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Noir wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Things you don't need to survive, are essential. Food, shelter, clothing, medicine, transport.
Things that you can do without if necessary= luxuries.

Miniatures pretty clearly fall into the latter.

What, that is crazy by your own standred they aren't luxuries, as I sure most do need them to survive .

They're in the same category, economically speaking.

We seem to be having an argument based around differing semantics and definitions.

Largely based around the difference between proper and colloquial use of language.

Many people use the term 'luxury' to refer to premium - and enough people never use the term premium in that regard at all.

The confusion lies, I think, in the word 'luxurious' rather than in the word 'luxury' itself. )With a rider on terms like 'living in luxury'.)

Nevertheless, Noir is correct. Because the day you finish painting your miniatures is the day that you die....

Honestly, even as premium goods, GW has overpriced its products - better can be had for less.

Plastic models are not premium items.

And the rules... are average, at best, yet cost far more than any of their competition.

The Auld Grump

I consider Rolex's, Ferrari's, Haute Couture, Chanel Nr. 5 , Armini suits, Dom perignon, caviar, etcetera Luxury goods, i don't consider toys, comics, CD's and DVD's Luxury goods they are mass market items, even with a low income they are reachable for the consumer.

Luxury goods can only be easily bought by people with a high(er) income. If you just say that everything that is not needed for survival is a luxury good, means that toilet paper also a luxury good.

Just that GW wants to be perceived as a brand that makes Luxury items, doesn't make it so.

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I consider Rolex's, Ferrari's, Haute Couture, Chanel Nr. 5 , Armini suits, Dom perignon, caviar, etcetera Luxury goods, i don't consider toys, comics, CD's and DVD's Luxury goods they are mass market items, even with a low income they are reachable for the consumer.

Luxury goods can only be easily bought by people with a high(er) income. If you just say that everything that is not needed for survival is a luxury good, means that toilet paper also a luxury good.

Just that GW wants to be perceived as a brand that makes Luxury items, doesn't make it so.

Those are Veblen goods.

 agnosto wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I consider Rolex's, Ferrari's, Haute Couture, Chanel Nr. 5 , Armini suits, Dom perignon, caviar, etcetera Luxury goods, i don't consider toys, comics, CD's and DVD's Luxury goods they are mass market items, even with a low income they are reachable for the consumer.

Luxury goods can only be easily bought by people with a high(er) income. If you just say that everything that is not needed for survival is a luxury good, means that toilet paper also a luxury good.

Just that GW wants to be perceived as a brand that makes Luxury items, doesn't make it so.

Those are Veblen goods.

See, I learn things. I wiki'd that and I get it. Games Workshop minis are certainly not a Veblen items to me, but would they be considered them overall? I can't see plastic army men falling into that category and the financials GW released seem to imply just as much.

 TheKbob wrote:

 agnosto wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
I consider Rolex's, Ferrari's, Haute Couture, Chanel Nr. 5 , Armini suits, Dom perignon, caviar, etcetera Luxury goods, i don't consider toys, comics, CD's and DVD's Luxury goods they are mass market items, even with a low income they are reachable for the consumer.

Luxury goods can only be easily bought by people with a high(er) income. If you just say that everything that is not needed for survival is a luxury good, means that toilet paper also a luxury good.

Just that GW wants to be perceived as a brand that makes Luxury items, doesn't make it so.

Those are Veblen goods.

See, I learn things. I wiki'd that and I get it. Games Workshop minis are certainly not a Veblen items to me, but would they be considered them overall? I can't see plastic army men falling into that category and the financials GW released seem to imply just as much.

I had to Google it as well.

I agree, but I think that GW classifies themselves that way.

But does not succeed.

Hell... one of these days I want to own a Morgan (the car... not a horse)... and that is about as obvious a Veblen item as any....

The Auld Grump

Oh my word. Two pages later and we're still debating about luxury goods. Zzzzzzz

 MWHistorian wrote:
Oh my word. Two pages later and we're still debating about luxury goods. Zzzzzzz

No, two pages later and we have finished defining terms....

Honestly - that digression was simply a way for folks to try to defend GW's stance, and not even a true debate.

On the other hand, I had never heard of Veblen Goods before, so I learned something, at least.

Whether measured as a premium item or a luxury item, GW is not worth the price that they are trying to get.

The Auld Grump

Noir wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Things you don't need to survive, are essential. Food, shelter, clothing, medicine, transport.
Things that you can do without if necessary= luxuries.

Miniatures pretty clearly fall into the latter.

What, that is crazy by your own standred they aren't luxuries, as I sure most do need them to survive .

I knew someone would say that.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:

 MWHistorian wrote:
Oh my word. Two pages later and we're still debating about luxury goods. Zzzzzzz

No, two pages later and we have finished defining terms....

Honestly - that digression was simply a way for folks to try to defend GW's stance, and not even a true debate.

On the other hand, I had never heard of Veblen Goods before, so I learned something, at least.

Whether measured as a premium item or a luxury item, GW is not worth the price that they are trying to get.

The Auld Grump

Absolutely agreed.

Whether viewed as "premium" or "luxury" or whatever, there is still the issue of "value."

A person buys a high end auto not just for the perceived higher quality of the car but also for the way people perceive them as an owner of that car. They, consciously or not, what to put out the perception that they are of a certain socio-economic status. They want to set themselves apart from those who cannot afford such items.

Nobody buys GW miniatures for that reason.

