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Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut






 M0ff3l wrote:



 Alpharius wrote:
Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.


Fine if the mod I pm'd decides the same way then it will stay open. But it wont be updated by me thats for sure!


"Daddy doesn't agree so I will go to Mom," style argument. I think the mods are a hard working team and usually work together...

So anyways, are you going to write BTP about the two rhinos worth of bits and update us... or are you basically not concerned about it/throwing your hands up in the air about the whole thread? I feel like I am in total agreement with Lock's last post.

This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2014/11/28 02:04:22


My mostly terrain and Sons of Orar blog:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/568699.page#6349942
 whalemusic360 wrote:
Alph, I expect like 90 sets of orange/blue from you.
 
   
Made in us
Shas'o Commanding the Hunter Kadre




Missouri

TinBane wrote:
You think Shawn posted this entire thing, including mentioning the $60 price tag for "conversion" and freehand, and his dissatisfaction with it?

Seems like he's pulling the plug, because he's sick of people jumping to conclusions. I can kind of see his point: he got called a shill and a liar because he was going to wait, then called a shill and a liar because he posted an in progress comission, and now he's a fraud because you think he is Shawn.

I mean, I'm defending him, so I'm Shawn too?
Skink (from the other thread) was likely Shawn as well? I mean he didn't jump on the band-wagon with both feet, right?


I'M SHAWNACUS!

But yeah, I don't know about anyone else but I was genuinely interested in seeing how this turned out. Even though I'm admittedly not going to be changing my opinion of BTP despite the outcome.

If I ever do use a commission painting service I would at the very least expect a test model or some WIP shots along the way, kinda sucks that you won't even know if they followed your basic instructions and painted them in the desired color scheme until the entire product is finished and its too late to change. As for the rhinos, isn't that kind of ridiculous? I mean if all you needed was the havoc launcher bits you still wouldn't need to buy an entire rhino kit to get them, you can buy the accessory sprue from GW's website for $15. Which is still a little high in my opinion but still better than buying the full kit, I would think. It just sounds like they took the most expensive option to get those parts, and probably plan on building and painting those rhinos up to sell later at a nice profit.

 Desubot wrote:
Why isnt Slut Wars: The Sexpocalypse a real game dammit.


"It's easier to change the rules than to get good at the game." 
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block





TinBane wrote:
 Riquende wrote:
Shame this couldn't last, it was shaping up to be interesting. Kinda suspicious the plug just getting pulled like that. Maybe Shawn's holiday to the Netherlands has come to an end.


You think Shawn posted this entire thing, including mentioning the $60 price tag for "conversion" and freehand, and his dissatisfaction with it?

Seems like he's pulling the plug, because he's sick of people jumping to conclusions. I can kind of see his point: he got called a shill and a liar because he was going to wait, then called a shill and a liar because he posted an in progress comission, and now he's a fraud because you think he is Shawn.

I mean, I'm defending him, so I'm Shawn too?
Skink (from the other thread) was likely Shawn as well? I mean he didn't jump on the band-wagon with both feet, right?

If Shawn was going to bother posting something like this, it wouldn't have anything like the conversion fee. He would have quoted a couple of bucks for the havoc launcher.


I feel it is strange that "the plugg has been pulled" I mean what did the OP expect, This is not BTPs first scandal. And not the first customer they screwed over.. Threads about the poor quality off BTP have been around for years now... It is Just that "THIS TIME" the Community has just hade enough off it and are speaking out louder then ever....hehe.. And the OP clearly wants no negative feedback from this thread, but then he post things about the priceing etc that people find unacceptable, and the community speaks out.. And he pulls the plugg. If he wanted it to be an impartial review of their service, you can't pull the plugg, when negative stuff are found out and brought into the light.... You have to take the good with the bad... But the OP just wanted the GOOD to come out.. And stoped making uppdates when the desired effect dident happen... "STRANGE" is what i call that

Now the responses were not what he expected but seriously charging that kind of Chash and keeping stuff etc.. It just showed once again the true face of BTP...

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/28 04:10:57


 
   
Made in us
Veteran Knight Baron in a Crusader





OPs thread sounds like MWG review request. "We know there's a ton of valid, negative things to say about BTP but we only want to hear good things." Then pull the plug when you get more bad than good.
   
Made in gb
Fixture of Dakka







Came here for a review of BTP, got nothing. Thanks for wasting everyone's time.
 M0ff3l wrote:
 Alpharius wrote:
Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.
Fine if the mod I pm'd decides the same way then it will stay open.
Hahaha! Yeh that's how it works, 'play' them against each other and see how long your stay on Dakka is.

