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Made in fr
Hallowed Canoness





 Melissia wrote:
Ooooooor you'll just be cut down by I4+ assault troops before you can attack...

Even with a 2+ save? Beside monstruous creatures, who has AP2 and strike before I3?

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
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 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Ooooooor you'll just be cut down by I4+ assault troops before you can attack...

Even with a 2+ save? Beside monstruous creatures, who has AP2 and strike before I3?

Off the top of my head (on my phone right now)? Anything with rending, spears on the charge, and anything that can land a lot of attacks. The fact that they're not I4 will mean they'll do less damage even against enemies that don't have ap2, as well as take more.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/27 17:15:04


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Made in se
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The burning pits of Hades, also known as Sweden in summer

 Melissia wrote:
 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
 Melissia wrote:
Ooooooor you'll just be cut down by I4+ assault troops before you can attack...

Even with a 2+ save? Beside monstruous creatures, who has AP2 and strike before I3?

Off the top of my head (on my phone right now)? Anything with rending, spears on the charge, and anything that can land a lot of attacks. The fact that they're not I4 will mean they'll do less damage even against enemies that don't have ap2, as well as take more.



Aren't spears S +1 AP3 on the charge? And S user AP4 usually.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2015/04/27 18:13:44


I should think of a new signature... In the meantime, have a  
   
Made in fr
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 Melissia wrote:
Off the top of my head (on my phone right now)? Anything with rending, spears on the charge, and anything that can land a lot of attacks. The fact that they're not I4 will mean they'll do less damage even against enemies that don't have ap2, as well as take more.

Maybe also add a Rosarius? Then they would be approximately as though as terminators. One less point in thoughness, but a better invulnerable. Which seems a fine place to me given how the terminator armor is supposed to be the best armor ever and all that…

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
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Or we could just give them WS4/I4 back, power weapon upgrades for the squaddies, and better acts of faith, without trying to slap on a bunch of other things and turn them in to pseudo-terminators.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/27 20:18:24


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Artificer armour and Rosarius is too similar to Marines, but WS4 and I4 is not?


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Hallowed Canoness





 Melissia wrote:
Or we could just give them WS4/I4 back

They still have the WS4, no? Even Seraphim have WS4.
 Melissia wrote:
without trying to slap on a bunch of other things and turn them in to pseudo-terminators.

I think mastercrafted stuff and artificier armor are totally fitting fluffwise, though.

"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
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Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






I took my own shot at 30 ppm storm shield & power lance super-Seraphim. I don't think I've overcome the glass hammer problem inherent in piling melee upgrades on a T:3 moel, though.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
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ANGRY SISTERS wielding Power Axes and Thunder Hammers.

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 RaptorusRex wrote:
ANGRY SISTERS wielding Power Axes and Thunder Hammers.


Sigmarite Sisters?

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Hammers are such a crude and ugly tool. We Sisters prefer our two-handed weapons to be more ladylike and graceful, like the Eviscerator.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
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 Melissia wrote:
Or we could just give them WS4/I4 back, power weapon upgrades for the squaddies, and better acts of faith, without trying to slap on a bunch of other things and turn them in to pseudo-terminators.

Celestians (and Seraphim) are already WS4.

When you add a Priest to let them re-roll Saves they become reasonably resilient, especially if you have a Canoness with the Mantle and Rosarius to tank AP2/3 stuff on her Invuln save. A re-rollable 3+ Armour Save makes up for only being I3 if you're fighting something without AP3. Furious Charge letting them be S4 on the charge and another Priest to let them re-roll those To Wounds also makes them reasonable at putting Wounds on a Target too.

Celestians aren't flashy, and their utility is dependent on having some Priests and a Canoness with them. But they do OK then. The biggest problem by far is their lack of an effective means of getting into Assault, but that's a problem alot of armies have not just Sisters.


 
   
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USA

I don't 'think they should need to have a pair of priests as a crutch just to be "okay".

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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No I don't either, but if you do run them that way then they are OK. Certainly the best way to run a Sisters Melee unit imo, without using a Battle Conclave (which if you want to run take one from Codex Inquisition imo).

Then again Priests are an excellent model and you should be using them wherever possible. Almost to the point where if you make Celestians good without them, and then add the current version of Priests to them they will become really really good.


 
   
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 GoonBandito wrote:
No I don't either, but if you do run them that way then they are OK. Certainly the best way to run a Sisters Melee unit imo, without using a Battle Conclave (which if you want to run take one from Codex Inquisition imo).

Then again Priests are an excellent model and you should be using them wherever possible. Almost to the point where if you make Celestians good without them, and then add the current version of Priests to them they will become really really good.

Then get rid of the idiotic priest abilities. They're nothing but a lame crutch anyway that basically means you have to buy a priest for every single squad.

The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
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Why are they are a crutch? That's like saying Commissars are a crutch for an Imperial Guard blob, because without them you'll be failing morale left right and centre and seeing a 50man blob get Swept because you lost 5 guys in an Assault Phase. Or saying Nobs are a crutch for an Ork Boy squad because without that Power Klaw you can tie up huge mobs with a Dreadnought.

You don't take a Priest for every single squad, you take them for the squads you are intending for use in close combat (imo). LD9 from your Veteran Superior is good enough for Battle Sister Squads that are going to be driving around in Rhinos or holding rear guard.


