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After playing a good deal of games of 5th I'm noticing something that is ruining the game for me. Cover. Everything has cover, no exceptions. A unit of dudes in the way? Cover. Some of your guys shooting past a small wall? Cover. Standing out in the open? Cover. Shooting blasts? Cover. Ordinance? Cover. Low walls perhaps? Cover. Pistols before the assault? Cover. Tall grass? Cover. Is it Friday? Cover. I said is it Friday? Cover.

The reason cover is so bad for me personally is my guys already have a 3+. They don't really benefit from cover except against high AP weapons which there are little of in my play area. On top of that I run a lot of high Str/AP weapons for vehicles. Why does tall grass make plasma raining down on your head not deadly? I have no idea. Why do some shorter guys infront of you make a melta not deadly? Ask GW, they will probably justify it... space grass and lack of communication (No one can yell "Duck for a sec!"). A lot of Xenos and IG with 5+ saves now all have 4+ or 3+ saves all the time. There honestly hasn't been an exception for me except for 2 shots I took with plasma canons against some orks who needed to move to take an objective.

What I really want to know is how are your personal experiences with cover going? Are you benefiting a great deal? Are you loosing out? Are you like me? Like my opponents?

I think until 6th Ed comes out, I'll be calling this game CoverHammer.

It benefits the crap out of me. I play Dark Eldar. We hate wearing armor. So the covers saves are awesome for my pointy little troopers

Agreed!

Tone down the terrain you use.

After reading this it dawned on me that MEQ's pay a premium for their 3+ save and all the 4-6+ save armies are on equal terms if they just stand in some terrain or behind another squad.

So far the worst piece of terrain we have used. The good 'ol forest. It is useless. Opponent can see through it. As my buddy put it today "It's an immobile squad"

Played a game yesterday, using the cover we would normally have used for 4th ed. We have some rather tall terrain pieces (3" between levels") and that negates many of the cover saves. TLOS FTW.

Worked fine for us. Unlike you, I do face a lot of tooled up anti-Meq armies in my area. I'm now thankful for extra cover saves.

If yo don't like it, don't play. Don't whine about it on the net.

Tall grass should only be giving a 6+ cover, 5+ at the most if its really thick like hedge rows.

The best mix of cover types in 4th ed had a wood or two and a building or two to block LOS. It also had a collection of craters, walls and detritus to offer cover saves. This allowed a skilfully played, mobile army to gain a lot of advantage from cover while denying the same to his opponent.

From the games I’ve played so far in 5th, this same mix of cover doesn’t really work too well. Where woods and other area terrain used to block LOS, now it just provides a minor save. Meanwhile things that only provided a save in some circumstances now seem to provide cover to large numbers of units. The result is every unit seemingly able to claim a 4+ save, while it’s near impossible to actually block LOS. This makes manoeuvre largely irrelevant, and removes much of the skill of the game.

I think the answer is to include another building or two to do the LOS blocking that woods and other area terrain used to do. At the same time you take some of the bits of minor cover off the board, making it harder to claim a 4+ save.

It’ll likely take a while to figure out exactly what the best balance is.

First game I played in 5e, my army had 78 str 6 shots at range for anti-infantry....with a combination of AP 6 and 4.

Screw cover.

Back in 3rd there wasn't this problem with true line of sight, but then again there was none of this going to ground nonsense. Haven't played yet so I reserve jugment and sit hopeful of the new rules. However it is a bit of a kick in the teeth with those new trees I've got sitting ready... maybe I'll pile up undergrowth to turn them back into 'area tererain' rather than an immobile squad.....

the new rules are making you have to change how you play. we all new this was comming. we were all warned about it. some of us payed attention.

High strength, low AP, low shot weapons now lose out to mediun strength, high AP, High shot weapons.

its now better to take a heavy bolter than a plasma gun against eveything except terminator spam armies.

anything extra that gives a 4+ or worse save is useless because you will get it anyway.

flamer weapons become very good. as the only things that can effectively kill hordes in cover they will be much run far more often then they are now.

inferno cannon are like gold dust. they kill everything in equal measure.


the game has changed. stop whining about it and adapt. the rest of us are.

Having started playing Rules of Engagement recently, they basically have an opinion that there is always cover on a battlefield, so to me this reflects a more realistic approach to fighting.

@Deadshane, What the hell army were you playing?

I vote eldar... he just comes across as an eldar player.

Wolfstan wrote:Having started playing Rules of Engagement recently, they basically have an opinion that there is always cover on a battlefield, so to me this reflects a more realistic approach to fighting.

Disregarding that realism doesn't apply to futuristic fantasy, how does tall grass or a low wall make a plasma cannon more survivable? These things should be blocking bolter bullets but tall grass is like an umbrella to plasma cannons?