   
Made in au
Sacrifice to the Dark Gods



Melbourne, Australia

 zlayer77 wrote:

You have to take the good with the bad... But the OP just wanted the GOOD to come out.. And stoped making uppdates when the desired effect dident happen... "STRANGE" is what i call that

Now the responses were not what he expected but seriously charging that kind of Chash and keeping stuff etc.. It just showed once again the true face of BTP...


How sure are you?
Because the way I read the OP, he was more cautiously interested, rather than overly supporting of BTP.
I mean, he's downright critical himself, in the $60 conversion and freehand painting charges. You wouldn't even mention those kind of costs, if it was a promotional peice. Or alternatively, you'd pay $60 and get them to actually convert something awesome. Not get a few bits and magentise them on/stick them on.

Yeah, it does come across as a bit immature to blow the entire thing off because people on the internet are saying bad things.
   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut




 M0ff3l wrote:
ClockworkChaos wrote:
I suppose me and you are using neutral in different ways. I see it was during the review he looked at all the angles, and at the end gave a warning based on a neutral/fair/level-headed choice. You are using neutral more in the sense of an emotionless opinion less post. Both are correct just different views on the same thing.

You can have a neutral discussion but people are going to disagree on points and bring up points of concern they feel are important (such as costs). I concede your point that some have handled that very very badly but the mods seem to have reeled them in for the most part. The mods are doing a good job on this thread (thanks guys!) so I dont see the reason why it needs to be closed.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Alpharius wrote:
Threads that stay on topic and do not break the rules of the site tend to NOT get closed.


Fine if the mod I pm'd decides the same way then it will stay open. But it wont be updated by me thats for sure!


So your not going to update anything at all? Not even the results or the times that they give you more info?

I hope you realize that this lack of updates just gives reason to everyone who doubts BTP and gives an even more negative light for newcomers who see this. It makes it seem like someone who is using BTP had a concern arise really early in the process and then stopped posting anything about it. I suppose I would like to ask you from a purly objective standpoint (or as objective as you can make it), does that seem like what you have done has helped your point/actually portray an interaction with BTP or does this not make it look like all interactions with them are of poor quality? Just something to consider.


A neutral review, to me atleast, means: "form your own opinion, here is the info I have on the subject". Starting your review with take this as a warning comes with a pre-formed opinion.
Also I cant see how anyone would think I have concerns with BTP or any interaction with them, as that is not the reason I am closing this thread. I just feel like people are not using this thread for the purpose I intended for it. Oh and telling me that I am wasting my money didnt help either. And no I wont post any results or any more interaction, I wont even tell anyone if they give me a rhino kit or a refund of some sort. Im kinda done with DakkaDakka and its community. Most are really nice, but some people I just cant stand anymore.



Ok so we seem to take what we see as neutral as different. That is fair enough.

The problem is with closing it now is that new people will read the thread and see two things:
1) BTW doesn't do WIP shots or at least you didn't ask for them so GG on getting an idea of whats going on (aka unprofessional)
2) They overcharge for modifications (since you said you will not update if they will fix this, this is the only message we can take away)

By not clarifying your points you have both left a negative image of BTP and (reading the other comments) angered those who wanted you to do this in the first place.

I am saying this as someone who just lurked the thread and did not comment until you said you were stopping info. I do not care per say why you opened this thread (to be a white knight, for your own interest, or to help others ect), I just think you are closing it at a bad time for bad reasons. It just does not seem like a good idea.
   
Made in au
[MOD]
Not as Good as a Minion






Brisbane

Alpharius has the right of it, sorry for the late reply Moff

I wish I had time for all the game systems I own, let alone want to own... 
   
Made in pl
Sniping Gŭiláng





Warsaw

Hey M0ff3l, i was one of the silent lurkers of this thread and I'm really sorry you decided to leave it. I saw how you got called on tenbres thread and you showed,you have the balls to take up the challenge. For that alone you have my respect. I'm not going to express my opinion on the BTP issue because it's not relevant. I just hope you'll finish this and show us the results, because I'm really interested how it ends.

"Any problem caused by a tank, can be solved by a tank." - Peter Griffin

 
   
Made in ca
Posts with Authority




I'm from the future. The future of space

I was very interested in seeing the final results and think it's sad when people say they will do something and don't follow through.

I hope he reconsiders.

Balance in pick up games? Two people, each with their own goals for the game, design half a board game on their own without knowing the layout of the board and hope it all works out. Good luck with that. The faster you can find like minded individuals who want the same things from the game as you, the better. 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





@M0ff3l
Just ignore all discussion and comments here - don't read the comments, and don't respond.

