn't much to spend to give a small measure of protection to those units behind it. Quite a few times I have used Ravenwing bikers to tie up lootas on the second turn (sometimes first), this helps mitigate that, and also can give you instant cover. With infiltrators and scouts having a possibility of coming in behind you, a screen of grots could cover a lot more space to limit what they could do. Slugga boyz are better, but for the cost the grots can cover a lot more space.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:While it makes them far better than where they're at now, they don't really shine up all that much I think. You're still looking at something that you're going to have to max out on in order for them to not run away, and 30 Grots + mandatory gubbinz = 20 Ork Boyz, and those Orks aren't T2 things that die extra fast.

I think the KFF's existence mitigates this mostly for the Boyz, but certainly when the new rules hit I'll be all about updating the 'Takktica for 5th Edition.

Another thing to consider about Grots is that they allow you to free up the Big Mek KFF HQ slot. Footslogging hordes love to have either two Warpheads, one Warphead & Ghazhkull, etc.

When you have to use one of those slots for a Mek with KFF you lose the abilities those unique combinations give you.

Including Grots would allow you to maintain a cover save for your advancing Orks while still taking two non-KFF mek HQ choices.


Also, it is a bit incorrect to directly compare a full Grot squad vs. 20 Ork boyz. The reason for this is because in 5th edition rules the grots will provide a 4+ cover save to the models behind them and unlike the old grot rules a successful saving throw will NOT cause the Ork player to remove a grot model; instead no models will die when this happens.

20 Ork boyz "screening" more Orks behind isn't a choice/issue for opponents. They simply shoot the 20 boyz in front and no Ork unit gets a cover save. With Grots, you cause the opponent to make a tough choice. Do they shoot the Grots in front, in which case the 3 point cost of a grot by all means is worth it, or do they shoot the real threat of the Orks behind suffering the 4+ cover save?

A 4+ cover save is better than a 5+ KFF save, the grots provide another big scoring Troops choice that is very cheap and if your opponent starts shooting grots you can almost guarantee that your Ork mobs will reach them relatively unmolested.

I think at least one mob of 28 Grots and two slavers will be a great choice in 5th edition and perhaps even two of these units in an all infantry Ork horde would be a great choice, IMHO.

So... are there plans to finish this off with the rest of the codex? I am kind fo looking at building orks soon and Im interested in hearing about the other two sections.

I'm curious about the comments re mounting the Warboss on a bike. It seems to be written with 4th Edition in mind with its rules restricting targetting of IC's.

Now that they can be targeted if they aren't within 2" of a unit, does that make the bike mounted Boss pointless? If you stick him with an infantry unit he'll slog across the battlefield. The only option would be to put him with a unit of bikes which would get very expensive.

What do you think?

Even if the warboss is moving his slow speed, the Ability to move fast when needed and the +1 toughness makes the bike worth it.

I mean, I am having trouble justifying a Warboss in anything but Mega armor or a bike. In a Trukk, he is getting a ride so Mega armor. If I am going to skimp out on points and put the dude on foot, I probably would rather take a Big Mek in almost every capacity because of the KFF.

And most times if I am going to benefit from the Nobs as troops, I am probably running a 5-man mega squad in a trukk or nob bikers.

I do have a unit of 9 cyborks which I will run as nobz, but even then I doubt my big choppa foot boss will ride with them.

I would like to hear of a tactic when a 'mini-boss' can be used effectively. I am sure there is one, I am not seeing it.

Venerable_Bede wrote:I'm curious about the comments re mounting the Warboss on a bike. It seems to be written with 4th Edition in mind with its rules restricting targetting of IC's.

Now that they can be targeted if they aren't within 2" of a unit, does that make the bike mounted Boss pointless? If you stick him with an infantry unit he'll slog across the battlefield. The only option would be to put him with a unit of bikes which would get very expensive.

What do you think?

Yes, the article was written for 4th edition and has not been updated for 5th edition.

I agree that the new rules make a biker Boss much less desirable. You pretty much either need a Biker unit to run him with or a vehicle to hide him behind, neither of which are that attractive.

Is there any chance of an updating for this?

As a starting ork player, I'd find it invaluable, it seems such a waste to let this excellent article die before it's time after so much work went into it.

I have a couple of things to add, although I am not an experienced Ork player w/ the new Codex.

1) Low Competitive Tactic.
If you already have a Battlewagon with a Killkannon, you can put a squad of 6 Burna Boyz inside. For 90 points you get 3 Burnas, 3 Kustom Mega Blastas. It drives forward a couple times firing the Killkannon and the Mega Blastas. Then they get out and shoot something with the Burnas. If it breaks, the Meks fix it.

Basically it is not a Burna squad, it is a Mek squad that just happens to have 3 Burnas in it. The only real weakness is the BS2 on the Mega Blasters but you are still going to get a hit.

