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Hi all,

Say a squad of 10 burna boyz want to shoot at a unit with their flamer templates, then charge into CC in the proceeding assault phase. Could 5 in the squad choose to fire their burnas in shooting, whilst 5 wait until the assault phase such that from the unit of 10 you get 5 flamer templates in the shooting phase and then 5 power weapons in the assault phase?

As the entry in the codex says "A burna may be used in the Shooting Phase..., or as a power weapon..., but not both in the same turn.", I would say your example is perfectly legal as the entry gives no restriction to the unit as a whole.

I don't see anyting wrong with it either.

I'll compare it to a SM captain - they can get a bolter, bolt pistol and power wep if they pay for them (sorry no dex on me). They can choose to shoot the bolter but loose the ability to assult - however they can choose to shoot the bolt pisol and then charge...then again they could choose to just assult.

Sorry if the comparison if flawed or makes no since.

i agree perfectly legal ... just make sure you leave some sort of marker so you know who/how many have fired ... may be the orks that fired are turned so they don't face the unit?

Actually, Tri... that shouldn't even matter. If they're all outfitted the same (no Mek), then 5 is 5.


Eric

in a perfect world they all get in to CC ... i'm talking about the time when 3 don't make it (ie difficult terrain)

and if 5 have fired then they're not all outfitted the same as 5 have power weapons and 5 don't

Tri wrote:in a perfect world they all get in to CC ... i'm talking about the time when 3 don't make it (ie difficult terrain)

and if 5 have fired then they're not all outfitted the same as 5 have power weapons and 5 don't

Still doesn't matter.
As long as they're all within 2", all the PW attacks will still get their full complement of attacks, and you can just take any wounds off of the ones that used them as flamers.

See, just because they are attacking using a different application of the weapons, they are still all outfitted the same. They all have burnas... they just used them differently.

It's not shady, stretching or against the rules. You go by what wargear, armore, etc. they possess. They all possess the same stuff.


Eric

? right so you move all your orks in tight groups? no?

-ok fire off 5 of ten flamers your going to be use the ones at the front (they're closer and can get more people that way) now you charge into difficult terrain ... oh no you roll a 2 ... only one ork will make the charge (one of the flamer users since he was closer) all the other flamer users are within 2" but none of the power weapons are ... the deffender reacts (moves up to 6" to get in CC) but they only just reach (since they to were spred out and you killed off some of the closer guys) ... none of the power wepon users are with in 2" so you get no power weapon attacks that assualt

this is a worst case ... its not going to happen if you jump off a battle wagon ... but its going to happen.

Well, you're talking about a worst-case, doomsday scenario.
If you're so far away from your opponent that you're at risk of not making the charge, then forget the possibility that only one guy will get into base-to-base... You shouldn't be using your flamers if there's a possibility of losing the charge. After all, if you get a couple kills, he just takes out the closest models and F's up your charge, anyway.

Plus...now you're just adding stuff in.

I answered your original question:

Say a squad of 10 burna boyz want to shoot at a unit with their flamer templates, then charge into CC in the proceeding assault phase. Could 5 in the squad choose to fire their burnas in shooting, whilst 5 wait until the assault phase such that from the unit of 10 you get 5 flamer templates in the shooting phase and then 5 power weapons in the assault phase?

A; Yes. They can.

Now, as for this question:

right so you move all your orks in tight groups?

Sometimes. It depends on what I'm doing with them. If, for example, I'm going to be flaming a unit with 5 burnas, then attempting to assault what's left with 5 power weapons... I sure am. I'm going to try by best to get them packed in a 5x2 rectangle, to be certain that I get as many power weapons in the assault as possible.

Also, I WILL be using the ones in the front. Not just because they're closer and can touch more enemy models... but, also, because the ones in the back will, most likely, not be able to shoot, since their burnas will probably overlap my own models, making it "illegal" to use that burna. In the formation I mentioned above, that would DEFINITELY be the case.

Additionally, you said it wouldn't happen if you jumped off of a BW. While, it COULD happen, with poor deployment, I agree that the likelyhood is minimal, at best.

The question, though, is why someone would be advancing burna boys on foot, since they're such an expensive, fragile unit. You HAVE to have them in a trukk or Battlewagon (I prefer Trukks) to keep them safe (ish).

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:Well, you're talking about a worst-case, doomsday scenario.

There is another worst case - Orks are slow even with Furious Charge. If the Burnas happen to take more wounds than you counted on before getting to strike you might have to take saves for the ones with power weapons too. That could of course be handled without knowing which physical model it was.

The important stuff is that only engaged models can strike but any model can have wounds allocated to it. That's reason enough to make it clear where the power weapons are.

ah good point Spetulhu. Another good reason for marking out which guys have fired ...

"5x2 rectangle" must be great if you can move into assault range and have enough movement to box up

Spetulhu wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:Well, you're talking about a worst-case, doomsday scenario.