If its a choice between the OP ignoring everybody and just posting project updates as and when he gets them; or rage quitting the thread and refusing to post further updates in response to the vitriol hes getting from a couple of people, I'd prefer the former.

I'd like to see the BTP process play out from start to finish.
   
Made in se
Been Around the Block





 frozenwastes wrote:
I was very interested in seeing the final results and think it's sad when people say they will do something and don't follow through.

I hope he reconsiders.


I think that the OP might have come the realisation that if he compleated this and showed the miniatures, they would get compared to other companies whos work is now on display (like frontline gaming for exmaple), and the end result would not bee in BTPs favor at all haha.. Better to stop posting now, before the end product gets totaly trashed by the comunity..

Facts at this point are that BTP just dont have the skills to pull off more then table top quality on the stuff.. And with all the, Inks and special paints that are now readily available to people, everyone can pull off that level of painting themselves at home without spending thousands of dollars having BTP do the same hehe

So people who are looking for someone ells to paint their stuff, falls into 2 mayor categories..

1: They dont have the time to paint it themselves, and then you want something cheap, and BTP is not cheap for the level of painting they do..
2: They want stuff painted better then they themselves can do, and then BTP do not have the skill to do that..

So it is clear that BTP is not a viable option for anyone hahah it is kinda sad..
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






I actually do not think that this thread should be closed until the OP actually gets his army back from BTP - he may be arguing that the point was to demonstrate a typical interaction with BTP - but the reality is that getting your painted army is also part of that interaction.

The OP may be annoyed that people are pointing out that the interaction that he is highlighting is rather poor - but even so, it is not yet the entirety of the interaction.

It is possible that the rest of that interaction will be 'And the OP got his Chaos Space Marines, and lived happily ever after'.

It is also possible that the rest of the interaction will be 'And the OP got his Chaos Space Marines, and was so disappointed that he rage quit the interwebs forever'.

Either way, the interaction with BTP is not over.

My suspicion is that the OP will get his models, and will be happy enough with them, but that a lot of folks (including me) will comment that they would not have been happy with that paint job.


*EDIT* I will admit that I know folks that chose Nurgle for their armies just because it is really hard to screw up a Nurgle paint job.... On the other hand, I really enjoyed converting and painting Nurgle vehicles... the danged things are just fun to do.

The Auld Grump

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/11/28 15:36:12


Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in ar
Dakka Veteran




Here is a novel idea, how about we wait to bash on btp until the project is actually either done or late?
   
Made in us
Posts with Authority






xxvaderxx wrote:
Here is a novel idea, how about we wait to bash on btp until the project is actually either done or late?
How about noticing that people are, for the most part, commenting on the portion of the interaction that has already happened, since we are talking about novelty? Hmmm?

People are commenting on BTP charging for a full kit, when they only use a small portion of the kit.

People are commenting that the amount of information that BTP is providing is less than ideal.

People are commenting that the amount of money charged for freehand painting seems excessive.

And people are commenting that the OP wants to pull the plug because posters are pointing these problems out.

But the comments are, again, for the most part, based on the portions of the interaction that have already taken place - and that folks do have a reason to remark upon.

On the other hand, folks commenting on the OP being a coward for wanting to close the thread were way, way over the top. He stopped enjoying the thread - I may disagree with his reasons, but not wanting continue in a thread because he is not having fun... is his choice.

Following with people bickering on whether the comments were over the top... was adding annoyance to annoyance.

The Auld Grump

Kilkrazy wrote:When I was a young boy all my wargames were narratively based because I played with my toy soldiers and vehicles without the use of any rules.

The reason I bought rules and became a real wargamer was because I wanted a properly thought out structure to govern the action instead of just making things up as I went along.
 
   
Made in gb
Land Raider Pilot on Cruise Control





Twickenham, London

This was never going to end well and, to be honest, this was never really going to be neutral either. Not when OP has dropped almost $800 on the army, with $120 being on havoc launchers and 30 minutes worth of freehand. It's come off to me since the beginning as a bit of a BTP defense thread at a time when hatred for BTP is at fever pitch here.

Letting it die now might be best for this thread, although I've enjoyed reading much of the back and forth so far.

"If you don't have Funzo, you're nothin'!"
"I'm cancelling you out of shame, like my subscription to white dwarf"
Never use a long word where a short one will do. 
   
Made in us
Androgynous Daemon Prince of Slaanesh





Norwalk, Connecticut

 Davylove21 wrote:
This was never going to end well and, to be honest, this was never really going to be neutral either. Not when OP has dropped almost $800 on the army, with $120 being on havoc launchers and 30 minutes worth of freehand. It's come off to me since the beginning as a bit of a BTP defense thread at a time when hatred for BTP is at fever pitch here.