So the people that buy the 'high end' (or at least pricey) GW carry cases and then walk around towns with the eagle hidden against their leg are...

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Whether measured as a premium item or a luxury item, GW is not worth the price that they are trying to get.

Yup. Which is what I said.

 Riquende wrote:
So the people that buy the 'high end' (or at least pricey) GW carry cases and then walk around towns with the eagle hidden against their leg are...

Fanboys.

To clarify, notice that they're not buying the overpriced GW carry cases to port around their Avatars of War models. These are the same guys who lap up the limited edition releases, gush over the quality of everything GW, and rarely play any other TTWG (if ever).

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
We seem to be having an argument based around differing semantics and definitions.

Anything to obfuscate the actual issue, right?

 Riquende wrote:
So the people that buy the 'high end' (or at least pricey) GW carry cases and then walk around towns with the eagle hidden against their leg are...

Nazis. Obviously.

Again, a line needs to be drawn here.

Are GW products luxury products in the economic sense?

Almost definitely.

Are GW a luxury brand?

Almost definitely not.

Almost everything to do with any hobby or pastime is likely to be considered a luxury good, as hobbies are what we do with our spare time and income.

GW defies classification as a luxury brand by almost every metric outside of their own assertion and the pricing.

I think a lot of the misconception comes from resale value too... many (most?) luxury items tend to appreciate (or depreciate more slowly) than common items. In that regard, it seems that many other manufacturers have a leg up on GW items, which generally depreciate in value the more they are used/modeled/painted. (and i say generally because for every 99 of us that destroy the resale value of their minis, there is 1 superb painter that just likes the aesthetic that the pose-able sculptures offer, and can on occasion make a profit off the endeavor).

it also doesnt help that the GW rules churn tends to make unit options that were amazing and sought after in the yesteryear completely lackluster and undesirable over time. This is where the other companies are really showing their youthful adaptation. PP, FOW, etc, all offer lines of minis that offer a single unit with no weapons options, and then give the customization aspect through adding additional models to that unit. This means that winterguard are winterguard are winterguard, and they retain value based on the fact that they are easy to trade because everyones are the same.

I guess I can justify the multi-page debate on "luxury" since it is an emotional decision.

Kirby justifies high prices of his product as some high-end status symbol "needed" items that has such high production "value" <cough> so we as customers can somehow justify the purchase. I am unsure what audience he perceives as holding his product in that illustrious high regard making us want to be part of the "in" crowd.

The problem is, unlike all the various companies he likes to compare with: his product is not better in executed quality than his competitors.
So he is trying to rely on brand-name alone to justify higher prices, how very 80's mentality of him.
Even Coke could only go so-far with that.

When I can buy a better detailed tank for half the price complete with metal and etched parts some thought process of "when is high price, too high?" should start happening.
The financial report may be the indicator needed to show "what the market can bare" has been reached.

What they also forget is many models do get dropped from a Codex revision in an effort to make room for new model sales but will devalue the models as well since you never know what will be the next one gone (SW Santa sleigh any time soon? PLEASE?). It seems to put emphasis on spending the money on core units and the new fancy models may be gone next year so do not bother.

Leaning on the "boys before toys" rule with armies lately due to the publication instability and it has not steered me wrong but GW is not getting much cash out of me.
I do not think I am all that unique in this stance.

I will go back to saving my coin for luxuries like Scotch and Whisky which also has no place in the required things in life...

I've said it before and it bears repeating:

Imagine if McDonalds started to sell $10 "gourmet" hamburgers that were their normal hamburgers with a better bun, and put out literature saying their burgers are gourmet burgers that you can't get anywhere else.

That's basically what GW is doing. Their figures are cheap 28mm plastic with decent to good quality (quality subjective) but priced as though they were large-scale pewter (or more expensive) figures and advertised as having this amazing quality that justifies the high price.

The problem is that Kirby presents himself as the second coming of Steve Jobs and GW as the Apple of their industry. Once you read thes sort of things from him often enough, their pricing and decision-making starts to make a sick sort of sense...


I feel dirty.

 agnosto wrote:
The problem is that Kirby presents himself as the second coming of Steve Jobs and GW as the Apple of their industry. Once you read thes sort of things from him often enough, their pricing and decision-making starts to make a sick sort of sense...


I feel dirty.

I'm seriously considering buying a Baneblade, I feel worse.

On the plus side, my last 1,000 points of IG has not been from GW, and they've not recieved a penny for new sets of rules since 6th.

 Selym wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
The problem is that Kirby presents himself as the second coming of Steve Jobs and GW as the Apple of their industry. Once you read thes sort of things from him often enough, their pricing and decision-making starts to make a sick sort of sense...


I feel dirty.

I'm seriously considering buying a Baneblade, I feel worse.

On the plus side, my last 1,000 points of IG has not been from GW, and they've not recieved a penny for new sets of rules since 6th.

Psst. Ebay. And it'll be cheaper too...

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
The problem is that Kirby presents himself as the second coming of Steve Jobs and GW as the Apple of their industry. Once you read thes sort of things from him often enough, their pricing and decision-making starts to make a sick sort of sense...


I feel dirty.

I'm seriously considering buying a Baneblade, I feel worse.

On the plus side, my last 1,000 points of IG has not been from GW, and they've not recieved a penny for new sets of rules since 6th.

Psst. Ebay. And it'll be cheaper too...

Yea, but I want the entire box of sprues, and have a certainty of replacements if it was produced wrong

And I think we're done here. See y'all in another 5 months.