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So I think I found the perfect vehicle to serve as an inquisitor's armored limo, an Italiari 1/35 german armored car. It will count as a Chimera.

Despite my aversion to using Nazi stuff I have to admit this is a perfect 40k vehicle, big, ugly impractical, hulking. Just the thing for a sunday drive. Besides I won't be using it to recreate Nazi armies.

Right now I'm torn on whether or not to do the turret or just have a pop-up weapon from the interior. Any thoughts?

When I saw the title I knew it would be one of your modelling articles.

I'd say go the current turrent with a differnt gun barrel (something beefier) as you are trying to create a chimera stand in, not an open top vehicle ala a salamander.

as Gonads suggested, use the turret with different weapons.
or, i'd suggest trying a Predator turret.
i think it's a good limo choice.

You know in the picture its a regular German army vehicle, not so much a Nazi vehicle. There is a difference.

Its kinda like saying vehicles driven by the Americans in WW2 by the *regular army* were vehicles of the party in the white house at the time.

therefore don't feel bad using German vehicles, just dont put swastikas on them

Edit: I know on some those bars are just roll bars, but they look kinda futile here, so they may be for the radio.

They might look good if you covered them in something canvas looking, as a soft top.

to be honest mate, your not going to paint the Swas on them, so it doesent matter, it will be used as something different.
and looks like it could turn out well.

The mesh thing is for hanging wet clothes. This vehicle is a panzergrenadier mobile laundry.

If you want the armoured limo look, leave the turret off and make a sun-roof with a pop-up weapon.

If you keep the turret, replace the machine guns with twin flamers or something.

You should put rivets, skulls and eagles on either way. Someone did an article about rivets.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/wiki/en/Adding_Studs_to_Your_Models

I think the mesh thing is used as a protection of sorts against grenades.



Though chances are I may be wrong.

How would that stop a grenade? It would have to be covered or something.

Im pretty sure its for radio on your picture too. Thats one of those tanks that lays radio cable.

"The mesh thing is for hanging wet clothes. This vehicle is a panzergrenadier mobile laundry."

dang it! they told me it was a hanging pots and pans rack!
i swear a salesperson wil say anything to sell a car...

i was going to suggest a heavy bolter for the turret.
but what weapon were you going with if you keep the turret?

GMMStudios wrote:How would that stop a grenade? It would have to be covered or something.

Im pretty sure its for radio on your picture too. Thats one of those tanks that lays radio cable.

Well, here's the quote under the image.

"An early model British Mark I "male" tank, named C-15, near Thiepval, 25 September 1916. The tank is probably in reserve for the Battle of Thiepval Ridge which began on 26 September. The tank is fitted with the wire "grenade shield" and steering tail, both features discarded in the next models.

Photograph by Lt. Ernest Brooks.
Imperial War Museum catalogue number Q 2486."

This wouldn't be the first time Wikipedia may be wrong though.

THE MYSTERY HAS BEEN SOLVED:

click here

Feel free to ignore all my garbage about it being a grenade defense, or laugh at my ignorance if you so wish.

Some armoured cars had grenade-deflecting mesh on the turrets. It looks like chicken wire.

http://www.armortek.co.uk/assets/sdkfz%20222.pdf

I personally like the pop-up weapon idea

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:When I saw the title I knew it would be one of your modelling articles.

I'd say go the current turrent with a differnt gun barrel (something beefier) as you are trying to create a chimera stand in, not an open top vehicle ala a salamander.

But I'd also like something that looks 'street legal'. So right not I'm thinking of popping off one of the side hatches on the engine and having a heavy bolter peek out of there and covering the big turret hole with a hatch and having a multilaser coming out of that one.

GMMStudios wrote:You know in the picture its a regular German army vehicle, not so much a Nazi vehicle. There is a difference.

Its kinda like saying vehicles driven by the Americans in WW2 by the *regular army* were vehicles of the party in the white house at the time.

therefore don't feel bad using German vehicles, just dont put swastikas on them

from time to time people will come through here looking to make 'WWII German-themed armies' and they will bend over backwards claiming it's just their respect for the Wehrmacht and not any sympathy towards the Nazis that drives them and therefore everything is kosher (so to speak).

I regard that as BS. The Nazi party was the state and had complete control of its apparatus especially the military. Trying to divide the 'WWII German army' from the Nazi party is like trying to split the People's Liberation Army from the Communist Party of China. Showing sympathy or admiration from the Wehrmacht requires ignoring, well everything they did and everything they stood for.