 
   
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It should also be noted that some tau can go up to WS4 I4. WS5 I5(?) in the case of farsight (see maybe tau might not be so gak at CC if they actualy trained for it).

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 BaronIveagh wrote:
Basically they went from a carrot and stick to a smaller carrot and flanged mace.
 
   
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Yeah, but Indepenedent Characters, especially Special Characters, are a tricky point to start extrapolating from for normal soldiers. (Extrapolating what the ICs should be for any given infantry model, by contrast, is a simple matter of improving stats). Most obviously, HQ characters tend to have two or three Wounds, grunts almost never do.

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
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Tau also have the aid of Battlesuit systems. It's entirely possible that certain Battlesuits are so advanced so they can swing and dodge faster than their pilot.

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 GoonBandito wrote:
Why are they are a crutch? That's like saying Commissars are a crutch for an Imperial Guard blob
A better comparison is if you had to have a techpriest for every single tactical marine squad to allow them to use their heavy weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 SisterSydney wrote:
Yeah, but Indepenedent Characters, especially Special Characters, are a tricky point to start extrapolating from for normal soldiers. (Extrapolating what the ICs should be for any given infantry model, by contrast, is a simple matter of improving stats). Most obviously, HQ characters tend to have two or three Wounds, grunts almost never do.
Celestians aren't grunt or "normal soldiers". They are, quite literally, the best that unaugmented humanity can offer.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/04/28 13:07:09


The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
 
   
Made in us
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 Melissia wrote:
I'd prefer to see actual Sisters stuff rather than regurgitated Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy crap. I was never interested in freakshow armies.


Feel the same way. Was angry when they lumped the Inquisiton in with the Grey Knights. I hope they don't lump the sisters in with anything and they they update them!! They are like the 40k equivalent of the Bretonians.
   
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Seattle

Well, the Sisters were part of the Inquisition for, like, 4 Editions, so... it's kind of odd to see them lose that aspect, really.

The GK have pretty much always been part of the Inquisition, as well, being the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus and all.

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Australia

I also don't mind Sisters having Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition ties either - after all that's exactly what their fluff is. The 'standing army' of the Church, who also have close ties to the Ordo Hereticus. I would be annoyed if they took those aspects away from the Sisters...


 
   
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Calixis Sector

I've always liked the Sisters tie to both the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition.

I've made several new units for my own Fandex: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609583.page#7102148

My newest units are the Shrine Maiden and Shield Maiden battle Suits.

The Shrine Maiden is based off the Dreadnaught, but with weaker weapons and 1 less side armour. It's also 30 points cheaper and comes with Shield of Faith.

The Shield Maiden replaces 1 of it's weapons with an Eviscerator (same as a Chain Fist) with the option to purchase a second Eviscerator. What makes the Shield Maiden special is that it gets a 4++ save and can extend out a 5++ to friendly units once per game.

   
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 J3f wrote:
I've always liked the Sisters tie to both the Ecclesiarchy and Inquisition.

I've made several new units for my own Fandex: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/609583.page#7102148

My newest units are the Shrine Maiden and Shield Maiden battle Suits.

The Shrine Maiden is based off the Dreadnaught, but with weaker weapons and 1 less side armour. It's also 30 points cheaper and comes with Shield of Faith.

The Shield Maiden replaces 1 of it's weapons with an Eviscerator (same as a Chain Fist) with the option to purchase a second Eviscerator. What makes the Shield Maiden special is that it gets a 4++ save and can extend out a 5++ to friendly units once per game.


I read your fandex. the sisters Technologous sound pretty cool

1500pts Kabal of the Blood Moon
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Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





It's one thing to tie armies together, it's another thing to make it dependent on each other. What I mean by that is the GK codex is Grey Knights where you can have some Inquisitional and Witch Hunter bits in the army if you want. It's much much harder to make a unique and fun Inquisitional army without having the GK in it. Where, before they mixed them and the Inquisition and Witch Hunters had their own codex, I had a fun and effective and unique Inquisition army.
   
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Australia

tilarium wrote:
It's one thing to tie armies together, it's another thing to make it dependent on each other. What I mean by that is the GK codex is Grey Knights where you can have some Inquisitional and Witch Hunter bits in the army if you want. It's much much harder to make a unique and fun Inquisitional army without having the GK in it. Where, before they mixed them and the Inquisition and Witch Hunters had their own codex, I had a fun and effective and unique Inquisition army.

Err, not anymore. Inquisition and Grey Knights are completely separate codex again.


 
   
Made in us
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Thematic dependence isn't as much of a problem as playability dependence. SoB dependence is due to a lack updating not due to any thematic choice. If the Exorcist were given an AA option and SoN given a flyer and a tailored transport option that would solve the great majority of their short comings.
   
Made in us
Preacher of the Emperor






What kind of "tailored transport option" are you thinking of? Something to fill the lack of an assault vehicle or...?

BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.

I’m updating that fandex now & I’m eager for feedback on new home-brew units for the Sisters: Sororitas Bikers, infiltrators & Novices, tanks, flyers, characters, superheavies, Frateris Militia, and now Confessors and Battle Conclave characters
My Novice Ginevra stories start with Bolter B-Word Privileges 
   
 
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