Necron Monolith vs "augmented strength."

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Eternal Newb**

Kevin949 wrote:For future reference, a careful reading of the rules, a review of the Necron FAQ's, and consultation with GW Fairfax indicates that the Orks should have received both the x2 str of the PK and the +1 of the Furious Charge.]"

GW stores have a history of being wrong.

For example, saying that you can use Hellfire Shells in any Bolt weapon. So that kinda falls flat.

**Kevin949**

Well I'm inclined to believe them over anyone saying you strike at 0 +d6 in CC against a monolith.

And just because GW stores have been wrong doesn't mean people on the internet aren't. *Shrug*

**Eternal Newb**

Agree to disagree then!

Anyways, on topic, I see this more as a "how you would play it" more than a direct ruling.

**visavismeyou**

RobPro wrote:Your argument breaks down when we include Wych Blades and Relic Blades into the mix. You haven't addressed them at all.

Yes I have, because your point does not preclude the fact that Furious Charge still does not augment the strength of any weapon... EVER...

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kevin949 wrote:OK, this was taken from this batrep -

"[Here came the game's only rules dispute, as Necronoob and D'Ork try to determine how the Monolith's Living Metal special rule (which limits the armor penetration and strength bonuses of attacks against the 'lith) interacts with the Power Klaw and the Furious Charge rule. We decide to give the Orks the doubled strength of the PK, but not the +1 Strength of the Furious Charge. For future reference, a careful reading of the rules, a review of the Necron FAQ's, and consultation with GW Fairfax indicates that the Orks should have received both the x2 str of the PK and the +1 of the Furious Charge.]"

http://wasted-knights.blogspot.com/2010/05/orks-vs-necrons-2000-points-april-30.html

Rather interesting.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eternal Newb wrote:GW stores have a history of being wrong.

For example, saying that you can use Hellfire Shells in any Bolt weapon. So that kinda falls flat.

Association does not entail necessity, just because some GW stores have made bad calls does not necessitate that all GW store's calls are going to be bad.

**RobPro**

Ok, but how do Wychblades get to strike at S9 against vehicles if you use the strength of the models instead? How do relic blades get to strike at S6? You haven't offered any explanations for any of those cases.

**visavismeyou**

Eternal Newb wrote:Agree to disagree then!

Anyways, on topic, I see this more as a "how you would play it" more than a direct ruling.

Really? Irrespective of the fact that at no time does furious charge ever augment a weapon? And the Living Metal rule only talks about weapons?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

RobPro wrote:Ok, but how do Wychblades get to strike at S9 against vehicles if you use the strength of the models instead? How do relic blades get to strike at S6? You haven't offered any explanations for any of those cases.

I am not going to respond to either of those cases, want to know why? They are completely irrelevant to whether or not Furious Charge works against the Monolith... Furious charge augments the model, the model with power fists are assaulting a monolith, thus the model gets the +1 str.

I will talk about extraordinary cases after you admit that furious charge augments models. Neither of those cases are relevant to furious charge.

**Kharnflakes**

RobPro wrote:Ok, but how do Wychblades get to strike at S9 against vehicles if you use the strength of the models instead? How do relic blades get to strike at S6? You haven't offered any explanations for any of those cases.

wychblades and relic blades get to strike at those strengths because they have a special rule that say they do. exactly like a the wolf tooth necklace says the model always hits on a 3+ even though it has a ws. your mentioning oranges when the discussions about apples. the living metal rule is pretty specific in what it dosent allow i.e extra dice to penetrate armour .

**Eternal Newb**

visavismeyou wrote:
Really? Irrespective of the fact that at no time does furious charge ever augment a weapon? And the Living Metal rule only talks about weapons?

*shrug* Considering how this entire thread has gone literally no where, seeing it as "how would you play it" would be a much simpler then arguing in circles.

**visavismeyou**

RobPro wrote:Ok, but how do Wychblades get to strike at S9 against vehicles if you use the strength of the models instead? How do relic blades get to strike at S6? You haven't offered any explanations for any of those cases.

While I am waiting on you to respond to me I will respond to your 2 points.