There is another worst case - Orks are slow even with Furious Charge. If the Burnas happen to take more wounds than you counted on before getting to strike you might have to take saves for the ones with power weapons too. That could of course be handled without knowing which physical model it was.

That's, really, a non issue.
When you fail what meager saves you get, you simply remove the ones that fired the burnas FIRST, then remove any excess from the PW's. It's standard Burna Boy HtH tactics. That's why you fire with half before charging (presuming you're not risking messing up your charge).

Spetulhu wrote:The important stuff is that only engaged models can strike but any model can have wounds allocated to it. That's reason enough to make it clear where the power weapons are.

I'm sorry. I just don't see where you're saying anything new here.

Tri wrote:ah good point Spetulhu. Another good reason for marking out which guys have fired ...

"5x2 rectangle" must be great if you can move into assault range and have enough movement to box up

Again... the "rectangle" was based on the fact that, as I said, I always put them into a transport and drive them up until (a) I can assault or (b) the transport gets blown up.
Obviously, you won't always be able to get them into the rectangle formation. If you can, though, you should.

Also, I think we're diverging, really, on only one small detail.

We both seem to agree that the 5 & 5 is a valid tactic and within the scope of the rules. the difference being that you're "arguing" (I use the term generically, not with negativity) that the OP should be sure to mark who shot so that he removes the right ones when combat ensues, while I'm saying it shouldn't matter.

It seems you're taking a more pessimistic view of it in presuming that not everyone will get close enough to throw attacks in hth, while I'm presuming that the player will use intelligent deployment to ensure that they do.
Does that sum it up about right?

I can see what you're saying and, to a real a-hole of an opponent, it might matter.
If, however, you get the WHOLE unit within 2", they in the long run, it shouldn't really matter which models you pull off (barring "special characters" in your opponents squad and the like) if you ACCIDENTALLY grab the wrong model... as the PW attacks would have gotten to swing, anyway. KWIM

Eric

fair enough ... but one problem if you remove the non-power weapon burn boyz first you might not be in CC any more (^_^) models with in 2" of a model in base combat ... wait they're all dead we can't attack back ...
... also if you take ,say, 6 wounds one will have to be rolled on an ork with a power weapon (for this phase they aren't identical equiped)

real a-hole of an opponent ? one way of looking at them ... though techicaly they...(no i'll included myself in this)... we'd be right in asking for this, as it can make a huge difference to the combat ...

Magic, i think we'll just have to agree to disagree about the importance of marking who's got what on the burna boyz

MagickalMemories wrote:That's, really, a non issue.
When you fail what meager saves you get, you simply remove the ones that fired the burnas FIRST, then remove any excess from the PW's.

Move on to 5th edition, my good man. You assign wounds to models before rolling saves. Those killed at a certain Initiative step before their own don't get to strike anyone at all. And guys with power weapons are surely different than guys without power weapons.

Not in this case. They're all equipped with burnas.

think of them more like a unit of combi-weapon half of them have fired so are differently armed ... only difference is next phase the burna are all the same again

Tri wrote:fair enough ... but one problem if you remove the non-power weapon burn boyz first you might not be in CC any more (^_^) models with in 2" of a model in base combat ... wait they're all dead we can't attack back ...
... also if you take ,say, 6 wounds one will have to be rolled on an ork with a power weapon (for this phase they aren't identical equiped)

OKay... a couple problems with your reasoning.

First.. Let's say that, on initiative 4, you take X number of wounds and fail your saves on 5 (assuming the "5 shot, 5 didn't" scenario) and you remove all the ones that shot. Even assuming that ONLY those 5 were in base to base, you will STILL get your attacks from the ones that are NOT in base to base. Fifth edition changed the way you judge who gets to attack.
Basically, since they WOULD HAVE gotten their attack at the beginning of the turn, the only way to remove that ability is to kill them. Models who were engaged at the beginning of combat WILL get to attack at their initiative as long as (a) THEY are alive and (b) there is at least one model from their original target unit alive at their initiative step.

In regards to your comment about them not being identical... you need to look at the ork codex again. Burna Boys are not, under any circumstances, equipped with power weapons. they are equipped with burnas. Now, in the assault phase, a burna MAY be used as a power weapon... but it is STILL a burna that they are using.

Tri wrote:Magic, i think we'll just have to agree to disagree about the importance of marking who's got what on the burna boyz

Perhaps, but only slightly. It seems to me that you are saying to mark them and I'm saying that you should just remember which are which. Six of one, half dozen of the other. I honestly see this as less of a concern than our "power weapon" difference above. Your opinion seriously hinders the Burna Boyz' effectiveness.

Spetulhu wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:That's, really, a non issue.
When you fail what meager saves you get, you simply remove the ones that fired the burnas FIRST, then remove any excess from the PW's.

Move on to 5th edition, my good man. You assign wounds to models before rolling saves. Those killed at a certain Initiative step before their own don't get to strike anyone at all. And guys with power weapons are surely different than guys without power weapons.

Actually LEARN the 5th edition rules before correcting people on them, my good man.

