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 Haight wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...

Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.

Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines.

Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.



Something actually approaching on topic: I will say this... it irks the gak out of me when i pre-order something and i don't get it on release day. It's rare, but it does happen.

Chipolte is literally my favorite place on earth...I love burritos so much...I can't eat those frozen ones though - makes me want to die.

Like I said the biggest thing in my case at least is a combination of lack of much stock and having to pay virtually full retail. If I have to order it anyways, why order it from the shop and have to wait longer on top of paying more?

If they had a large amount of stock there'd be more impulse buys. If they offered let's say a 20% discount (13% after tax) then that's still pretty good, even a 17% discount so it's still 10% after tax. But not much selection and only getting what amounts to a 3% discount makes it very hard to get anything significant there.

WayneTheGame wrote:
Like I said the biggest thing in my case at least is a combination of lack of much stock and having to pay virtually full retail. If I have to order it anyways, why order it from the shop and have to wait longer on top of paying more?

If they had a large amount of stock there'd be more impulse buys. If they offered let's say a 20% discount (13% after tax) then that's still pretty good, even a 17% discount so it's still 10% after tax. But not much selection and only getting what amounts to a 3% discount makes it very hard to get anything significant there.

You are aware that online sales also require Sales Tax right? It's just on YOU to report them. Should you ever be audited, you got some 'splainin' to do.

I know I'm late to the party here, but I'm definitely in the camp of "Spend As Much As You Can" at the store where you spend most of your time.

Otherwise, it probably won't be there for long.

If I use a stores tables I ususlly pick up a box or blister as a way of paying them for use of the table. If I want hundreds in models I go online.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Except stores are doing it, and have been for decades.

Again, maybe this is just an Australian thing? Maybe your online discounters just can't get their stock cheap enough to offer good discounts, or the market isn't competitive enough to drive online store prices down and they just take the extra profit while selling at full physical store prices?

We don't have online discounters that go anywhere near yours for the most part. Most might offer 10% (some B&M retailers offer 5-10%), some online retailers may occasionally offer slightly more, but we simply don't get 30-40% off places here. And many of their "discounts" are based off a mythical "Australian RRP" (set by who?) which will vary from store to store and is often more than MSRP from the country of origin. As in I can buy Warlord Games kits direct from Warlord (not a discounter), including shipping, and pay less than the local "discounted" price, quite often. Let alone the local "RRP".

I often find FLGS that will offer 10-20% off I shop mostly in California, Texas, and Pennsylvania, I am happy to buy from them.

If the nearest FLGS offers no discounts, I will buy less from them and more from online until I am spending about 20% of retail total between the total purchases.

Many people who run hobby stores fail to realize they would make more money by charging a little less.

That said if you go somewhere to play, you should buy some things from them and support them, if you don't and maybe no one else is, they may not be around eventually and that place to play will be gone.

 Sergeant Horse wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Like I said the biggest thing in my case at least is a combination of lack of much stock and having to pay virtually full retail. If I have to order it anyways, why order it from the shop and have to wait longer on top of paying more?

If they had a large amount of stock there'd be more impulse buys. If they offered let's say a 20% discount (13% after tax) then that's still pretty good, even a 17% discount so it's still 10% after tax. But not much selection and only getting what amounts to a 3% discount makes it very hard to get anything significant there.

You are aware that online sales also require Sales Tax right? It's just on YOU to report them. Should you ever be audited, you got some 'splainin' to do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States#Internet_transactions

I don't believe its a law quite yet.

 Ghaz wrote:

 Sergeant Horse wrote:

WayneTheGame wrote:
Like I said the biggest thing in my case at least is a combination of lack of much stock and having to pay virtually full retail. If I have to order it anyways, why order it from the shop and have to wait longer on top of paying more?

If they had a large amount of stock there'd be more impulse buys. If they offered let's say a 20% discount (13% after tax) then that's still pretty good, even a 17% discount so it's still 10% after tax. But not much selection and only getting what amounts to a 3% discount makes it very hard to get anything significant there.

You are aware that online sales also require Sales Tax right? It's just on YOU to report them. Should you ever be audited, you got some 'splainin' to do.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sales_taxes_in_the_United_States#Internet_transactions

I don't believe its a law quite yet.

That law may not be, but individual states may have laws existing specifying it is to be reported. Obviously the requirements and thresholds vary from state to state.