Letting it die now might be best for this thread, although I've enjoyed reading much of the back and forth so far.


Since we sit want inaccurate info, I believe it was $60 total for the two launchers. Not each. It's already bad, but doesn't need to be made worse. I feel kinda bad, since I'm the one who dredged up the launcher overcharge info, but mostly I wanted the OP to realize he was being taken advantage of. But hey, based on the money spent, he's an adult and can decide what's worth it to him.

OP, Dakka is just about the best forum for Warhammer you're going to find. But if you expect everyone to agree with your viewpoint all the time, the Internet is probably not the best place for you. The guys on here have actually been REALLY a good, all things considered. Try going to 4chan, if you wanna see how bad it could have been. Or go to Warseer if you want to see "BTP?! Kill the thread so nothig hurtful gets said like 'I don't like that'!!" DAKKa is a good middle ground of discussion. If you want free reign with no rules, hit 4chan. If you want every opinion squashed that ever entered your brain, you're looking for Warseer. Put it in D&D terms: do you want chaotic neutral (with chance of baning), lawful good, or chaotic evil

Reality is a nice place to visit, but I'd hate to live there.

Manchu wrote:I'm a Catholic. We eat our God.


Due to work, I can usually only ship any sales or trades out on Saturday morning. Please trade/purchase with this in mind.  
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran





Sweden

I agree, the thread could never be neutral when it was created in defence of BTP against rising anger twards their business policys.

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.  
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





 Reality-Torrent wrote:
I agree, the thread could never be neutral when it was created in defence of BTP against rising anger twards their business policys.


Perhaps, but explaining the process and his interactions with BTP in detail updating us as and when he received updates from BTP, would have allowed everyone to consider the "facts" and come to their own conclusions, the OP's bias notwithstanding.
   
Made in ar
Dakka Veteran




 timetowaste85 wrote:
 Davylove21 wrote:
This was never going to end well and, to be honest, this was never really going to be neutral either. Not when OP has dropped almost $800 on the army, with $120 being on havoc launchers and 30 minutes worth of freehand. It's come off to me since the beginning as a bit of a BTP defense thread at a time when hatred for BTP is at fever pitch here.

Letting it die now might be best for this thread, although I've enjoyed reading much of the back and forth so far.


Since we sit want inaccurate info, I believe it was $60 total for the two launchers. Not each. It's already bad, but doesn't need to be made worse. I feel kinda bad, since I'm the one who dredged up the launcher overcharge info, but mostly I wanted the OP to realize he was being taken advantage of. But hey, based on the money spent, he's an adult and can decide what's worth it to him.

OP, Dakka is just about the best forum for Warhammer you're going to find. But if you expect everyone to agree with your viewpoint all the time, the Internet is probably not the best place for you. The guys on here have actually been REALLY a good, all things considered. Try going to 4chan, if you wanna see how bad it could have been. Or go to Warseer if you want to see "BTP?! Kill the thread so nothig hurtful gets said like 'I don't like that'!!" DAKKa is a good middle ground of discussion. If you want free reign with no rules, hit 4chan. If you want every opinion squashed that ever entered your brain, you're looking for Warseer. Put it in D&D terms: do you want chaotic neutral (with chance of baning), lawful good, or chaotic evil


The way i understand their service, the conversion budget you set it yourself and they might use it all or not, strictly speaking i would never give them any conversion budget except what they specifically state they need for a particular specific conversion. At the end of the day they are paint oriented contractors, you dont just hand money to a contractor and say "do something with it", it boggles my mind how can anyone think that could possible end up well for you, it seem to be one of those "first world situations" like the one the guy sen in a 1k pluss titan for some terrain he had no specifics about and had never seen in person. I mean sure he got ripped of but honestly, thats like walking ijnto a slum with 3 thousand dollars shoes and a rolex and expect not to get mugged..

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/28 16:54:05


 
   
Made in us
The Hive Mind





It wasn't "some terrain". It was Terrain valued at a certain dollar amount.

And yes, I'd expect to deal with any business for any amount of money and receive professional service - not the bare minimum to make me go away.

My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
 
   
Made in us
Airborne Infiltrating Tomcat






man i hope the op gets what he was looking for as far as results from there company but if the point was too be neutral review i think between this thread and tenebre thread most of us here have all the btp facts we need too form a opinion on there service or at least know what too expect from them when commissioning them for work .thanks again op was interesting i would love too see the end results but kinda think i have a good idea of what you will end up with but hope they go the extra mile for ya

'There is no spoon " 
   
Made in us
Dakka Veteran





Florida

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
I'd like to see the BTP process play out from start to finish.