Witchblades

These psychically attuned weapons are often carried by
Eldar psykers. All hits scored in close combat by models
armed with a witchblade inflict wounds on a roll of 2+,
regardless of the target’s Toughness. Armour saves are
taken as normal. Against vehicles, the wielder of a
witchblade counts his Strength as 9.

"The wielder ... counts his strength as 9"
... quite obvious... The living metal rules do not talk about this case, thus, use the rules as written, thus a model with a witchblade attacking a monolith will penetrate with s9+d6.

Relic Blade
Since the Relic Blade does not have a profile, the living metal rule does not speak about it, as such follow the rules as they are written, the hits are resolved at s6... simple...

More questions?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Eternal Newb wrote:
visavismeyou wrote:
Really? Irrespective of the fact that at no time does furious charge ever augment a weapon? And the Living Metal rule only talks about weapons?

*shrug* Considering how this entire thread has gone literally no where, seeing it as "how would you play it" would be a much simpler then arguing in circles.

I've yet to argue in circles, I've pointed out facts... They're quite clear. I think it is important that the community understand the rules as written as opposed the rules as some people wish them to be (Such as Nos and Rob).

**Stormrider**

RobPro wrote:Ok, but how do Wychblades get to strike at S9 against vehicles if you use the strength of the models instead? How do relic blades get to strike at S6? You haven't offered any explanations for any of those cases.

Do Wychblades or Relic Blades affect the Monolith's AV? No. Do they get extra D6 in CC? No. Do they rend? No. Do they hit at a set strength in Close Combat? Yes. The Relic Blade can't hurt a Monolith, the Withcblade has a chance.

These weapons hit at a strength, regardless of who wields them, PF's/PK's are conditionally strong based on who holds them.

The argument about FC is over in my eyes. FC doesn't affect the AV and doesn't grant an additional armor penetration dice. I think the implication with the phrase "no matter what" was to prevent people from rolling 2D6 against the armor. Which having FC clearly does not do.

Also, wasn't that Codex stealth re-written in 3rd edition still? I've got a first Edition Codex and wonder what the patent date is on the back of the 2nd edition codex.

FC and TH weren't inversal rules at the time. (I think)

**Sliggoth**

People, please read the rules.

For witchblades we find: "the wielder of a witchblade counts his Strength as 9."

The wielder is strength 9 when using a witchblade....nothing, not one single scrap of information, suggests anything here other than that the model's strength has been set to 9. A lot like the effect of a power fist, except that the witchblade dosnt double, it picks a specific number.

READ the rules. The model is striking at strength 9.

Sliggoth

**deffdakka**

why not just accept this is all jargon.

THEY FAQed THIS READ THE FAQ POWERFIST WORK!!!!!!!!!!

and stop being gits....

but no furious charge does not work....as mentioned in living metal....

**Eternal Newb**

deffdakka wrote:

why not just accept this is all jargon.

THEY FAQed THIS READ THE FAQ POWERFIST WORK!!!!!!!!!!

and stop being gits....

but no furious charge does not work....as mentioned in living metal....

No one is arguing about Power Fists. Furious Charge is the one in question.

It seems more that FC does work as it is for the model not the weapon.

**Kharnflakes**

deffdakka wrote:

why not just accept this is all jargon.

THEY FAQed THIS READ THE FAQ POWERFIST WORK!!!!!!!!!!

and stop being gits....

but no furious charge does not work....as mentioned in living metal....

it says no where in living metal that fc dosen't work, what it does mention is melta and lance weapons. btw all the faq says is that powerfists work but chainfists dont get the extra d6 armour pen

**Jimole**

Everything that is specifically mentioned as not working on living metal has an effect that gets applied once the attack has actually hit. FC's affect is applied when the model assaults.

Add to this that FC doesn't buff a weapon, its buffs a model, and a model is not a weapon, and it seems pretty clear that FC does in fact work on a Monolith.

Angry guy is stronger than normal guy. What's the big deal?

**Stormrider**

Jimole wrote:Everything that is specifically mentioned as not working on living metal has an effect that gets applied once the attack has actually hit. FC's affect is applied when the model assaults.