As far as the original topic, I generally try to find what I'm looking for locally first. If it's not available for whatever reason, then I typically order it online. I will pay a premium for immediate purchase, but if I will be waiting for a week anyway then I will go with the vendor who is cheaper. I'm honestly surprised that retailers don't offer a similar discount on such orders, but there's no way I'm going to have a wait and another trip to a B&M store to pay full retail.

 Azazelx wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Except stores are doing it, and have been for decades.

Again, maybe this is just an Australian thing? Maybe your online discounters just can't get their stock cheap enough to offer good discounts, or the market isn't competitive enough to drive online store prices down and they just take the extra profit while selling at full physical store prices?

We don't have online discounters that go anywhere near yours for the most part. Most might offer 10% (some B&M retailers offer 5-10%), some online retailers may occasionally offer slightly more, but we simply don't get 30-40% off places here. And many of their "discounts" are based off a mythical "Australian RRP" (set by who?) which will vary from store to store and is often more than MSRP from the country of origin. As in I can buy Warlord Games kits direct from Warlord (not a discounter), including shipping, and pay less than the local "discounted" price, quite often. Let alone the local "RRP".

When it comes to GW stuff I don't think there's any places even internationally that are 30-40%, mostly 15-25%. Out here TheCombatCompany is about 15% on GW stuff and there's a few places that are a bit over 20%, BlackCultist is 21.5% but I think they might charge more for shipping where TCC is free shipping over $100.

Most B&M stores I've been to were at least 10% off GW stuff, up to about 15%.

But yeah, for general items it does seem like the US has bigger online discounts, but it all depends how unrealistic the original RRP was I guess. Both here and there certain items have RRP's set stupidly high. Some things also go on sales frequently. I was looking at buying some tools from Supercheap Auto and noticed that every couple of months they go on sale for close to half price, you'd feel like a sucker if you bought them full price and then 2 weeks later they're $100 off, then another 2 months later again they're $100 off, then 4 months later and so on.

Yes, usually its only for in-state purchases as your state wouldn't receive a sales tax from something you bought out of state in person.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...

Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.

Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven pare clearly populated by unwashed philistines.

Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.



Something actually approaching on topic: I will say this... it irks the gak out of me when i pre-order something and i don't get it on release day. It's rare, but it does happen.

Chipolte is literally my favorite place on earth...I love burritos so much...I can't eat those frozen ones though - makes me want to die.

Have you ever been to La Burrita?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...

Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.

Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines.
Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.

Chipolte is literally my favorite place on earth...I love burritos so much...I can't eat those frozen ones though - makes me want to die.

There is a big difference between a $5-10 fresh-made burrito and a $1 frozen burrito. It's like comparing Five Guys with a dollar menu hamburger at McDonalds, or Mortons vs Dennys. You get what you pay for!

I highly doubt you could sustain a gaming store on the sales of new wargaming figures alone. Some of us have the disposable income to "not care," but then again I spend a great deal of my time scouring trading forums and eBay for the best deals. I find getting models at 60%-80% off a fun game and makes the hobby even cheaper. But if there's $10 gribbles or a new shiny coming out, I buy it at the store. If I do a cash trade, I tend to spend the cash at the store, too.

The smartest thing I've seen is a game store that has a consignment cabinet. It's simply a large glass display case that the you sign a wavier to use and you put models in there with a sticker for price. If it sells, the store gets a 10% straight cut and you get the rest back in store credit, which means the store wins both ways... they enable the used market, which is healthy as the new AND get a significant cut while doing it.

Game stores should not hate bargain hunters but rather enable them! If that's where gamers congregate routinely then it's a win-win to shift goods locally and do so without incurring eBay fees or online trading risks.

Buy the best deal is my motto. I've moved a lot for work, so I don't consider any store I play at the "home store" for long. I want to support them and pay for events, food, and gaming accessories whenever I can from them. However, saving 60% off on a majority of an army, regardless of which game you play, is significant. And store owners shouldn't chase away the crafty bargain hunters because we're just another opponent to play against and we can enable other players. I've let newer players borrow swaths of my stuff to learn to play or be competitive in tournaments. Those players have then turned around and bought those items at the store because they enjoyed the power and capabilities they didn't know were possible.

It's not black and white, much like many things. Good business' will adapt and thrive. Bad will fail.

