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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 09:58:57
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Fresh-Faced New User
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This SW psychic ability grants always strike first to the unit.
Does this mean PFs and Thunder Hammers strike first as well, since the rulebook states that these are not affected by Initiative modifiers, but the SW psychic ability just grants strike first rather than an initiative bonus?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 10:41:18
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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You should post rules quotes to help make answers more liable to refer to the rulebook.
I haven't, because you didn't.
By RAW, if that's how it's worded...sure.
I personally think there's something you are missing, though it's quite possible you aren't. Lots of loopholes.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 11:03:14
Subject: Re:Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Fresh-Faced New User
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I will post the rules references when I get back. The stormcaller ability is worded exactly as per the DE Wyches strike first ability.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 11:13:30
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Frenzied Berserker Terminator
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From the Codex:
...This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn.
Emphasis mine. Remember that this rule was written in 3rd edition (!) so refers to rules that are no longer in effect (or are no longer quite the same).
The "and so" part can be read as either a reminder on how cover works (well, worked), or as an amendment to how the rules work. I tend to lean towards the former, and just apply the current cover rules and treat any enemy assaulting that unit as having Initiative 1. Not precisely RAW (they didn't make a difficult terrain test...), but it feels like the least messy solution.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2008/09/24 11:15:45
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 11:20:52
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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That's not how GW rules work.
The unit gets a 5+ cover save (this IS in the main rulebook) not a 4+.
If it says strike first, they strike first. Simple as that. First means first means first, after all.
You are right it IS messy. Very much so.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 12:18:22
Subject: Re:Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Regular Dakkanaut
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According to the 5E main rule book, p42:
[A]ttacks with a power fist are always delivered at Initiative 1 (ignore Initiative bonuses from special rules, wargear, etc.).
I'd say that means the SW PF would still go last.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 19:32:22
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Proud Phantom Titan
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ah ha but the rule doesn't give them an Initiative bonuse, it lets them go first, so the power fist still strike first even against I10 models ... nasty rule but thats what you get with a codex that far out of date
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 19:38:11
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Fixture of Dakka
.................................... Searching for Iscandar
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Essentially here's what happens:
I have ASF.
You don't.
We go in I order.
In the ASF phase, I strike at I4 then I1.
Then you go in the normal non-ASF phase.
Welcome to broken rule hell. Enjoy your stay.
Gav will be along shortly...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 20:05:29
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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1st Lieutenant
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See the way I read it the 'will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn' is preceded by the phrase 'and so' that's a conditional clause, the second bit is true because the first bit is.
The first bit 'This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes' that's the bot that counts, this is what the book says the power does. The conditional bit is based on the first part, so the model counts as being in cover, that means it has a 4+ cover save.
The 'and strike first' bit is the hard bit, cover as we know has changed, but it says strike first not strike as in cover so whilst RAI and common sense say one thing RAW may win there. Now as far as fists go, as someone pointed out it says 'always strike at I1' so you have the classic irresistible force vs immovable object, now you can say rulebook overrides codex or codex overrides rulebook, or do the system ofdice for it as both are always right.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/24 20:35:53
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Executing Exarch
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Cheexsta wrote:From the Codex:
...This unit counts as being in cover for rules purposes and so will receive a 5+ cover save and will strike first in close combat until the end of the following enemy turn.
Balzac wrote:According to the 5E main rule book, p42:
[A]ttacks with a power fist are always delivered at Initiative 1 (ignore Initiative bonuses from special rules, wargear, etc.).
Seems clear to me. Normal guys go first because that's what the rule says. Power fist goes at Initiative 1 because the rules state that they ALWAYS go at initiative 1. There is nothing in the codex rule that would contradict the ALWAYS stated in the main rules. Now if the codex said that they always go first, then you would have a quandry, but with it stated as it is, things that let you ignore cover (like frag grenades) and such would be an effective counter to stormcaller (since it specificaly states that the benifits are due to cover).
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**** Phoenix ****
Threads should be like skirts: long enough to cover what's important but short enough to keep it interesting. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/25 04:12:57
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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[ADMIN]
Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I'm with Reaver83, the Stormcaller rules simply do not say anything coherent as written currently. There just is no way to play 'RAW' with this power.
The bonus granted is because the unit is in cover, but the ability of cover no longer grants the bonus implied by the rule.
The key is that the power causes the unit to count as being in cover. Everything else in the rule is just an expression of what being in cover grants and is completely incorrect with the current rules.
If anything, the power does nothing in close combat currently because a unit being 'in cover' means nothing in the current rules if the enemy doesn't have to make a difficult terrain check to reach them.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/25 07:00:47
Subject: Re:Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Just to clarify
The second printing of the SW codex states that you only go first if assaulted. Alot of SW players still think they can go first when assaulting. This was cleared up in the 3d edition FAQ, and the actual rules in 4th edition, and is clear if you have that 2nd printing of the SW codex.
Note that in both the 4th edition rules and 5th edition rules, it says power firsts and thunder hammers always strike at I1, regardless of special rules etc. This covers Stormcaller.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2008/09/25 11:40:54
Subject: Stormcaller - Space Wolf Psychic Ability
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Fixture of Dakka
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agreed that power fists and thunder hammers always strike last.
G
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