The new go to the ground rule can be used anytime you are getting fired at. All you have to do is declare it and it either gives you cover (out in the open) or improves your cover by one. Next turn you can't do anything but assault. So if an assaulty squad is very close but taking some heavy fire they will go for cover then assault you anyway after getting their cover saves.

I know I probably sound very whiny but I'm just kind of miffed I started playing CSM first instead of Eldar. I wanted to play an Eldar pathfinders/wrathguard army when I first started but I didn't in favor of spiky marines.

Typeline wrote:

Wolfstan wrote:
Disregarding that realism doesn't apply to futuristic fantasy, how does tall grass or a low wall make a plasma cannon more survivable? These things should be blocking bolter bullets but tall grass is like an umbrella to plasma cannons?

Its effectively providing cover from being seen. They don't know exactly where to shoot at you.

The new go to the ground rule can be used anytime you are getting fired at. All you have to do is declare it and it either gives you cover (out in the open) or improves your cover by one. Next turn you can't do anything but assault. So if an assaulty squad is very close but taking some heavy fire they will go for cover then assault you anyway after getting their cover saves.

Cool. I'll have to see if I can use that rule with my demons.

oh so your anger at the poor codex is actually being misdirected at the new edition of the rules.

really cover is more about not being seen than not being hurt.

a lascannon is going to go through a brick wall whatever happens, thats what theyre meant to do. plasma cannon will incinerate whatever they hit, thats fine as well. if your not behind that brick wall, or nowhere near a plasma cannon blast then it wont effect you.

the addition of the cover save is a bit of a simplification on GWs part and is well engraved into the designer mindset. a reduction to hit would be more realisitic, but this throws up a whole hoast of other problems.

a cover save isnt so much about a bit of wall stopping a bullet, (even modern weapons have pretty good penetration so you'll be damn sure that armour piercing, exsplosive bullets will be even better) its about them being shot at here you arent.

Think I said it before in another thread...in 3rd and 4th editions, battlefields became heavily forested and mostly flat. They're about to get hillier with more man-made structures.

The terrain collections will need to adjust a little to 5th, that's all.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:After reading this it dawned on me that MEQ's pay a premium for their 3+ save and all the 4-6+ save armies are on equal terms if they just stand in some terrain or behind another squad.

MEQ's actually don't pay THAT much of a premium for that 3+ save. I don't have time for the math breakdown now, but they're much more point-efficient troops than pretty much anything else out there.

For those who don't understand why tall grass provides a cover save, it's not about stopping the shot, it's about being harder to hit when part of you can't be seen.


A reminder: Please keep it civil. You may disagree with other posters or be upset about the rules, but be polite and mature about it (this is NOT directed at any one poster). Thanks!

Regwon wrote:the new rules are making you have to change how you play. we all new this was comming. we were all warned about it. some of us payed attention.

High strength, low AP, low shot weapons now lose out to mediun strength, high AP, High shot weapons.

its now better to take a heavy bolter than a plasma gun against eveything except terminator spam armies.

anything extra that gives a 4+ or worse save is useless because you will get it anyway.

flamer weapons become very good. as the only things that can effectively kill hordes in cover they will be much run far more often then they are now.

inferno cannon are like gold dust. they kill everything in equal measure.


the game has changed. stop whining about it and adapt. the rest of us are.

QFT. Time to dust off the Holy Heavy Bolter and start tossing high velocity soda cans at people again. Volume of fire is again more important. Guard are once again a viable force. Get used to it.

Personally I love how much cover there is (Yeah, I play Guard, what of it?!), but if you think about it, there's not THAT much more cover. Ok, so everything behind a ruin gets a cover save. As opposed to not being a legal target. Their survivability has dropped.

A squad hunkering behind another squad gets a 4+ save, whereas before the shooting unit might've failed their target priority test, and thus not shot at that unit at all!

But.. then again.. vehicles get cover saves... auuugh. The thought still makes me drool.... vehicle cover saves.... auuugh. I'm going to start bringing Chimera walls more often. Especially in Apoc. Protect the Baneblades, little useless Chimeras!

From a rules design perspective, and I can't prove this so take it with a grain of salt, the preponderance of cover is a response to 3-4th editions, especially the tournament scene, when terrain meant a tree and a couple of barricades. If the designers assume your table is going to be an open plain with a couple of ruins, then these rules make sense--they make the scantness of cover meaningful. Having said that, it's probably not a bad thing to have cover confer such a bonus so often. If your tabletop is covered in terrain, well, guess what: it's hard to get a good bead on a target if he's ducking through the hedgerows.

Darrian13 wrote:@Deadshane, What the hell army were you playing?

Red has it right, this was my eldar list that pulled it off....

However, with all the cover, I'm of the opinion that one is better off to 'rapid-fire' people to death rather than bust their AP.