So yeah, not every soldier was a Nazi party member but it's perfectly fair to describe the military as a whole as the Nazi army. Just as not every PLA soldier is a communist party member but they are a communist military answering to a communist government.

So yeah, I hate the idea of using a Nazi tank as even the basis of a conversion but it's by far the closest thing I have found to my vision of a 40k street vehicle.

I'll do some US M8 armored cars as penance.

As a historical gamer I often see the issues some people have with why/how armies of questionable morals are presented. The most obvious is in this case, the Nazis, but there were plenty of other groups in history that committed major atrocities. This brings to this quote from your own response:

Trying to divide the 'WWII German army' from the Nazi party is like trying to split the People's Liberation Army from the Communist Party of China.

Your profile says you are from Red China, so simply by proximity the issue is made important to you, and so you have learned what the difference between these two are. The majority of people in the world don't have the first clue what the differences between the PLA and Communist Party would be. Just keep thatin perspective: what could be massively important to you, the next person may not give a rat's @$$ about it nor ever care to learn.

I agree that some people give some serious BS reasons as to why they want to make their 40K army look like a bunch of nasty Germans. They probably get off on the attention they get from being "shocking". More acutely all they know about the history of the period is what pathetic dribble they learned during the few hours their High School history course spent on it, topped off with more tidbits of stereotypes provided by popular culture entertainment. On the flip side when you argue/complain about them you need to be careful you don't come across as the whiny-emo-gamer-kid. When you are trying to argue against them by using vague generalizations like:

The Nazi party was the state and had complete control of its apparatus especially the military.... Showing sympathy or admiration from the Wehrmacht requires ignoring, well everything they did and everything they stood for.... So yeah, not every soldier was a Nazi party member but it's perfectly fair to describe the military as a whole as the Nazi army.

It shows that you are just as under educated on the topic as they are. Don't use generalizations, especially on something like this that can get people all worked up over it! If you have a problem with people making lame BS justifications as to why they think it's okay to play as Nazis in 40K you really should do some historical research about them so you can make a much more solid argument against these people. Nothing shuts people's arguments down more than proving you know far more about the topic then they do.


Onto the model;

This was a German reconnaissance vehicle used in the early parts of the war. The large set of "roll bars" above the hull was part of the high powered radio.

Some German tanks carried a layer of spaced armor along the sides of the hull and turret that was designed to cause the impact fuses of anti tank weapons to detonate prematurely and expend their chemical energy before hitting the main hull of the tank. It worked good against stuff like RPGs and Bazookas but the kinetic energy AT rounds fired by high velocity guns simply tore right through it. Later in the war they needed to conserve materials so a metal mesh was used instead of sheets because the mesh used less metal to make.

It shows that you are just as under educated on the topic as they are. Don't use generalizations, especially on something like this that can get people all worked up over it! If you have a problem with people making lame BS justifications as to why they think it's okay to play as Nazis in 40K you really should do some historical research about them so you can make a much more solid argument against these people. Nothing shuts people's arguments down more than proving you know far more about the topic then they do.

Dude my whole point is I've staked out some pretty extreme ground on the subject over the years. We've had a few posters who come in wanting to do SS themed armies claiming they're not 'Nazis' and I'm always there to jump down their throat.

So I do feel a tinge of guilt at using their stuff even for a one off conversion.

I h8 Nazis.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:
I regard that as BS. The Nazi party was the state and had complete control of its apparatus especially the military. Trying to divide the 'WWII German army' from the Nazi party is like trying to split the People's Liberation Army from the Communist Party of China. Showing sympathy or admiration from the Wehrmacht requires ignoring, well everything they did and everything they stood for.

This 3 lines are BS.
If you don't know a theme,just leave it to others.Talk about your PLA if you want to,but do us a favour and be quiet about WW II
with your political colored view.

So yeah, not every soldier was a Nazi party member but it's perfectly fair to describe the military as a whole as the Nazi army. Just as not every PLA soldier is a communist party member but they are a communist military answering to a communist government.

Its perfectly ignorant to relate partys of a few thousand members with millions of soldiers.Great work

I'll do some US M8 armored cars as penance.

I'll hope for it.
Stick to american or british vehicles if its still a WWII vehicle after converting to 40k

I don't have any problem with you jumping all over the Naziphiles, however I think in your own extremist intolerance has you slathering against all things German, an all or nothing approach.