 Azazelx wrote:
...And many of their "discounts" are based off a mythical "Australian RRP" (set by who?)

RRP is set by the manufacturer. GW isn't so expensive here because retailers are colluding to adhere to an inflated RRP... the prices are what they are because GW sets a wholesale price that is in some cases higher than the retail price overseas, and the store still needs to make a profit on top of that.

I don't know if it has changed in the years since, but waaay back when I was a stockist, the markup from wholesale to retail on GW merchandise in Oz was 30% (which is bad margin, and one of the reasons card games, food, and just about any other miniature game on the market is a better option for a store if they can encourage enough of a customer base for it). That's why you don't tend to see discounts of more than 20%... Even at 20%, the store has to work pretty darn hard to actually make money.

In recent years, at least up until the international embargoes went up, I have heard of independants actually buying stock at retail from overseas rather than from GW wholesale, because it was winding up cheaper for them. That's screwed up.

Late to the party, but my $0.02 from my experiences:

I buy from my FLGS whenever possible. It has a lot to do with how the store treats it's players and collectors.

1. My FLGS is extremely supportive and the owners are extremely cool and accommodating. They host regular 40k tourneys, with no entry fee, and top 3 get in store credit (1st gets $75!!). And at the end, everyone walks away with at least a pot of paint. It may not seem like much, but they don't have to do that at all.

2. When it comes to pre-orders, they bust their ass (and their reps' ass) to get you what you want. In the case of 40k, all the weird "allocated" stuff, they'll get it for you if you preorder.

3. All purchases of certain game systems over a threshold get 20-25% off (ex: all 40k purchases over $150 get 20% off).

4. Gaming space: while small, they will move every table they have to allow you to play your game. And at this FLGS, people play EVERYTHING.

5. The owners are gamers and collectors. Helps a lot with understanding their clientele.

6. Regular customers have "bins"; they'll hold stuff for you until you stop back in.

Because of all this, I have no problem supporting them. If a FLGS is interested in me being their customer, I'll gladly oblige.
Unfortunately, I'll end up moving at some point, and merely hoping I can find a place this good.

 Peregrine wrote:

 insaniak wrote:
A store's sole purpose for existing is to sell stuff. If you walk in for something the store supposedly sells, and they don't have it... that's a failure on the part of the store.

I agree, it's a failure. But there's a difference between being disappointed with the store's failure and deciding you'll never go back to that store because one time they didn't have an item you wanted in stock.

I can't agree with that. If a store orders 10 stompas (for example), but doesn't sell them, that is a costly failure. If the store orders 0 stompas and 10 people come in wanting to but one, then they failed 10 times? Sounds like they can't win.

For a long time we had two stores, on store stocked alot of GW products, the other only stocked what it thought it could sell. The first store went out of business. The second store is thriving and has doubled it's playing space. I buy and order stuff from this store because I appreciate the space they provide.

There's something to be said that if you're actively supporting a game, having the staples for it would be wise. For GW (why would a new B&M start a trade account with them is beyond me), that's gonna be troopers and their transports. For PP, Battle Boxes and faction "Must Haves" like the Choir for Menoth or Shifting Stones for Circle of Orboros.

Having the big stuff on hand that's a one time purchase ($100+ kits) probably isn't as wise and you can have them be a special order item if you offer incentive to order there (20%~).

I wouldn't rake a FLGS over the coals if they didn't have a certain unit for a list I'm building that's completely contrary to popular choice. If it's not common, why would you stock it?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Haight wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

What? Not cheap-ass nukable burritos by the case? Because that's what a game store needs for ambiance...

Burritos aren't as much of a thing down here as in the US.

Well that explains why I never looked into immigrating to Australia. Because nations that don't consider burritos mana from heaven are clearly populated by unwashed philistines.
Seriously. Burritos are like my favorite goddamn thing to eat. They don't always have to be stinky and fart smelly.

Chipolte is literally my favorite place on earth...I love burritos so much...I can't eat those frozen ones though - makes me want to die.

There is a big difference between a $5-10 fresh-made burrito and a $1 frozen burrito. It's like comparing Five Guys with a dollar menu hamburger at McDonalds, or Mortons vs Dennys. You get what you pay for!

Absolutely. 1$ frozen burritos are not food any more than 1$ frozen hotdogs, or sandwiches out of gas station vending machines are.