My Eldar are doing it..
Grey Knights 'try' to do it...
I'm figuring how Dark Angels can do it...
I'm building a Guard army that should be scary on this theory of the new rules.

The new go to the ground rule can be used anytime you are getting fired at. All you have to do is declare it and it either gives you cover (out in the open) or improves your cover by one. Next turn you can't do anything but assault. So if an assaulty squad is very close but taking some heavy fire they will go for cover then assault you anyway after getting their cover saves.

Actually, if you go to ground, you can't do anything at all except the possibility of falling back. You may not assault, but will fight normally if assaulted.

Capt K

Deadshane1 wrote:

Darrian13 wrote:@Deadshane, What the hell army were you playing?

Red has it right, this was my eldar list that pulled it off....

However, with all the cover, I'm of the opinion that one is better off to 'rapid-fire' people to death rather than bust their AP.

[snip]
I'm building a Guard army that should be scary on this theory of the new rules.

HB/AC spam, I suppose? Too bad the Exterminator is currently of dubious legality; I'd prefer it over other varients for it's dakka.

What you had before was a game of marines, and other armies tailored to kill marines. I think partly the tonsa cover idea is to sort of even the field and get folks to start adding more variety to their armies. Which really isn't a bad thing. Now you can still load up on plasma if you want, but even a little gaunt is gonna get a save from it. if you want your shooting to be effective, seems you need quantity instead of quality now.

it's a whole new game, gonna take some getting used to.

Valhallan42nd wrote:

Deadshane1 wrote:

Darrian13 wrote:@Deadshane, What the hell army were you playing?

Red has it right, this was my eldar list that pulled it off....

However, with all the cover, I'm of the opinion that one is better off to 'rapid-fire' people to death rather than bust their AP.

[snip]
I'm building a Guard army that should be scary on this theory of the new rules.

HB/AC spam, I suppose? Too bad the Exterminator is currently of dubious legality; I'd prefer it over other varients for it's dakka.

HB's (and lascannon) probably...I'm not too keen on the imperium's "flexible" weaponry-missle launchers, autocannon, ect.

I like to have the most punch for my money. Lascannons and HB's all the way...and LOTS of HB's.

9 warwalkers with scatterlasers? and 2 guardian squads with scatter lasers too?

area terrian was overused in 4th and glad it is gone. I see the return of the scotchbrite hedges. easy to make and blocks line of site.

http://www.geocities.com/charger3604bbl/Hedges_and_Fences.html

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:After reading this it dawned on me that MEQ's pay a premium for their 3+ save and all the 4-6+ save armies are on equal terms if they just stand in some terrain or behind another squad.

If you stand in terrain, you deserve a cover save. If you stand behind another squad, then your opponent is foolish for not killing the guys in front first. I mean really, how hard is it? If you are so worried about back row guys getting cover from the ones in front, just blow holes in the screen with something else first. Is it really difficult to get the firepower focused on thoes front guys? They are the closest ones to you, so everything and their mother should be in range to shoot them. Once there are holes in the screen and you are no longer shooting though them, then its open season on the guys in back. Sure it means you have to work out some target priority and plan which of your units fires first, but you're going to want to kill those close guys sooner or later anyway. Right?

Phoenix wrote:

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:After reading this it dawned on me that MEQ's pay a premium for their 3+ save and all the 4-6+ save armies are on equal terms if they just stand in some terrain or behind another squad.

If you stand in terrain, you deserve a cover save. If you stand behind another squad, then your opponent is foolish for not killing the guys in front first. I mean really, how hard is it? If you are so worried about back row guys getting cover from the ones in front, just blow holes in the screen with something else first. Is it really difficult to get the firepower focused on thoes front guys? They are the closest ones to you, so everything and their mother should be in range to shoot them. Once there are holes in the screen and you are no longer shooting though them, then its open season on the guys in back. Sure it means you have to work out some target priority and plan which of your units fires first, but you're going to want to kill those close guys sooner or later anyway. Right?

Yeah, 'cause it's a) so easy; and b) so useful to throw enough firepower at 50 4 pt conscripts to remove them, in order to get at the multiple heavy weapons squads hiding behind them.... (And before the inevitable "they're ld 5; just force a break test" point comes up, I'll remind people that a rerollable ld 9 check is hard to crack, and certainly not to be relied upon.)

It's a bizarre change, particularly in combination with the "Run" rules, which allows up-close-and-nasty forces to approach with much greater confidence than in v4. Coupled with the "no consolidating into HtH" rule, the emphasis definitely seems to be on close-range firepower, as that's the only place on the battlefield where guns will be decisive - the rest of the time, efficacy is dropped by ~50%.

Ekranoplan wrote:Tall grass should only be giving a 6+ cover, 5+ at the most if its really thick like hedge rows.

Grass and hedges offer concealment not cover. There is a very big difference. I guess GW were trying to represent both with the rule for 'cover' though