The Nazis were a bunch of thugs who managed to seize more and more power over the course of about 20 years through various means. They basically told the German populous what they wanted to hear until the Nazi party grew to a point where it's power base was simply too strong for people to resist and by that time they were the government. During the 30s a lot of people saw what was going on, mostly those in academia, and fled the country, which is a big part of why the US and Britain had so many good scientists during WWII. To make things way over simplified you had a group of vile bullies who had seized power unopposed because they told people what they wanted to hear and those who opposed were often killed.

After WWI Germany was shattered. It was suffering a horrible depression and generally the citizens sense of pride in their country was very low. The Nazis lived up to their campaign promises of rebuilding a shattered Germany, to revitalize the nation to it's formal glory. People wanted to hear this, they wanted to live in a strong country, so the minor shadowy deals tended to get overlooked by a population that was looking to rebuild. Add into this mix the very strong, very old antisemitism that was rife in central Europe. The Nazis had an instant and convenient scape goat, the Jews. So you had the broken people of a broken nation who were looking desperately for a savior, along comes this group with a dynamic leader with a plan to rebuild the country and a message that it was someone else's fault. People ate it up so fast they never saw the poison core.

Well why didn't they just all leave or overthrow the government? They couldn't. Why not? Closing borders and Gun Control. The Nazi government really started to cut down on the amount of people being allowed to leave Germany, and just because you can leave your country doesn't mean you can actually afford to! It costs a helluva lot, and not just in money, to uproot your entire life and family and move to a whole new nation and start over again. The Nazis took away the people's ability to openly fight the government. Also, the Nazis were not concerned with notions like a fair trial, they simply showed up in the middle of the night and cut your throat. Who do you go to when the police are the executioners, they've taken your guns and won't let you leave? By this point the German citizens who were not backing the Nazis where scared into obedience. Remember, there was no 1st Amendment right to free speech in Nazi Germany. If the Nazi's didn't want some nasty deed getting into the papers, it didn't. There were no ifs, ands or buts, if you tired to talk, you were killed. By then, the Nazi party was the ruling political party, by force, of the German nation. In no way was the entire population of Germany involved with the Nazi party. While they could not resist, many did not support it either.

In Germany's armed forces you had a division. The regular army (referred to as Heer forces) tended to see themselves as professional soldiers for their country, not for a political party. The SS units were the military units of the Nazi party, and since they so loved their government masters they got the best kit. The regular army was stuck however, having to listen to the orders of the ruling government. There were some times of very tense dealings between regular army units and personnel and the Nazi/SS commanders and units.

So there is a ridiculously short summation. I doubt it will change your views at all, but hopefully someone else reading this may find it interesting. Lords knows that unless you take a specific history class, that's more than what they teach you in school anymore. The Nazis were horrible, but not everyone in Germany at that time or in it's army was a Nazi.

MEANWHILE, BACK IN POLITICALLY NEUTRAL TERRITORY


So yeah, I'd want to put some wider tires on that thing. It just looks too narrow for my taste. Like a giant bodsled.

Aw give him a break. You know the term "Hun" as applied to Germans comes directly from Kaiser Wilhelm II's mouth after a speech he made to the departing German contingent sent to help put down the Boxer rebellion. (a good example given the Huns had been a thorn in the side of the old Chinese Empire for centuries before they turned their attentions westward - ol' Bill just wasn't the most diplomatic of gents) The only good thing the Germans ever did for China was leave their brewey at their colony at Tsingtao. (Western spelling) (and I guess supplying the Nationalist army with Mausers, POS-lil Panzer Is and those sweet-ass uniforms just prior to WWII would fall into the same category, but those guys all got chased off to Taiwan so that doesn't really count) The atrocities committed by the Germans in putting down the Boxers were considered extreme by their fellow Europeans even for the time, when Chinamen were seen as "damned yellow monkeys" (edit - I actually think that that particular quote was applied against the Japanese, but given China was seen as a more backwards version of Japan at the time, the sentiment was probably about accurate) even by the most progressive of honkies. Even in an age of brutalitiy and imperialism, the nastiness of that particular campaign as waged by that particular part of the allied army was legend. So give the guy a break. I wouldn't ask a Pole to love a Russian or a Croatian or Bosnian Muslim to love a Serb - I sure wouldn't expect a Chinaman to love a Kraut either. All that proves is that he DOES know his history.

