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Should Nurgle units keep their feel no pain save regardless versus shooting wounds?
Yes, they are immune to the instant death rule and therefore always receive their feel no pain save even against a demolisher cannon. 45% [ 49 ]
No, of course they lose their feel no pain save when shot with a weapon twice their toughness. 55% [ 60 ]
Total Votes : 109
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Made in au
Skink Chief with Poisoned Javelins






Down under

Hi all,

Its come to our attention that the new codex daemons across the board immunity to instant death, coupled with the feel no pain saves for certain units seem to be a point of contention.

For example a plague bearer unit versus a demolisher cannon shot.

The weapon is twice the targets toughness so causes instant death and therefore feel no pain cannot be used.

It can be argued that since all daemons are immune to instant death they should always get their feel no pain save.

Personally I believe that the wording of the feel no pain rule itself means they lose it versus strength 10 weapons but i'll leave it to the masses.

How do you think this should be interpreted?

 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

If you check the current rulebook, FNP says you don't get FNP against ID, so I'd rule "no". Besides, Nurgle is plenty good enough as it is.

   
Made in us
Regular Dakkanaut





I think what he's asking is: Since all daemons from Codex: Demons are immune to Instant Death, do Plaguebearers always get FNP since they don't ever recieve wounds that cause instant death. If the BGB says FNP is negated by instant death (as opposed to it literally saying strength double the models toughness), and plaguebearers are immune to instant death, would their FNP be unaffected by instant death?

Was that a good clarification Beefy?

There is an attitude that not having an insanely optimized, one shot, six stage, omnidirectional, inevitable, mousetrap of an assassin list army somehow means that you have foolishly wasted your life building 500 points of pure, 24 karat, hand rolled, fine, cuban fail. That attitude has been shown, under laboratory conditions, to cause cancer of the fun gland.

- palaeomerus


 
   
Made in de
Flashy Flashgitz





Devon, England

I guess this should also include Force Weapons. Didn't they recently get FAQ'd as causing instant death?

"Hello? You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel." 
   
Made in au
Frenzied Berserker Terminator






Force Weapons are a non-issue, since they're close combat weapons that ignore armour saves.

Not so sure on the rest, though.
   
Made in de
Flashy Flashgitz





Devon, England

Ah. Good call.

"Hello? You'll have to speak up, I'm wearing a towel." 
   
Made in au
Horrific Howling Banshee





The Demolisher shell inflicts instant death

Daemons are immune to Instant Death

Feel no Pain says "This ability cannot be used against weapons that inflict instant death"

So the weapon inflicts instant death and thus negates FNP. Eternal Warrior then causes the effect of Instant Death to be ignored.

So no; Plaguebearers cannot use FNP against Demolisher shells.
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Instant Death is dependent on the target as well as the weaopn. A Lascannon inflicts Instant Death on a Space Marine but not on a Plaguebearer. Why? The weapon is exactly the same. It's because the Plaguebearer has T5. This means that ID is determined by the target.

Thus, if a target is immune to ID then no attack against it inflicts ID. Therefore they will get the FNP roll.
   
Made in au
Horrific Howling Banshee





No.

The weapon is checked against the targets toughness to determine if it inflicts instant death (this is the effect FNP looks for)

The Daemon itself is immune to ID, but the weapon still inflicts the effect that is subsequently ignored.

Anyways the point will be moot in 2 months when the rulebook comes out and states this in black and white (feel free to waste time arguing about it however until it does come out...)
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation





Aeon wrote:No.


A compelling and well structured argument!

The weapon is checked against the targets toughness to determine if it inflicts instant death (this is the effect FNP looks for)


Which is exactly what I said. Thank you for backing me up. Since the ability of a weapon to inflict ID is dependent on the target - then the target's immunity to ID means that it still gets FNP.

Anyways the point will be moot in 2 months when the rulebook comes out and states this in black and white (feel free to waste time arguing about it however until it does come out...)


True enough. Though it's amusing that you call it a waste of time while simultaneously engaging yourself in the argument.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/19 14:55:42


 
   
Made in sg
Executing Exarch





A compelling and well structured argument!


Kind of a cheap shot considering he goes on to state his argument, no?

Anyway, I'm in the "no FNP" camp. The rule states that FNP "cannot be used against weapons that inflict Instant Death (those with a Strength double or more the model's Toughness)." The sentence in the parentheses define the phrase that precedes it. What is a weapon that "inflicts Instant Death?" Per this rule, it is a weapon "with a Strength double or more the model's Toughness."