But Bocoloco, Chipotle, and to a slightly lesser extent, Cilantro are fething delicious. I like chipotle the best as it has a little less variety but everythign is UBER goddamn fresh, and their design of checkout is brilliant (4 line workers in about 6 feet, from burrito press to checkout, takes 30 seconds tops as they make it right before your eyes). Soooooo good.

I have one near my work and one just opened up near my house, so i am a happy burrito slut.

At the end of the day, stores come and go. If one closes, wait a year give or take a few months and it will be replaced by another just like it carrying the same merchandise.

If a store does not want to fail and become just another number, the owner needs to find a way to prevent it. This means finding ways yo make customers WANT to spend their money there. The onus is 100% on the shoulders of the store owner.
Having a gaming area is a start. a START. being successful means more than slapping a couple sheets of plywood on sawhorses and then sitting back with a bucket expecting people to come from all across the country to pour their money into it. It seems that this is all many think they have to do. Well, unfortunately, as we have seen and see in this thread by (evidently) failing shop owners, it takes more.
Shop owners need to be knowledgeable, offer discounts, hold events, start or host clubs, explain rules and run demonstrate games they may not personally like and so on and so forth in order to compete with the internet sales. They need to make customers WANT to make sure they stay in business for MORE reasons than to have a place to game (because they can do that at home or in the new shop when it opens up in a few weeks). They need to ensure the customers want THIS store to stick around.
If they do this, the internet sales vs store sales will not be an issue to begin with.
Ive seen this with my own eyes. Store owners who do this WILL have customers coming in and buying stuff they could otherwise get slightly cheaper online.

 Geemoney wrote:
I can't agree with that. If a store orders 10 stompas (for example), but doesn't sell them, that is a costly failure. If the store orders 0 stompas and 10 people come in wanting to but one, then they failed 10 times? Sounds like they can't win.

Of course they can win. They do that by knowing the products they sell, and knowing their customer base, and stocking accordingly.

For a long time we had two stores, on store stocked alot of GW products, the other only stocked what it thought it could sell. The first store went out of business. The second store is thriving and has doubled it's playing space..

That doesn't actually prove anything more than that one store went out of business and the other didn't. There are a heck of a lot more factors than just what's on the shelf that decide whether or not a store stays in business.

So if your FLGS is in fact friendly, figure out what huge order you want, and what it would cost online. Then go to your game store and ask them if they can cut you deal. A single big order, pay in cash (avoids CC merchant fees for the store), be willing to take delivery over time... See if you can't work together to save some money and give the shop some business.

-Neslor

 House Griffith wrote:
Late to the party, but my $0.02 from my experiences:

I buy from my FLGS whenever possible. It has a lot to do with how the store treats it's players and collectors.

1. My FLGS is extremely supportive and the owners are extremely cool and accommodating. They host regular 40k tourneys, with no entry fee, and top 3 get in store credit (1st gets $75!!). And at the end, everyone walks away with at least a pot of paint. It may not seem like much, but they don't have to do that at all.

2. When it comes to pre-orders, they bust their ass (and their reps' ass) to get you what you want. In the case of 40k, all the weird "allocated" stuff, they'll get it for you if you preorder.

3. All purchases of certain game systems over a threshold get 20-25% off (ex: all 40k purchases over $150 get 20% off).

4. Gaming space: while small, they will move every table they have to allow you to play your game. And at this FLGS, people play EVERYTHING.

5. The owners are gamers and collectors. Helps a lot with understanding their clientele.

6. Regular customers have "bins"; they'll hold stuff for you until you stop back in.

Because of all this, I have no problem supporting them. If a FLGS is interested in me being their customer, I'll gladly oblige.
Unfortunately, I'll end up moving at some point, and merely hoping I can find a place this good.

I wish there were more Carolina Comics in this world!!!!

I figured out the thing I value most is items being in stock. Not price. Not a place to play. I want to buy something from someone who actually has it and in exchange for my money, I actually get the item in question (what a crazy notion!).

I did the special order thing with one local store for a while, but there was simply too high of a failure rate. I had things not get placed on the order at all, stuff out of stock at distributors, stuff put out on the shelf and sold rather than being held for my order. I game at the store about twice a month and I always buy something. A couple bottles of paint, a couple reaper bones miniatures, or maybe a solo for WM/Hs if they have one I want.