Back on topic:

I don't know my hardware that well but I can tell you the vehicle in question is a command vehicle and that funky-@$$ thing on top is a radio aerial. Wire mesh I do know WAS used against grenades by the Americans and Australians in Indochina - it does nothing against the shrapnel, but given the idea of throwing a grenade is that it explodes AFTER it lands, it's a lot safer having it blow up OUTSIDE the hut/vehicle than inside it.

Kid_Kyoto wrote:Dude my whole point is I've staked out some pretty extreme ground on the subject over the years. We've had a few posters who come in wanting to do SS themed armies claiming they're not 'Nazis' and I'm always there to jump down their throat.

So I do feel a tinge of guilt at using their stuff even for a one off conversion.

I wouldn't worry about it. Hypochrisy is nothing to be ashamed of.

If you don't like it, just use a BA-20 or a Rolls-Royce Armoured Car as the basis for your conversion in stead.

if you're going to stick with the German car, why not flip it backwards, so that the rear is the front and vice-versa?

Otherwise, I'd look for WWI armored cars etc. I think Sloppy Jalopy makes some, as does Copplestone.

Agamemnon2 wrote: If you don't like it, just use a BA-20 or a Rolls-Royce Armoured Car as the basis for your conversion in stead.

Because of course, the Russians and British have never commited ANY atrocities in history !

Hey KK - good to know that good old 'Universe is Black and White' philosophy of yours is still going strong!
I know you well enough to know that anything I say will not change your opinion, but that doesn't make your opinion right either
Just pulling your leg for old times sake - good to see some familiar 'faces' still around !

As for my opinion on the Nazi-German thing, Swordbreaker has put my point of view for me, admirably, with one extra point - don't be so quick to write off all WWII German 'stuff' as Nazi and therefore bad, as virtually every post war nation has used the German technology of the time to improve it's own, with little or no guilt trip, from Night Vision technology, to Camouflage techniques to Infantry weapons, not to mention rocketry (and the list goes on...) - Dismiss it all as simply Nazi affiliated, and you'd have to decry almost every nation in the world by association.

I've only been back for a few posts and already I'm into history debates, oh how things change, the more they stay the same ! Oh it's good to be back !

Any, back on topic - ditch the radio mast assembly for starters.

Ditching the kit turret will make it look less obviously like a German 6 rad armoured car. Have you tried a chimera turret on the top to see how it looks instead?

Don't poke the gun out of the engine hatches, keep it up high, say where the crew compartment visors are on the front, keep it to one side, and a visor to the other side - try the drivers visor from a chimera instead of the kit one - will help make it look more 40K, less 'German - Polish Invasion era'.

Definately needs wider wheels.

Why not clip down the lasgun mounts from the back of a Chimera, and add them to the back portion of the crew compartment (rear sides and back panel)

If this bit of the model superstructure is too low to add these kind of bits, you can always add an extra top portion from plasticard to follow the vehicles contours upwards.

What are you doing about repping the troop hatches? Putting one on the back ? I'd also ditch the model hatches and use IG ones.

Whatever you use for wheels, on the rears, put some plasticard across the mudguard assembly to make it look less flimsy, and more armoured.

Why not chop up some of the boxy Chimera side panels (the ones that fix to the outside of the track units), and add them to the Limo as external storage compartments?

I think that's my idea's bin all emptied for now.


As for M8's ? Forget it - too weedy. If you want a really beefy looking armoured car (that's not German ), get hold of the Italeri Staghound - designed by the US, but used by the British - is larger than M5 light tanks, and has wheels like a tractor !

Holy crap, let KK do what he wants. This has turned into once giant "my opinion is right and yours is wrong thread". Did any of you actually live in germany during WW2? No i didnt think so..

My grand parents were jewish, they stayed in germeny all the way until the end of the war, hiding out to avoid the nazis sending them to a deathcamp. Alot of my family wasnt so lucky. Now if you were to ask them about the german people during that time they would say maybe 10% of the german people werent activily helping the nazi party by turning in jews. Yes they were doing it out of fear, but still, caling the SS to have your jewish friend taken away is pretty messed up. Plus, because of a ton of reasons I wont even go into, they have an entirely diffrent view of germany and the nazis.

Onto the modeling topic, as it should be...

I think the kit works great for what you want to use it as. I think with enough gubbinz all over it, and some GW weapons, it will work perfectly as an inquis armored limo.