Edit: Eh, just after posting I noticed a problem with this position. If the Eternal Warriors rule in the Daemon dex is similar to that in the Eldar dex, then it states that the model with this rule is "immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule." Isn't nullifying FNP one of these effects/

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/19 18:33:36


Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

"immune to the effects of the ID rule" only applies to the text under ID. It does NOT affect the text under FNP.

Non-Daemon models would suffer ID *and* lose FNP. A W3 Chaplain (with FNP) goes -splat- when he's hit by a Demolisher and fails his Rosarius.

Basically, EW splits the difference. EW says you don't suffer ID, but you still lose FNP. In the same situation above, the Daemon only loses a single wound when he fails his Ward save. He doesn't get FNP, but that's better than going splat.


This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/05/19 18:55:55


   
Made in sg
Executing Exarch





"immune to the effects of the ID rule" only applies to the text under ID. It does NOT affect the text under FNP.


Why not?

Wehrkind wrote:Sounds like a lot, but with a little practice I can do ~7-8 girls in 2-3 hours. Probably less if the cat and wife didn't want attention in that time.
 
   
Made in ca
Pestilent Plague Marine with Blight Grenade





The Frozen North

JohnHwangDD wrote:"immune to the effects of the ID rule" only applies to the text under ID. It does NOT affect the text under FNP.

Non-Daemon models would suffer ID *and* lose FNP. A W3 Chaplain (with FNP) goes -splat- when he's hit by a Demolisher and fails his Rosarius.

Basically, EW splits the difference. EW says you don't suffer ID, but you still lose FNP. In the same situation above, the Daemon only loses a single wound when he fails his Ward save. He doesn't get FNP, but that's better than going splat.


Feel no Pain cannot be used against "attacks that inflict Instant Death."

If you're immune to Instant Death, the attack does not inflict Instant Death, thus you can use Feel no Pain.

This also affects Fuegan, from the Eldar Codex.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/19 19:12:50


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Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA


The people who are voting 'no' here are playing as though the FNP rule reads something like:

"Feel No Pain cannot be used against attacks that would cause instant death".


That IS NOT what the rule actually says. If the wound inflicts instant death, then FNP cannot be used.

Does a S10 hit vs. a Beat of Nurgle (T5, 2W) actually inflict instant death on the model?

Of course it doesn't.

If someone tried to deny the beast of Nurgle his FNP save against such a wound what would be the rationale? That the beast suffered instant death but then ignored that effect?

That isn't what the FNP rules say! If instant death is not "inflicted" on the model, then the FNP save may be used.


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Made in us
Charging Bull




Rochester, New York

I think Yakface is right but I don't think they need to get any better :(. If the rule says that instant death has to be inflicted to negate FNP then they still get it.

"But remember that there are over 1000 chapters of spase marienz! So the SM codex has to cover over 1000 different kinds of spase marienz! Codex CSM only has to cover 1 kind (the Chaos kind). And I don't even think Eldar are a kind of spase marienz at all. Hurr!"
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Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






Lancaster PA

Hmmm I think Yak has a point, unfortunately. There go my hopes of melta-killing Nurgle lords.

As an aside, is it just me, or is the amount of "immune to instant death" on the chaos side of the board a little frustrating? Cannoness Cammomile pays a hefty chunk of points to avoid instant death once only.

I am going to take my 3rd edition codex and go cry in the corner now...


Woad to WAR... on Celts blog, which is mostly Circle Orboros
"I'm sick of auto-penetrating attacks against my behind!" - Kungfuhustler 
   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




Ill sign with Yak on this..

If you are immune to ID you are immune to all effects of it. Dont even see where anyone finds an exception to this.
   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

tegeus-Cromis wrote:
"immune to the effects of the ID rule" only applies to the text under ID. It does NOT affect the text under FNP.


Why not?


Because 40k operates under explicit and limited rules scope. Rules only scope as far as they are specifically stated to do so. You can't imply rules that aren't explictly stated.

So if EW doesn't say you always get FNP, then you don't get it.

It's same as when Nurglitch argued that you implictly score a regular hit on a unit when firing with a Blast Weapon, rather than only applying those rules which are explicitly stated (i.e. place template evaluate Full / Partial hits by base coverage).

Arguing that EW implies automatic FNP is going beyond the scope of ID as stated.

   
Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






SoCal, USA!

Also, in the future, how about we start requiring rules-related queries to quote the relevant rules verbatim in the initial post?

I mean, think of the children!

   
Made in se
Dakka Veteran




The only thing I can see is if the rule has an exception stated in it..

"This ability cannot be used against weapons that inflict Instant Death (by having a high enough Strength or a special rule to that effect; even if the model is an Eternal
Warrior)"

Wich ofc implies that the rule would actually work without that exception. Anyway this is from the old leaked pdf so I guess we just have to wait and see.
   