Add to this that FC doesn't buff a weapon, its buffs a model, and a model is not a weapon, and it seems pretty clear that FC does in fact work on a Monolith.

Angry guy is stronger than normal guy. What's the big deal?

+1, right on the money.

**visavismeyou**

deffdakka wrote:but no furious charge does not work....as mentioned in living metal....

what?! lol

so you apparently havn't read what i've said. Please, I quote both living metal and furious charge below, tell me how they interact in anyway.

Furious Charge augments the strength of a model.

visavismeyou wrote:First, in order to find out if living metal interacts with some other rule, we must find out if the other rule fits the scope or context of the living weapon rules. Thus, we look at the context of the strength clause of the living metal rule. The strength clause starts out by narrowing down to "any weapon", thus the context is that this rule will interact with the rules for weapons somehow. This leaves out models, abilities, terrain, deployment and anything else in the game that you can talk about, the context is weapons and weapons alone; [Note: I will not attempt to delve into any speculation of what the writers were intending at this time, I will simply speak about the words on the page, with that said, I have a very cogent speculative argument in addition to this flawless logical analysis argument.] Then the strength clause moves on to make a distinction about how it interacts with the relevant weapon rules; specifically, the strength clause states, "[weapons used against the monolith] ...will roll for armour penetration using >its< unaugmented strength and a single d6". In this segment the strength clause clearly use the possessive pronoun, "its" to refer back to "weapon". Thus we can decipher this sentence to mean, "Weapons used against the monolith will roll d6+ the weapon's unaugmented strength".

Thus, weapons that do not have a strength value are not within the context; furthermore since the words, "weapon" and "model" are not synonymous, the living metal rules do not talk about how furious charge augments the strength of a model and as such the living metal rule does not interfere with the furious charge rules; it is all about context, if a rule is outside the context of living metal, then it is not affected by it.

My argument, tersely stated, is: Since a model's strength is outside the context of the living metal rule, the living metal rule does not interfere with any method of augmenting a model's strength.

I color coded my argument, Cyan is my evidence, Green is my conclusion.

Text of Furious Charge:

Models with this skill are known for the wild ferocity of
their assaults. In a turn in which they assaulted into
combat they add +1 to both their Initiative and Strength
characteristics when attacking in close combat (note
that this has no effect on the Initiative tests for
sweeping advances).

Text of Living Metal

Kevin949 wrote:The monolith is made of living necron metal which is not only self-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks. Attacks which count the targets armour value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the monolith. Similarily, weaapons that get additional armour penetration dice (such as chainfists, monstrous creatures or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the monolith. Ordnance weapons still roll 2d6 for armour penetration and select the highest score. In practice, any weapon attacking the monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Jimole wrote:Angry guy is stronger than normal guy. What's the big deal?

LOL! A friend of mine blew up when I told him that people think FC does not work again Living Metal and he said, "How is living metal going to stop me from being angry?!?".

**Kevin949**

RobPro wrote:Ok, but how do Wychblades get to strike at S9 against vehicles if you use the strength of the models instead? How do relic blades get to strike at S6? You haven't offered any explanations for any of those cases.

I thought that was addressed because it said the hits were resolved at S6 or S9, which would be unaugmented weapon str at that point.

Honestly, I think the problem with the living metal rule is because they used the word Strength. If they had just gotten a little more granular with it stating "Close combat hits are resolved as normal but only ever get a single D6 for penetration" it might have been better.

**visavismeyou**

Kevin949 wrote:
RobPro wrote:Ok, but how do Wychblades get to strike at S9 against vehicles if you use the strength of the models instead? How do relic blades get to strike at S6? You haven't offered any explanations for any of those cases.

I thought that was addressed because it said the hits were resolved at S6 or S9, which would be unaugmented weapon str at that point.

Honestly, I think the problem with the living metal rule is because they used the word Strength. If they had just gotten a little more granular with it stating "Close combat hits are resolved as normal but only ever get a single D6 for penetration" it might have been better.

Oh yea, I wont deny at all its terribly written, but it does have a function and as it is written now, its function is to deny all strength augmentation to weapons.