...isn't Kyoto from New York or something and working in China? o_O
Or am I remembering some urban legend from Old Dakka?

Wildrider wrote:

Agamemnon2 wrote: If you don't like it, just use a BA-20 or a Rolls-Royce Armoured Car as the basis for your conversion in stead.

Because of course, the Russians and British have never commited ANY atrocities in history !

Hey, KK intimated that his problem was specifically with the Nazi thing. Also let's face it, a lot fewer people would give you flak for having a Rolls-Royce AC even though it took place in WWI, the Irish Civil War and WW2. And as bad as the WW2 USSR was, they're not as automatically demonized like WW2 Germans are. This doesn't have as much to do with historical facts as the views people have of the forces involved.

Personally, I'd use whatever kit I wanted without any compunctions on the historical precedents. I already have a Krupp truck towing my thudd-guns and at the moment I'm working on an Alkett Minenraumer to turn into a Hellhound. Then again, I'm not the one telling people what they can or cannot do modelling-wise. If they want Balkenkreutzes and Svastikas on their tanks, it's their choice, and it's not my place to tell them they're having badwrongfun.

My only problem with the model is that it screans WWII!. I tried converting an SK251 some time ago and ended up thorwing it away it was too anti-40K. Probably a WWI model would fit better with your inquisitor. The Rolls above does in my POV. Other options already posted are the russian interwars armored cars with lots of rivets.

M.

That limo has not enough gothic. Maybe you could decorate it with CoD buildings as you
are wont to do.

I like the model and think it will fit well with most 40k stuff.

However, your dislike of everything German is interesting. You have to have some respect for the Wecrmacht (sp?), they revolutionized warfare and also introduced the Blitzkrieg, which I am proud to say, has been used sucessfully for many years by most countries. Try again with your ideas then make more models.

ON TOPIC PLEASE

edit1 - actually there's an awful lot of energy here on that whole Wehrmacht thing. I think this warrants its own thread in the OT forum...

edit2 - http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/217709.page
that oughta do the trick. Comments on how Kyoto can make a cool vehicle here, comments on the old Wehrmacht traditions of bayonetting pregnant women in the stomach and firebombing civilians there.
edit3 - my bad that'd actually be the Luftwaffe - their role in blitzkrieg was to choke the streets with corpses and panicked civilians...but keep all that stuff OVER THERE so the OP can get USEFUL feedback HERE without having the thread LOCKED.

edit4 - back on topic again:

I like the popup weapon idea best. Just have a passel of boys pointing gunz outta the empty hole in the top and add some deranged lookind Grots holding on with wrenches etc. Larger wheels and/or some kind of deathrolla thingie would look cool too.

If I was commissioned to design a vehicle for the Nazi party, I wouldn't be thinking in the spirit of the Nazi party.

I wouldn't be thinking, 'Gee, this would do [see forum posting rules] in great!', or, 'Let's see the brown-eyes run from THIS!'
But chances are I'm a WAR PROFITEER, something just as ugly as whatever pile of innocent victims you are most sympathetic to.
(EDIT: Chosen Sons of Israel, then. Incidentally, Modern Israel is very relevant to the direction this thread has taken. Kind of like if America's own Nazi party.)


If you can take up Warhammer as a hobby and cope with its themes, then you can deal with someone painting swastikas on their vehicles. If atrocity is the factor, then every other race in the 40K universe should be even more taboo. Now I knew a lot of 'neo-Nazis' in Australia (used to live near Canberra, the drug, porn and explosives warehouse we keep next to our Parliament House), but they were just part of that obvious minority of folk who were grossly misled on what was socially acceptable to the masses, just like the German homosexuals of the 1940s. Nowadays they BOTH just get beaten to pulp by thick-necked nationalists with flags tatooed on their arms. What's the difference?

BTW, I'm not a Nazi and have no qualms with homosexuality, except for that one dyke who punched me in the back on the head at a gig. That was her problem.

On topic, the tank looks great - lacking in frontage on the frontside armour though. Needs eagles/icons/heraldry if your army is so inclined... You could have the heavy bolter popping out of that front hatch, perhaps? Other than that just an engine that makes no mechanical sense mounted in an unlikely position, and you've got a 40K vehicle!

EDIT: This thread has inspried me to start a North Korean styled army comprised of black lesbian jews in wheelchairs. Open a thread if you have any good suggestions for that.