Made in eu
Infiltrating Broodlord





Mordheim/Germany

Mhhh...without knowing the exact wording on eternal warrior for the daemons (I work with the rulebook/eldar codex and chaos codex here):

The special rules save the target form the effects of instant death. What effects has the instant death rule? The target loses all his wounds and not just one.

What does the Feel no pain rule says: It doesn't work if a weapon inflicts instant death. The weapon still inflict instant death (which is ignored) but still negating the fnp save, because the rule for eternal warrior doesn't say anything in reference to the fnp rule.

Sooo I voted no. But I realize the delicate matter on this one and would roll for it in a game I guess...

Greets
Schepp himself

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/19 22:18:00


40k:
Fantasy: Skaven, Vampires  
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka






San Jose, CA

How can a weapon inflict "Instant Death," and so negate FNP, when daemons are immune to instant death?

Got to go with Yak on this one - daemons are immune to Instand Death, so no weapon can "inflict" Instant Death, so no weapon negates FNP.*

*In that manner - armor-ignoring CC attacks still negate FNP as usual.

Quis Custodiet Ipsos Custodes? 
   
Made in us
Bush? No, Eldar Ranger



stockton, ca aka Da Hood

Im going to go with Yak on this. this is how we have played fuegen and it makes sense to me, going off of what the RAW FNP rule says.

if you are instant killed you dont get FNP. if you are not instant killed then you get FNP.

i personally believe that if the wording was "unless the weapon has a str value twice of the model" then your argument would be supported. but because it says "FNP cannot be used against attacks that inflict instant death" it means just that. if a model will be instant-killed Fnp cannot be used. Models that are immune to ID never fall under that clause, because they are exempt to that affect.


edited once for clarity

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/19 23:00:00


Eldar 8+ years/CSM 4+ years
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Made in au
Skink Chief with Poisoned Javelins






Down under

DeathGod wrote:I think what he's asking is: Since all daemons from Codex: Demons are immune to Instant Death, do Plaguebearers always get FNP since they don't ever recieve wounds that cause instant death. If the BGB says FNP is negated by instant death (as opposed to it literally saying strength double the models toughness), and plaguebearers are immune to instant death, would their FNP be unaffected by instant death?

Was that a good clarification Beefy?


Thanks DeathGod.

The part in the brackets were what we felt that the rule was "Intended" to be, but as far as RAW goes i'm going to switch teams and side with yak...until such time that it is officially clarified.

Note: We may still play it to be "no" as a house rule in our games.

 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





JohnHwangDD wrote:It's same as when Nurglitch argued that you implictly score a regular hit on a unit when firing with a Blast Weapon, rather than only applying those rules which are explicitly stated (i.e. place template evaluate Full / Partial hits by base coverage).

Wrong, Warhammer rules apply to their universe of discourse, are 'reiterated within that scope' in logical parlance, unless specifically contradicted or limited. Hence I was arguing that the Blast rules were in addition to the normal shooting rules, as directed in the Blast rules.

Regardless...

Aeon is correct.

P1. A Demolisher Cannon inflicts Instant Death on a T4 Daemon that it wounds (because ID iff S10>2xT4=T).

P2. Daemons are immune to suffering Instant Death (because of Eternal Warrior?)

P3. Feel no Pain says "This ability cannot be used against weapons that inflict instant death" and not 'This ability cannot be used when the model suffers instant death'.

C1. A Daemon wounded by a Demolisher Cannon does not suffer Instant Death, because Daemons in general do not suffer from Instant Death (because P1 & P2).

C2. That Daemon cannot use Feel No Pain because the Demolisher Cannon inflicts Instant Death on T5- models, and therefore including T4 models (because P1 & P3).

So no; Plaguebearers cannot use Feel No Pain against weapons that inflict Instant Death, although they do not suffer from Instant Death if so wounded (on the condition that they have Eternal Warrior).
   
Made in us
[ADMIN]
President of the Mat Ward Fan Club






Los Angeles, CA

Nurglitch wrote:

P1. A Demolisher Cannon inflicts Instant Death on a T4 Daemon that it wounds (because ID iff S10>2xT4=T).




Premise 1 is false because in this case instant death has not been inflicted on the model as it has a special rule which prevents it from suffering instant death.

Instant death is a game effect that causes models to be immediately removed from the game. It can be cause by a couple different ways. A weapon whose strength is double or more than a target's toughness is one way, but there are also weapons that simply denoted as causing instant death.

Regardless, if a model has a special rule which ignores instant death, then that effect does not occur and it cannot be said that the model suffered instant death (or that instant death was "inflicted" upon the model).