They get only 10% or so of my hobby spending by failing me on special orders. I'm not looking for a discount. I have even paid higher than MSRP after shipping to get an item I want from someone I know has it. I just want the actual product I want without endless delays and problems.

I used to try to support my FLGS, our store has a bunch of gaming tables and is pretty huge, however they offer no discount whatsoever. I support them by buying all Glue, Green Stuff, Paints and Magic Cards. I buy all my TTG figures online new or pre owned, it is hard for me to justify paying full retail when I can pay 35% less. I mainly game at home but that is changing as I am starting to push Batman the Miniatures game on the overall community, however they cannot order Batman in nor do they wish to attempt to support it so I do not really feel so bad.

 Alpharius wrote:
I know I'm late to the party here, but I'm definitely in the camp of "Spend As Much As You Can" at the store where you spend most of your time.

I agree, I will always buy from a physical shop if I can. Not only does it keep the place in business, particular important if you actually game there, but it means that you get your toys instantly. I will only buy online if I'm after something that isn't in stock (and can't be ordered) or if the shop is hopeless. It may be a bit more expensive than buying from somewhere like Wayland, but depending on what you are buying its generally little more than pennies.

I live close to a good shop these days so virtually my entire little man budget goes there now but in the past I lived nearly on top of a shop that was simply terrible and as a result I bought nearly everything online.

 insaniak wrote:

 Azazelx wrote:
...And many of their "discounts" are based off a mythical "Australian RRP" (set by who?)

RRP is set by the manufacturer. GW isn't so expensive here because retailers are colluding to adhere to an inflated RRP... the prices are what they are because GW sets a wholesale price that is in some cases higher than the retail price overseas, and the store still needs to make a profit on top of that.

I actually wasn't talking about GW at all, since obviously GW sets their own RRP here due to their local presence/global reach. I've stopped buying their stuff almost completely, and only pick up the occasional pot of paint locally. Battlefront is one of the other - few - exceptions that sets an AU$RRP for their product. I was actually referring to a much broader swathe of hobby product, from boardgames (Zombicide - where I've seen four different "RRP" from four different stores at the same time - all before our dollar crashed and pre-ZS2) through to historical miniatures, From Warlod to Victrix to Gripping Beast to WGF.

In recent years, at least up until the international embargoes went up, I have heard of independants actually buying stock at retail from overseas rather than from GW wholesale, because it was winding up cheaper for them. That's screwed up.

Some places still do this. Mayalsia/Singapore supplies a few people, as I understand it.

My local shop told me today they're ok with people selling/trading armies to each other in the shop. A guy was about to buy $100 worth of Menoth and the owner told him to talk to me first. I sold him my Menoth for $100. Then I walked him over to the paint section and sold him $80 worth of paint and brushes so everybody won. I talked to him privately about pricing and placing large orders, he can do 20% off all the time, larger discounts for big orders. Since he's willing to work with me on price, I'm going to make sure all my friends shop there. He already agreed to start keeping a better WMH stock because he knows if we have to order and wait for something to come in, we will go online to save money.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The most successful long-term gaming stores I've seen had ONE 4'x8' table that served multiple purposes, with folding tables for card gaming nights.

The stores with more table space than product shelving? Out of business within a year.

If you are serious about being a viable business, the less table space, the better.

That's definitely not the model here in Chicago and real estate isn't cheap either. The longest surviving game store started (8 years?) with 6 4x6 gaming tables and a few card tables for card games. Then they rented a vacant space and expanded to 10 more picnic tables with wood overlays (essentially 4x6 tables). Now they're in a double sized space with 8 or so game tables and about 15-20 card/picknic tables that do double duty as card and wargame tables (with wood tops added).

The longest surviving store (20+ years) in the suburbs has 7 permanent wargaming tables and 4 partitioned off areas that are RPG, Card or wargames tables depending on the evening. And this store is in an area where folks tend to have houses that could host their own games.

I can't speak to where you live, but all this to say, less tables does not equal survival.

I just look at the game / hobby stores in Ann Arbor and SoCal, and that's what I see very consistently. There isn't a single place in either locality that survives with the bulk of their space dedicated to lots of tables. In both metros, the places that survived long term were stores first.

Unless they are a dedicated card store, doing FNM and drafts and tournaments every weekend. Cards have a very different business model compared to a game / hobby store. Even then, the card stores are challenged to have enough of a base to thrive.