Since you have TEN burnas who are equipped THE SAME, you roll, THEN remove. None have POWER WEAPONS. They all have BURNAS. While there might be occasion in which the two act similarly, they are not, in fact, the same thing (see above). If they were, I'd equip all of my power weapon Marines & CSM with burnas... since they're the same.


Eric

Tri wrote:think of them more like a unit of combi-weapon half of them have fired so are differently armed ... only difference is next phase the burna are all the same again

... and that would be an incorrect assessment.

You can't think of them as combi weapons, as they're not. They're burnas.

Also... and I'm not going to delve into THIS disagreement any further, as it's off topic... Just because a combi-weapon has fired, that does NOT make its' wielder "differently armed" than those who have already shot. All models, having shot or not, are still equipped with combi weapons. A combi weapon will ALWAYS be a combi weapon, whether it's used it's "special" half, or not. That is the only factor that matters when deciding if they're differently armed.


Eric

Getting treated differently isn't just wargear, it's also "special rules". And I'd think those who didn't fire their Burnas have a special rule in CC, they count as having power weapons.

This is off topic, but brought up something that for some reason has people disagreeing on. Its amazing to see a rule that is so simple get put on its head when it is interpreted by different people with different views.

Good points all. and this is how I view it...

Whether you you say that they are 'using' a different weapon from those that did fire in the shooting phase, or some special rule that allows them to use the exact same weapon with the exact same rule in the assault phase has nothing to due with the rule in my opinion.

Remember the rule is for 'complex units'. For them to be not complex units they have to have:

1) same profile of characteristics (check)
2) same special rules (check)
3) same weapons and wargear (check)

Well, the kicker seems to be the 'special rules' for some posters (good point too), this is very similar to the combi-weapon stance, but the difference is that combi-weapons are used only once and once used changes the profile of the weapon permanently which is unlike the burna, so lets look at it from a gaming POV.

They all have the same special rule correct, just the ability to use the weapon differently if it didn't shoot. That does not make any unit who did shoot any different, as they *still* retain that same special rule as those who didn't, they just can't use their weapon as a power weapon, yet the special rule did not go away, it just has a pre-requisite that some burnas didn't meet and others did, rule didn't change, just the use of a pre-requisite which will 'reset' at the end of the assault phase.

This is very similar to saying to a chaos player that because his obliterators used different weapons, they are now different (I really don't know if they can do that, don't have the codex, but hypothetically, if they could).

An ork burna boy does not change at all compared to his fellows, the weapon stays the same, their special rule stays the same. The only thing that changes is their use of the same weapon in CC after meeting the same pre-requisite that his other burna buddies did not meet.

Ok... I've opened a whole can of worms here

Now just to encourage a bit more discussion...

10 burna boyz, five fire at a unit using templates, the boyz all then charge, everyone makes combat and 5 from the unit make power weapon attacks, the rest make normal attacks. At the end of the assault phase the burna boyz have taken 3 wounds but the combat stays locked. Next assault phase, how many of the burna boyz count as being armed with power weapons? The way I look at it, none of them will have fired their burnas using a template in the preceeding shooting phase, so all 7 remaining boyz should get the power weapon attacks.

Also, just to clarify, *Power Weapons* go in initiative order as opposed to *Power Fists* or *Power Klaws* right?

The orks just struggle with having a craptastic initiative so will strike second in most combats anyway.

Correct?

"Your opinion seriously hinders the Burna Boyz' effectiveness." yep guess it does ... but that’s my reading of the how complex units works ...I see it as a way to make sure that everyone takes some saves (unlike 4th where you took the saves then removed people you wanted to saving that power weapon or that H.weapon) ... if a unit is a mix of power weapons and normal CC weapons I want to know who and where (even if there all armed with Burna)

“This is very similar to saying to a chaos player that because his obliterators used different weapons, they are now different (I really don't know if they can do that, don't have the codex, but hypothetically, if they could)” ... more mud in the water ... if they can use different weapons in CC (can’t remember what weapons they can morph), power weapon & power fist, I’d say yes ... at range they’ve all the same

Unless any one wants to chime in with a decisive argument ether way I guess we should just let this thread die ... or get a thread of our own going

edit ... yes *Power Weapons* go in initiative order and they'll now all have power weapons (but they'll now be at normal Str & Ini since F.Charge is over)

Nuclear Mekanik wrote:Ok... I've opened a whole can of worms here

Now just to encourage a bit more discussion...

10 burna boyz, five fire at a unit using templates, the boyz all then charge, everyone makes combat and 5 from the unit make power weapon attacks, the rest make normal attacks. At the end of the assault phase the burna boyz have taken 3 wounds but the combat stays locked. Next assault phase, how many of the burna boyz count as being armed with power weapons? The way I look at it, none of them will have fired their burnas using a template in the preceeding shooting phase, so all 7 remaining boyz should get the power weapon attacks.

Yes. They would all use their PW profile, as it's a different turn.

Also... YES. PW's go in initiative order.


Eric