In other words, if I go to strike you with a "mortal blow" but you have a shield which prevents my attack from killing you, can I claim that I struck you with a "mortal blow"? Of course not!

A S10 weapon hitting a T5 (or less) model would normally inflict instant death on that model, but in this case the model has a special rule which prevents instant death from being inflicted.



I play (click on icons to see pics): DQ:70+S++G(FAQ)M++B-I++Pw40k92/f-D+++A+++/areWD104R+T(D)DM+++
yakface's 40K rule #1: Although the rules allow you to use modeling to your advantage, how badly do you need to win your toy soldier games?
yakface's 40K rule #2: Friends don't let friends start a MEQ army.
yakface's 40K rule #3: Codex does not ALWAYS trump the rulebook, so please don't say that!
Waaagh Dakka: click the banner to learn more! 
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





Yakface:

Premise 1 is true, a S10 weapon wounding a T4 model, Daemon or otherwise, inflicts Instant Death upon that model. It serves the conditions listed in the Instant Death rule.

Likewise Premise 2 is true, models with the Eternal Warrior rule, such as Daemons, are immune to the effects of the Instant Death rule.

The effect of the Instant Death rule is that the model is removed as a casualty, "if [it] is wounded by something which has a Strength value of double their Toughness value or greater and fail their save" (Rulebook, p.27).

Premise 2 does not contradict Premise 1 because Eternal Warrior does not stop a weapon from inflicting Instant Death, it makes a model immune to suffering the effects of Instant Death.

So if a S10 weapon wounds a T4 model with both the Eternal Warrior rule and the Feel No Pain rule, say a Daemon, then that model is not removed as a casualty if it has wounds remaining, and that wound cannot be negated by Feel No Pain.

What seems to be confusing you, and others, is the fact that the Feel No Pain rule and the Instant Death rule share conditions. If these conditions are obtained, then it is the case that a model suffers Instant Death and does not get a Feel No Pain roll to negate the wound. The Eternal Warrior rule says that if these conditions are obtained, then a model does not suffer Instant Death.

Hence the first premise of my argument states one condition for Instant Death, ID iff S10>2xT4=T. The logical structure of the Instant Death rule is:

P1. ID iff S>2T=T

Likewise, since the Eternal Warrior rule negates the antecedent of the Instant Death rule (the effect, not its causes), then logical structure of the Eternal Warrior rule is:

P2. ~ID iff S>2T=T & EW=T

Finally, the logical structure of the Feel No Pain rule is:

P3. FNP iff ~(S>2T=T v ~Sv=T)

The first conclusion, the fact that a model with Eternal Warrior (a Daemon) does not suffer from Instant Death, follows logically because it simply reiterates Premise 2.

C1. ~ID

The second conclusion, the fact that a model with Feel No Pain cannot use that rule if wounded by something matching the conditions for Instant Death, follows logically (via the form of argument known as 'modus ponens') because the conditions for Instant Death are the negation of the conditions under which a model can use Feel No Pain.

C2. ~FNP

If we really simplify this, to demonstrate validity via a derivation in a propositional logic, let's say that:

A = S>2T=T
B = EW=T
C = ID=T
D = FNP=T

UD. A & (B v D)
P1. A ├ C
P2. A & B ├ ~C
P3. A ├ ~D
4. B v D (Simplification, UD)
5. A (Simplification, UD)
6. ~D (Modus Ponens, P3 & 5)
7. B (Disjunctive Syllogism, 4 & 6)
8. A & B (Conjunction, 5 & 7)
C1. ~C (Modus Ponens, P2 & 8)
C2 ~D (Modus Ponens, P3 & 5)
C3. ~C & ~D (Conjunction, C1 & C2)

As you can see (if I've done this right...) the argument is valid.

Of course, the universe of discourse (UD) presumed is that there is a model meeting the conditions of the Instant Death rule, which has both Feel No Pain and Eternal Warrior.

This universe of discourse provides a model by which we can judge the argument to be sound.

The combined conclusion (C3), that the model does not suffer Instant Death but cannot use its Feel No Pain rule follows trivially.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/05/26 03:27:23


 
   
Made in be
Bonkers Buggy Driver with Rockets



Right behind you...

I think Yak has it...

I don't think Nurgle really needs this ability, and it makes them maybe a little too good, but Yak's argument is the clearest and most concise I have seen. If I could make sense of nurglitch's hieroglyphics in his post, I might have a comment for him, but alas, I'm not sure what some of the symbols he used are supposed to mean... My ignorance is staggering I suppose...

Armies in my closet:  
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





So work it out; you're obviously intelligent enough to do so

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2008/05/20 07:58:44


 
   
 
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