2) A Semi-Competitive to Low Competitive Tactic.
I don't know how good this is. The Big Mek w/ KFF has both a Bosspole and the 5+ cover, which is exactly what Meganobz need to help them be more competitive. The KFF gives them a Terminator-esque invulnerable, and the Bosspole helps them re-roll their morale. For cheaper than say a pimped out Warboss or a Special Character. Win. Basically you are taking advantage of the fact that a Big Mek carries a Bosspole. It Fields things, it Bosspoles, it has a S5 I4 A3+1 Burna on the charge. What's not to love. He's even got a Stikkbomb. I am going to say Semi-Competitive.

3) Lastly, what I would call an H.B.M.C. Nob Squad, although I don't know if other posters have posted same. Nobz with Big Choppas. He posted a 10 man squad, I like a similiar squad with 6 Nobs. For 201 points you get 6 guys who are WS5 S7 I4 A3+1 4+ w/ Stikkbombs on the charge (killing 4.44 MEQ). Half the price of 10 Meganobz and comparable to 20 Slugga Boyz w/ a Power Klaw Nob and Stikkbombs. Only they fit in a Trukk and don't take up the whole table. Classy. Besides, there are cool new Forge World models coming out.

I don't know how I would rate the Nob Squad but I would say higher than 'Poor'. Call it Semi-Competitive. But this is just Theory-hammer.

That, and the article needs to be updated to take into account Running, for example Kans and Dreds. I don't mind doing it if noone else wants to. I can do it tomorrow, as a matter of fact. Article Mod?

That, and Grots are crap. T2 w/ no Mob rule and if they roll low for their running they slow down the whole army. You can even kill the Runtherd w/ Wound Allocation ... I think.

Things I would like to contribute, relative to how the tactica was written:

Nobz/ MANZ
while nobz I think are semi competative and MANZ competitive, their strength relative to each other is often and much debated here and on the Waaaagh.

I can attest to the fact that MANZ are ded ard with ghazghkull. there is particular synergy with the full 6" waaagh move to overcome their slow and purposeful. they carve a path across the board and when they get to an objective they can actually hold it now.

so their ability to be taken as troops with a warboss has increased in strength signifigantly.

I don't disagree with the 3 MANZ in trukk suicide unit, they're good, but 6 manz is really nasty and hard to deal with. add to that they are scoring units and I think they should be moved to competitive IF you are taking them as a troops choice. only semi-competitive if you are taking them as elites

however for regular nobz and MANZ, the way wound allocation works can make them really strong for a smart player. it is entirely possible to take 10 nobz with differing wargear, making it so that everyone must take 1 wound before you start losing models. for MANZ its pretty easy with the kombi weapons to sort them into 2-3 groups.

I think grots should be moved to competitive, for the reasons outlined above. they free up the KFF slot for a non mechanized army.

I think the SAG should be upgraded to competitive, because AP2 negates FNP now. even if the strength is variable, the bell curve would indicate an average of str 5-str 9 with deviation from there less likely but possible on two dice. more than enough to wound plague marines, nurgle daemons, etc.

as much as I hate to say it, deffkoptas are mediocre or worse. they just don't put out enough firepower for their points. killpoints makes them too costly to field, especially if you are using the ard boyz kill points system as it is right now.

burna boyz are fun, but a glass hammer and no where near as consistent as snikrot or lootas. so I'd put them as fun or semi-competitive.

shoota boyz in trukks are better now, since we aren't heading straight into combat. often a trukk will have to go to an objective and stay there. the boyz can sit in it or disembark. and the extra range and dice of the shootas makes them able to participate in the battle where as sluggas might sit there until charged or countercharging. I field them 50/50 with sluggas.

bikes, even with waaazdakka are nowhere near as good as they were since they cannot claim any objective more than 3" up in a ruin. (they're not jetbikes so cannot go up floors)

for battlewagons, they have increased importance if you want to field large slower mechanized rather than a trukk rush.

the strength of deffrollas goes up if we agree or it gets faq'd that a deffrolla works during a ram. (I think it does but this has been debated TO DEATH so lets not go back there)

the ability to get 20 shoota boyz to an objective unscathed is not to be overstated, however the fact that they can only move 7" and fire is a limitation

thats all I've got for now

NaZ

just a comment, Warbikes were good when they were Fearless. Now they are just I2/3 4+ w/ some shooting. Wee.

I am re-writing the Nobz section to be shorter/ more constructive.

I am dumping it on the Wasteland if it is not stored automatically.

Edit away guys!

Just make sure you take the time to get your points as concise as possible and also take the time to make sure they fit into the overall flow of the article, but besides that, the whole point of the article is to allow collaborative effort (provided it is well thought-out).


And yeah, it does need 5th edition updates. I fixed the HQ section a bit for 5th edition, but the rest hasn't been tackled yet.

I think I got it. I will re-check the formatting ... soonish. If someone else wants to, go ahead.