Same. I saw this hop up the first page and though that there had been an update.

\m/ 
   
Made in nl
Deadshot Weapon Moderati






My email asking about the bits:
Hey Name,

Thanks for keeping me updated! Im sure its a very busy time of year for you guys, so I understand any delay there might be!

I was having a gander at your terms of service and this part caught my eye:
Bitz
Extra parts from kits that we buy on behalf of a client are not returned except on request. This allows us to keep the cost of conversions down– clients that leave their bitz with us benefit other clients and vice versa. The request has to be made in the Assembly portion of your Instructions sheet.

The reason it caught my eye is, when I asked Name about wanting to swap my hunter killer missiles for havoc launchers he quoted me for a 60$ conversion budget. Now I understand that conversions take time and bits also dont come free. But this conversion is a very minor one. So here is my question, what exactly did I buy with that 60$? And if you had to buy a new Rhino for the bit could I receive the rest of the kit? Im a little confused by this, so maybe I have it all wrong.

Thanks for everything so far, also a great Thanksgiving to you and everyone at BTP!

-Name


Their reply:
Hi, Name!

Name, our quotes guy (who did your pricing), must have thought we needed to buy kit(s) to get those Havoc Launchers.
We currently had them in stock on our bits wall here at the studio, however, so there wasn't really any extra cost involved.
I've gone ahead and removed that $60 from your project sheet (see attached). Thanks for pointing that out!

Happy holidays!
~Name


Also to be clear, I will only post this type of update from now on. I will not respond to any posts. If you want to ask me something about the project or something similar, please do so via pm.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/29 01:27:12


 
   
Made in gb
Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar





Cheers Moff.
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

Ok, so a number of possibilities jump out, I'm not intending to suggest one as more likely than another, merely sharing my thoughts.

1. It was a genuine mistake, which, nevertheless, had the query not been raised, would have stiffed a customer out of $60. These things can happen, but it is slightly concerning that an established company in any sphere wouldn't have checks and balances in place to catch these things.

2. They try this a lot, and probably get away with it often enough to be worthwhile.

3. They're monitoring this thread, were expecting the contact and were prepared to respond.

Like I say, not suggesting one over another, just spitballing.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in ar
Dakka Veteran




 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, so a number of possibilities jump out, I'm not intending to suggest one as more likely than another, merely sharing my thoughts.
2. They try this a lot, and probably get away with it often enough to be worthwhile.


Dude it is right there on their TOS that they do this.
   
Made in us
Douglas Bader






Yeah, they say explicitly that they will buy stuff and keep the remaining parts unless you remember to ask for them. They took back the charge in this case, but I have no doubt that if the OP hadn't said anything they would have happily kept the $60 charge and profited from the free Rhino kits.

There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices. 
   
Made in gb
The Daemon Possessing Fulgrim's Body





Devon, UK

xxvaderxx wrote:
 Azreal13 wrote:
Ok, so a number of possibilities jump out, I'm not intending to suggest one as more likely than another, merely sharing my thoughts.
2. They try this a lot, and probably get away with it often enough to be worthwhile.


Dude it is right there on their TOS that they do this.


I'm aware, I meant that they had no need to buy the Rhino, but billed for it anyway, rather than legitimately needed to purchase a Rhino and keep the balance of parts.

We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark

The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.

The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox

Ask me about
Barnstaple Slayers Club 
   
Made in ca
Lit By the Flames of Prospero





Edmonton, Alberta

Thank you moff. I'm very happy to hear that you asked about this, and how it was handled. This is very good news.
^-^


But the fact BTP has a track record of these kinds of "mistakes", still worries me. BTP expects you to cross you t's and dot your i's when you deal with them. (You yourself tend to allude to this in both ten's and this thread.) THEIR mistake almost cost YOU $60, in this situation.

What bugs me about BTP is that so many times I've read about BTP on this and other message boards is that these "mistakes" tend to be to BTP's benefit if not caught....



If Shawn was telling the truth, then this is a failure of inventory management. The person handling the commission was not aware of stock and thus needlessly overcharged a customer. This is a running theme you even see that happened in the case of ten's army. Ten mentioned that he spent alot on a converstion budget in his army, but BTP did very little with the army. I think they over charged for the few bits needed for the small conversions they did do on his army.

This message was edited 7 times. Last update was at 2014/11/29 06:08:59


 
   
 
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